In my audio journey, I feel I have spent more to achieve more. I am not foolish enough to say that is an absolute. Of course higher price does not always equal higher quality. It all depends on how much of that “little bit more” you’re chasing after.
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@audiodwebe well said.. Since when does more expensive always equate to better ? Certainly not in audio and most things.. |
Absolutely. And a $16K amp will sound even better. That’s what the salesperson will say. But in reality it’s unfortunately about system matching, room matching, musical preferences and your likes. That 8K amp might sound like a turd to “you” in your room and you might find a sub-1K amp that blows your current amp out the water. Such is life of an audiophile. Sorry. |
Wow along with Master M, Mr. lemonhaze has hit the nail on the head. I can take what some call MidFi gear and it sounds just as good in the end with a treated and acoustically tuned room as gear costing 10 times the amount. I have owned, fixed, borrowed, had gear left in wills, and been given a LOT of gear. Of all the gear none of it stands out as "The Best". I like the layout of some gear because I'm a mechanic. When designers make a power amp complicated to access and repair that is a big mark against them. We are not trying to get to Mars with the silly thing and it doesn't have to do triple duty like be a toilet and part of the landing gear too. I think about Pass design power amps X600.8 are 27,000.00 for a pair, X250.8 a little over 10K. I can use a Threshold for 2500-3500.00 and I'd doubt a soul could say one sounded "BETTER" in any way, than the BIG dollar Pass. At the time Threshold wasn't cheap and still aren't. A 550e is a pretty amazing piece of gear. Mcintosh gear, some like it, some don't. Just like anything else, you have to learn about their gear. 50 years with Mac. Is there gear that will do something Mac gear doesn't do? I could start and finish a setup with just Mcintosh gear. From the wall outlet to the Turntable's dust cover with top quality service, performance, selection and a wonderful visual. Are there better sounding all in one systems? Show me ONE manufacture that has everything. EVERYTHING. Including servicing everything they have EVER made around the world.. Pick TWO that can do it all, THREE, put three companies together and do it..:-) I picked Mac because my DADDY and MOMMY did to.. So there... I don't know how to stick out my tongue, but I did. Give credit where credit is due, Mcintosh is a symbol of success in ALL parts of the world, not just the US. I'm not paid for, or sell or promote ANY gear other than because I LIKE it.. NO ONE PAYS me for any type of service other than sexual favors.. I have my limits. No need to be a prude! Happy New Year.. |
@OP, the simple truth is that, understandably, no audio manufacturer is going to advise you to treat your room acoustically before making a decision on their product. In an untreated room audio enthusiasts are making the wrong decisions all the time. System too bright?..buy a new amp. Too dull..buy a new something. My advice is to sort out your room before you change anything. A treated room, even one with just basic additions will have an enormously positive effect. If you spend some effort, $100 on a microphone and download for free REW you will have the same tools the professionals use and will be able to optimise the room. If you are not prepared to learn how to use these tools, which is not difficult, then install bass traps in the corners and absorption panels at the first reflection points. These are what I referred to as 'basic' and will help smooth out the low frequencies and reduce some of the long decay time. Check out DIY super-chunk bass traps, easier than you think and cheap. I can provide lots more info but it mostly falls on deaf ears so I'll stop here. The vast majority of posters have not heard even a modest system in a properly treated room and just dismiss the suggestion, finding the idea of throwing more money at their hobby more attractive.
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Bad or good is definitely appropriate for an individual. Altough, I don’t think I have ever heard a super expensive piece of equipment that has sounded bad. I could always appreciate it for the strengths it had, what it was trying to accomplish, although it might not have had the character I wanted. |
"No one will take a bet with me that they will be able to price rank a series of cables on a blind A-B test."
There is the very difficult, and the impossible. This one falls into the later category. As you said, you could probably also include CD players as well as amplifiers and still find no takers. Let’s face it, even with loudspeakers, it’s far from easy. What we can easily hear, eg bandwidth, scale and tone are qualities that don’t always equate to cost. It’s a pity that Harman aren’t able to publish the results of many decades of blind listening tests at the their testing lab. That data could certainlybe interesting to anyone with a long term interest on audio. Seeing as how it’s unlikely to be in the interests of national security perhaps there should be a 10 year disclosure rule.
After all, it’s faintly ridiculous enough that the full JFK files have remained undisclosed for almost 60, and that Pfizer BioNTech have demanded 75!
[USA – The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) says it now needs 75 years to fully release Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine data to the public]. |
What @mahgister (and others) are trying to impart onto you is ‘synergy’ matters. That is, how your individual components (including room treatments) work together. You can assemble a very inexpensive system that sounds incredible in the right room. You can also spend thousands of $$ on components that do not complement one another. Cost has little to do with it. |
It is the height of foolishness to believe that the more a component costs the better is sounds because, well, markets! What a laugh! There are massive, absurd, insane levels of diminishing returns as you climb the audio ladder. I’d also say that a lot of those "returns" are pure placebo. Just like with cables. No one will take a bet with me that they will be able to price rank a series of cables on a blind A-B test. You might be able to detect the cheapest pair assuming they were complete junk-- but the moment you hit a certain level of materials and build quality there is no better, there are just differences that, usually, you learn to hear over time. Same is true with amps. There are different flavor notes, different power capacities, and the differences you’ll hear as a result of how it plays in your particular room (most important thing for most people whether they know it or not), and with your particular combination of gear. To believe that a $100,000 amp "sounds" better than a $10,000 amp because it costs more makes you a... perfect customer! Fact is, it just ain’t so. More money does not equal better sound for almost anyone. Been there, done that, it’s a mind f@ck. BTW-- prices on top gear have jack to do with what it costs to make or what they’ll sell it to you for. It’s called "aspirational pricing" and a lot of that has to do with the astounding levels of inequality that exist today in our society. Paying stupid money for something and not thinking twice about it, mostly because you want the "bling factor" is for chumps, show-offs, or for those with more money than sense-- and there are plenty of those folks around-- about 80% of whom inherited that wealth anyway. Beyond a certain range or point, quality never equals price. |
It is not too hard hearing differences, but it typically takes time to put your finger on what it is. It is a skill. So, provided it is not just switch, a to b to c, and allows lots of time. Some, of course will be immediately obvious, some will take time. Th
The reason quick analysis is so challenging is that music is composed of dozens of constantly changing sounds, and your conscious mind ends up flicking from sound to sound… each time it is changing. This is why for most of us the subconscious must be allowed to integrate an impression of the gestalt over time of similar sounding components.
Highly experienced professional reviewers are likely to be very good st this. |
What I'd love to see is a double blind lineup of various priced equipment in the same category ( preamps, or integrated amps, or speakers, whatever) least expensive to most expensive in a manageable price range played over the exact system and then have folks pick what they like. I wonder what the results would be. Has anyone seen such a process if so any takeaways? and yea lots of intervening variables at play but this is just down and dirty for sake of discussion. |
Hyperbole aside, what about the low end and the high end?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Not HYped .
Staright shooting.
There are no xover style speakers that will surpass a FR in midr5ange, ]
This is common knowledge, If you don't get it by now, I'm sorry you have not yet heard the real deal
I don't want my mids piped through a midwoofer and a tweeter. Sorry just dont.
Now as for more cash better...well ]
If we are taliing WAVAC or Kronzilla's $100K++ SET amps,., well yeah more cash the better.
But if we are talking other over priced tube amps, well no , .
Jadis' KT170 looks very interesting but at $15K+ , ahhh, I can get a good made in China PP tube amp and come very close to Jadis' sound, for UNDER $1500.
10x's better the Jadis,, ahhh I don't think so, Justa nuance,
= Not worth it.
Go SET, now for $15K I can get a 845 tube will annihilate the KT170. |
A good $8,000 amp will sound much better than a good $800 amp, that’s for sure. Jaw dropping? Only if you were clever/lucky enough to choose an amp that perfectly fits your setup. Also bear in mind that for your jaw to drop you need 1/ To be sophisticated enough to appreciate a high quality sound reproduction. 2/ To be able to build a coherent setup/room system to give a hi-end amp a chance to show you its’ class. Otherwise you can buy a $30,000 amp, plonk it on your hi-fi rack, and it will perform to 30% of its capability. Just like a $3,000 amp. So many people have done exactly that and claimed that there’s no difference. |
No it won't. Not jaw dropping. Why should it? In fact it might not even sound better than a $100 one. It's far more important to match the amplifier to your speakers in terms of power and drive. A second opinion, preferably a non audiophile one, might also prove invaluable when auditioning. Bear in mind also, that certain features can prove useful, eg a mono button or a balance switch etc. |
I've yet to encounter the viewpoint expressed in the first sentence. Much depends on how the pricing is done. If done according to a formula, its likely it will be less expensive with the same or better performance. Technics has long had examples of this with their turntables. When priced according to what the market will bear the price tends to be higher of course. And the performance may or may not be better. This has nothing to do with audio; its true of nearly any high end industry.
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Equipment from Schiit Audio and some DACs from Denafrips have my interest piqued. I read that in general, both brand punch above their weight class, so to speak. I’m particularly interested in that Schiit “Yaggy” DAC. I’ve read some nice things about it. It’s cool to find gear that that is the heels of higher priced competitors. |
It seems to be common for people to feel that if you cannot afford something then it cannot be worth the price and anyone that has enough money to afford it is a fool or not very smart. Which of course is not true. While you can add nearly unlimited labor to improve the sound of budget products to far beyond their normal capability (think interconnects, room treatments etc.), but if you take into account personal effort, high end generally products perform in proportion to their price. The high end market is highly competitive and highly reviewed by professional reviewers. It is unfounded conspiracy theories to think all the research and development done by dedicated engineers is really only marketing hype. I have spent most of my life in high technology companies like Burr-Brown and Texas Instruments with the individuals designing and working to bring better sound to the high end community. The investments is in billions of dollars to be able to bring the technology many of you guys think is a conspiracy, marketing hype, or in your head. Go listen to a top level Wilson Audio / Roland acoustically treated sound room… or something of the like… and if you can speak at all after the experience then you have no appreciation for sound quality or music and should move on to some other pursuit. |
@atmasphere Amen brother amen. I Robot |
No. More expensive = more expensive. Better? - that has to do with the intent of the manufacturer and far less to do with price. If they are making something expensive to make money, its likely it will be mediocre. There is something called the Veblen Effect which says that there is a perception that because something is more expensive that it must also have more value- the point of the Veblen Effect as a phenomena is simply to point out that the perception isn’t based in reality. Better is when its better, not just if its more expensive. |
haha |
What do you think i spoke about : a publicity for GIK acoustic bass traps? Yes read audio thread, how many spoke about not ONLY about room treatment with passive materials but also active controls... Almost none...They boast about pricey dac or speakers or amplifiers... For sure almost nobody know that an acoustically DEDICATED room is the ONLY luxury in audio... Not a costly piece of gear .... A beginner enter read all that, and he think that an amplifier of 10,000 bucks and costly speakers will give him the best S.Q./price ratio in his living room...my system cost 500 bucks ... I am not the ideal choice for gear publicity.... This is how a customer crowd is conditioned...No acoustic lesson and especiually no psycho-acoustic lesson either... Am i stunned after 9 years or reading the free publicity for gear in audio thread , putting aside the ESSENTIAL acoustic ? Yes i am...Call me a fool...
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@mahgister stunned by general ignorance? |
I am stunned by the general ignorance.... Acoustic is key NOT the price of the gear...And i dont speak here about buying costly materials passive treatment...A dedicated room is the ONLY luxury in audio....NOTHING ELSE IS....But why any gear manucturing company could not spell the beans about that ? Guess why.... My system is under 500 bucks and even better system at any price are UNABLE to give me any upgrade fever ever... they are better yes but think about the ratio S.Q. / price ...my system price made it with a ratio S.Q. /price over the roof.... Ok am i deaf? No, i fine tuned myself my room by hearing experiments daily on almost one year period with fun and junk materials from my basement... I used not only passive materials treatment but more importantly psycho-acoustic methods and Helmoltz acoustic resonators grid and diffusers... Cost = zero bucks...
Acoustic is the sleeping princess and any piece of gear is only one of the 7 working dwarves... |
What's your definition of "jaw dropping"? Let's be honest - humans are emotional beings. In general items cost more only if folks are willing to pay the higher price. Are there $5k integrated amplifies that sound better than an $8k integrated amplifier - it's definitely in the realm of possibility. If you look at established high quality brands - within their product lines there will be a difference in the integrated amps at various price points. McIntosh has integrated amps at $5k and $8k and there's differences...I don't know if they are earth shattering. If you look at other brands - say NAD or Rogue and you'll experience a difference in sound as you go up the model range. And you'll notice a difference between the brands at the same price point. When comparing a SS versus Tube and Class AB versus Class D you may hear a drastic presentation. And that can be very personal. And there's going to be someone that states - you can great quality system for less than $1k all in...and you can. In the end, I try to enjoy my system as is. Why? Because the goal for me is to enjoy listening to music. |
Each of us can only relate our own experience and rarely have I been bowled over and gobsmacked by a single well-executed amp or preamp but it DID happen (literally blown away) when I acquired an Audio Research GS-150 about a year ago. Years ago I had an ARC D115-II for quite a while -- another great amp -- but nothing like the GS-150. I haven't done alot of experimenting but I think from a value proposition a used Ref75 with the huge new powertubes ARC is using might be a good option. Of course everything else has to be up to the challenge with regard to what can be resolved. There are absolutely phenomenal values out there to be had as well such as the Magnepan LRS. Crossed over to a good sub it makes for a small investment speaker-wise which might allow for more $ invested in your electronics. And of course GOOD used equipment is often a great option no matter what. |
@oddiofyl - Quicksilver gear is excellent; I had the tube headphone amp, and for under $1000 that thing is a steal. I've since sold it and moved up to Eddie Current and Auris Nirvana, but the Quicksilver served me very well for many a month.... |
Just when I think you couldn't say anything more silly, you go and prove me wrong... Firstly, we would have to assume you have heard every four/five figure amp available. You haven't. I'd feel safe in saying you have not heard even one. Now that we've dismissed your trite comments. Better is so subjective that the question becomes moot. A 20K dollar amp may only sound slightly better than a 2K one, but it's up to the end user to determine if that amount of improvement is worth the 10 fold price increase. Some people pay big bucks for that last 1% of performance. And who are we to say they are wrong? On a smaller scale I have paid a lot for what some would consider a minor difference over what the thing replaced. But to me it was enough of a difference to warrant the cash outlay. To each his own. Oz
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Gold revision is a darn fine amp! Look into upgrading to platinum, or what Steve and,Pat recommend. unless you want to spend some coin, then upgrade the McCormack further. enjoy, great gear you have. |
