Because I have never owned any very high end gear I’m wondering if an $8000 integrated amp will sound jaw dropping better than a $5000 one? Right now my system is Parasound JC2 and SMC Audio DNA1 Gold.
High cost doesn’t always mean better.... take pair of Quicksilver Mid Mono amps. They were $1900 when new in ‘13 and haven’t gone up much since . Will walk all over many amps that cost more.
Well I’ve been searching YouTube about room treatment. Just go there and check it out. That’s the reason most people don’t do it right. It is so complicated.
Exactly right....
And acoustic company SELL EASY SOLUTIONS APPLICABE FOR ALL... Not an optimal room for your specific ears and specific audio system...
It takes me one year of DAILY listening experiment to figure it out...( i am retired)
The price of an acoustically optimal room would be out of the purse of almost everybody....
I created mine at no cost, but it is ugly , low cost for sure, but so powerful in S.Q. improvement that any upgrade seems unneccessary even if for sure i will improve by upgrading around 15,000 bucks my 500 bucks system now.... It was my reward to be able to be happy at last with what i have with no huge insatisfaction...
Audio thread sells upgrade mania not acoustic knowledge....Guess why?
Acoustic is the sleeping princess and all pieces of gear are only the 7 working dwarves....
My point is acoustic passive treatment and mechanical active control is superior in improvement to almost any upgrade of a piece of gear IF YOUR AUDIO SYSTEM IS ALREADY WELL CHOSEN FIRST FOR SURE...My system value is 500 bucks but very well chosen..What i say anyway is applicable to system at any price....
Secondly 95% at least of rooms lack to be acoustically at their optimum in relation to the specfic ears and speakers of the owner.. ( even mine because i dont pretend to have created the perfect room)
Third A dedicated audio room for the system, not a living room, is the ONLY luxury and costly element in ANY system done right....
it is my experience...
Of course you listen to an amp! You also listen to the preamp/dac/tt/cart/cables. You are assuming that nobody sets up their audio rooms properly. When you start talking about hifi, you should have the basics already covered, and you start with the room. If your room isn’t treated properly, why would you think of wasting your money on hifi equipment?
Well I've been searching YouTube about room treatment. Just go there and check it out. That's the reason most people don't do it right. It is so complicated.
In general the relationship is true. But, it is complicated in reality. There are “sound types”… what companies are going for. If you switch from a company that produces the kind of sound you like to a sound you don’t, then that relationship may not sound true to you. Also, there are all sorts of new companies trying to break in… they may produce sound at a higher level of quality for the price… or it might have a sonic flaw you didn’t at first notice (red face, “oh Schiit, what did I do? moment”) But to take advantage of these… it takes even more work and more risk.
With caveats, my rule is that for a 2x or more increase in cost of any component you get a “wow! That sounds a lot better!… with a well chosen and compatible pieces of equipment… because in general the market is efficient… rewarding better sound with price.
All of the major purchases I have made after the first five years in high end audio have successfully supported the 2x rule… so for 45 years. But I do lots of research, and understand, and can read in between the lines of professional reviews. I know the vocabulary and read about my components and all that I hear. This takes lots of experience. But, can be what makes this such a rewarding pursuit, or make you think it is all bunk.
"Incredible that people think they listen to an amplifier.... For sure they sound different but most of what we listen to relate to the room acoustic coupling with the speakers...
Money dont buy audio experience with upgrading gear...
Acoustic do....
I dont say that acoustic is important i say it is essential...."
Sorry to hear you were not able to hear differences in amplifier sound. I upgraded mine a few days ago. Put it in the same position, etc, etc, with only 1 other upgrade, which was a new speaker cable. It sounds vastly different, I could the vast improvement of it. The price of the old and new amp, the gap is from $1K to $5k, so perhaps its easier in my case. Perhaps it's harder to hear those differences between $10k vs $20K amps.
Probably because buying gear is easy. Room treatment in a science. Gotta find the right folks to do it. How do you find that right person? In a big city it might be easier. Who knows when a room is "right"? Some yahoo might come in and screw it all up. It's pretty easy to slap up some panels and stuff. My cousin has treated his room with fake Christmas trees! He must have 15 or 20 in there. Seems to work pretty good. Just weird. Any ideas?
"Incredible that people think they listen to an amplifier.... For sure they sound different but most of what we listen to relate to the room acoustic coupling with the speakers...
Money dont buy audio experience with upgrading gear...
Acoustic do....
I dont say that acoustic is important i say it is essential...."
Of course you listen to an amp! You also listen to the preamp/dac/tt/cart/cables. You are assuming that nobody sets up their audio rooms properly. When you start talking about hifi, you should have the basics already covered, and you start with the room. If your room isn't treated properly, why would you think of wasting your money on hifi equipment?
IMO it will depend on what the higher price is for. Are you paying a higher price for one amp over another because there are higher quality components used? Are you paying a higher price for a proprietary design or circuit board? Are you paying a higher price for a better built product that brings tech support and help.
Or are you paying a higher price for an amp that is not built well with low cost components, off the shelf circuit boards. Are you paying more to cover marketing and advertising costs that add nothing to the sound. Are you paying more for an amp from a company that has to pay retail rent, heat, electric, and employees to sell them. Are you paying more for an amp that is sold by an independent dealer with a 200% mark up yo cover his business cost.
I would end with the answer to your question as being yes a more expensive amp can sound way better based on price if you are putting your money into areas that add to the sound not the fring costs that add nothing to the sound only to the cost.
There are plenty of vintage amps available for less than $1K that sound as good as any of today's over-priced gear! I paid around $900 for a Perreaux 2150B - 340/680/920wpc @8/4/2 ohms. Sounds as good as any four/five figure amp!
Assuming legit manufacturers, etc, a $150,000 preamp+amp(s) combo will always sound better than a $5000 integrated.
I would agree with this. Personally I don’t think you need to go up to $150k worth of preamp+power amp to beat a $5k integrated. A $50k pre power should show a $5k integrated a clean pair of heels. Having said that, to me, a quality integrated starts somewhere at $7k, new prices. The higher you go the better it sounds but one has to pick carefully, of course. Aspects such as preferences, point of diminishing returns etc. will be applicable.
As mentioned earlier, some amps may be disguised to look $8k but sound like a $2k.
I’d humbly propose widening the lens. Assuming legit manufacturers, etc, a $150,000 preamp+amp(s) combo will always sound better than a $5000 integrated. It just will, even to the most jaded among us. Sure sure, you could have your quips, but it won’t be a serious comparison. So, in a sense, “a lot more expensive” usually does sound better. Turning to the OP’s specifics, comparing an $8000 amp to a $5000 amp could be pretty much like comparing a Coke to a Pepsi. (Except without the decades of history proving that Coke is better.)
I think about it in categories, just as a rough guide. 5-10k amplifiers, for example, are all on the same footing. Use your ears. 5 v 20? Decent chance 20 wins. 5 v 50? I’d bet a chunk of cash that 50 wins.
You have to compare apples to apples. Price can reflect things such as built-in DAC card, phono section and/or headphone. The casework can add extra cost (engraving, anodizing, finish, CNC artwork, etc.). Also, if it is sold direct it's about half the price a dealer would charge. Can't really generalize an answer on a dollar for dollar basis with respect to sound quality.
At some point some audio equipment became either Art, Or a fashon statement, or both. Your pretty $6000 speaker wire sure sounds nice. I'm sure glad I went to school to learn about such things.
Just moved from Bluesound Powenode 2i to NAD M33. Along with switching from $20 generic cable from Amazon to Black Cat Cable CopperZone FLATWAVE speaker cable. I have tears in my eye.
I was thinking about Hegel H590, how much better it is than the M33, I can't be sure. Those who have heard both said H590 is better, at double the cost and much less functionality also.
In the end, you just have to make peace with it and be happy with your choices, otherwise, you will be chasing ghosts.
No for sure not. Sometimes worse, cost seems to have little factor on sound quality sometimes. Always listen with your own ears and look at the measurements for a sanity check. 1/2 these products are snake oil.
I can think of a bunch of speakers that are made super nice but have bad crossover choices (odd slops, passed after cone breakup, etc) and will never sound right. Most electronics are good these days. If you want something that looks nice or is super powerful go for it but know what you are paying for is looks or headroom you don’t need. I am ok with that personally but keep my head grounded.
The problem with directly correlating sound quality to cost is the elimination of subjective perception.
If a person hates the taste of steak for example, it's not going to matter if it was a 10 dollar steak or a 100 dollar steak. They will likely be unhappy with the taste regardless.
Same sort of principle with audio equipment.
That being said you'll often find worthwhile gains spending more when one does it judiciously.
Well that's why I asked. Great responses. You know my system may be the best I have heard. Doing the room does make the most sense. It's the how that's the unknown. Who is another question.
A more expensive amplifier is not necessarily better. For example, people pay a lot of money for Macintosh when there are other amps around that are far better and cheaper.
Having said this, there are some expensive amps that will give you a superb sound. Ypsilon, German Physics, Audionet for example are not cheap but are superb. There are many others.
Incredible that people think they listen to an amplifier.... For sure they sound different but most of what we listen to relate to the room acoustic coupling with the speakers...
Money dont buy audio experience with upgrading gear...
Acoustic do....
I dont say that acoustic is important i say it is essential....
It's not just about cost it's also about the sound the particular designer is trying to achieve. That may or may not jibe with your ears, a more expensive piece of gear can be objectively better but subjectively worse.
I used to have a DNA-1 for 20 years and it died. Wonderful amplifier. I made the terrible mistake of not keeping it to be rebuilt, because the latest amp mods that SMc is doing, including their "gravity base" system, is said to yield extraordinary results. I am looking for a dead or dying DNA-1 (for $500 or less) to send to Steve to have rebuilt.
If you had your DNA-1 upgraded with the Gravity Base, I think you would have a hard time getting better sound without spending a LOT more money. FWIW.
If you are paying for a name, no, depends on the name, (kind of)
the DNA 1 gold revision, will run circles around a huge swath of gear, and you said, you don’t have experience with high quality audio.
the Parasound JC2 Halo preamp is also top tier gear!
Those two pieces are higher quality, and will sound better than a lot of other gear.
what are your speakers,,,. ?
what is your source,,,?
cables, .??
What you have there is an amazing amp and preamp!
Sheeesh, keep the gear you have, maybe swap some cables, or speakers, need a change? Your source?
do you stream, use CD player,,,? , cd transport to cloud DAC,,?
Gold revision amps are not easy to come by, if your nervous or serious, the best way would be to contact Steve McCormack and Patrick, and send in for the platinum or similar, upgrade, or have a pair of monoblocks made around your existing DNA1 amp!
You will save a bunch of money by McCormack upgrading, or making monoblocks, instead of spending the 8K on a lower powered integrated,,,.?
The Halo JC2 is amazing, and will serve you with her amazing crystal clarity and reliability for many years, adding a upgraded DNA1 platinum Ed or higher will be WELL WORTH MORE THAN spending more $$$
call Steve or Patrick, and talk with them, you will save a ton of money, and come away with one of the best most,amazing stereo or monoblock pair You can afford through McCormack.
I wouldn’t even think twice, the SMC stuff is about as top shelf you can get.
but, if you “think” spending 7500$ on a low powered integrated, which will clip, and not give you the superior WALLOP, SILKY SOUND OF A MCCORMACK with the Halo JC2 combo, go ahead, …..don’t say it was worth it, when you hook it up, and it sounds like a sheet is covering your speakers.
Just being honest, as this is what I would want!
when I was on the fence about a big purchase I made several years ago,..I turned to the people at not just AG, but several forums, it was unanimous, I could not be happier with my amps.
I would ponder long and hard about giving Steve or Pat a call.
I know, I’m a broken record, but a setup like yours is totally worth upgrading through McCormack smc audio
hope this helps.
before you do anything, call and talk to Steve or Pat at smc audio
No it is not certain that a more expensive integrated will sound better than a cheaper one, especially not jaw dropping better.
If you can't listen to the more expensive integrated, preferably in your own system before buying, do a lot of reading and research, buy used and take your chances.
I had a Parasound Halo6 integrated amp @$2500.00 and moved on to a more expensive integrated @$6500.00. It was a night and day difference for the better with the kind of sound where I can’t wait to turn it on daily. The newer integrated is a different brand so that is one reason it sounds different and better to me. My experience may not be the same as yours though.
Have you heard "jaw dropping", sound before? I usually compare systems to mine not the other way around. Are there more expensive systems than mine. LOL Good Lord yes. Could they make me happier if had them? I don't think so.. Especially if I had to pay what some people will actually pay for gear. I'm a Mac guy too. Frugal, YES, Cheap, NO! My jaw has been wired shut for years. :-)
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