Low level listening

This is a topic close to my heart: I listen to low volume classical ~11-12 hrs/day and so it's important to me that I actually hear the music. From long trial and error, I found 2 interrelated factors that help with this:

1 - Use relatively inefficient/insensitive speakers. The two pairs I switch between now are both ~83-84 dB at 1M. It takes some juice to drive them, which means more play on the low end of the volume pot of whatever preamp I use; and

2 - Use sealed/acoustic suspension speakers. Both pairs I have are sealed. Somehow this lets more clarity flow from the speaker at low volume. There's no port to hear or deal with.

That’s why my Cornwall IV’s sound so very good at low volumes.  

@johnk 

I'm finding this to be true as well. I recently switched out some bookshelf speakers for big horn tweeters in my system. We're talking 800Hz and up. The narrower dispersion on the horns had a surprising effect of making the room sound more lively and airy than the wider dispersion speakers, and this worked very well towards low level listening. I was amazed at how enjoyable and dynamic the sound continued to be at very low levels. I think it's something to do with direct to reflected ratio being high while maintaining a relatively long reverb tail in the room.

Large horns can be ideal low-level loudspeakers why I use them in my office system.

For example class D amplifiers tend to require higher volumes to come alive in the bass regardless of speakers.  

Not really found this to be true.  What specific class D amps was this?

I was going thru the same thing with my KEF Blades, They were uninvolving until I started pushing to 90db and above, but for me the magic happens at softer volumes. I swapped my Hegel H590(the Beast) for a pair of Mc611's and was amazed at how much the blades opened up at low volumes with less than a watt running thru them? go figured.

I have found that the idea of speakers sounding their best at low volume level depends on the amplifier as much as it does on the speaker.  This is regardless of Fletcher Munson or relative volume of frequency adjustments.  

For example class D amplifiers tend to require higher volumes to come alive in the bass regardless of speakers.  

Class A amplifiers tend to do the best job at lower volume levels as do robust Class A-B designs that are stable to very low impedances.  

That said there are speakers that do a better job too- mainly higher efficiency designs 89db and higher including your Tektons.  

Your Tekton speakers should be capable of quality low volume listening and if they do not, look to your amplifier as the reason.  

btw, my comments about Fletcher Munson, and 'Loudness' relate to very low listening. That's when the Bass player starts to dissapear.

Many here must consider low listening as what many of us would consider normal.

I highly recommend the Tannoy Legacy Eaton stand mount speakers. They sound great at low volumes. The 10" driver and wide baffle could have something to do with it, who knows. I typically don't listen very loud, so these speakers have been the right choice for me. They will play reasonably  loud when asked to. They also do not require a ton of power. 

Just reiterating about Magnepans and low-volume listening.

I had the LRS (first edition) and switched to the 1.7i, they definitely sound better to me at lower volume levels, either with, or without a pair of REL T7/x subs in the mix.  Low to medium volume for me.

Same room, same gear, driving CSS Criton 1TD-X stand-mounts and I find I want those babies cranked up.  If I want to listen loud they are much better than the Maggies.

FWIW, the 1TD-X have more definition, clarity, "air" or whatever, they just sound better and I can more easily pick out the individual instruments/voices.  Bass is much better defined w/wo the subs.  Bass tone is definitely better. bells, triangles, cymbals sound more defined and natural.  Singers are right there

The 1TD-X are less than 1/2 the cost of the Maggies and will fill a small/medium room with sound.  They are as inefficient as the Maggies and need lots of juice to get them going.  Just my 2 cents.

It has much more to do with noise floor than one would ever have thought. High eff speakers used with too much power are problematic as well since there is a fixed noise floor on any component and when a powerful amp is putting out small amounts of power on very sensitive speakers your sn ratio drops dramatically. This crushes dynamics and makes the output seem dull and not separated from the noise floor or worse yet switching distortion from imbalanced complimentary devices.

The other thing I find is unless your gain structure is worked out well and you have volume pot on your preamp or source up around 12 o'clock or higher you are loosing SN and dynamics. 

Easy solution is an autoformer VC. Unlike a pot you do not burn signal through resistance to attenuate to a listening level. Burning signal through resistors creates noise. 

Several mentioned about the ISO 2003 Equal Loudness Contour (ELC). In the following, I will show you how to translate those curves into practices, i.e., use the notion to program the EQ presets in whatever the player you have. I used foobar2000 as the example but the notion can be adapted to any freq. bandwidth you have in the EQ. I have been using these presets listening to music for some time especially low-level listening at night and the experience is great.

One of the other factors-- didn't see it mentioned- is the level of ambient noise in the listening room. My room, without adding additional window treatment which I have- registers in the very low 30 dbs, "C" weighted-- I'm on a quiet residential street with little traffic. 

That translates into even more musical information being revealed by the system without having to compete with a noisy background. And is a pretty simple measurement to make and take steps to address, if necessary. 

Minutes after my last post. I took out phone an used sound meter checked. Thats a little loud for me. I would now say mid 70s average. most of the time with an occasional fun time. I did need to turn up volume nob on LRS some, but between Cherry amp and tube goodness from Freya+ I was more than satisfied with every CD I played weather John Hiatt, Zach Williams, Uriah Heep,, or Spocks Beard.

@jeffS In my room 14x14 with dormer behind seating position . Speakers  8ft from seat. Having little experience with other speakers although did auditioned Kef Meta probably 16 months ago and Polk Reserve 200 maybe 1year ago. LRS+ were very enjoyable. Image seemed to float. Nice vocals. Probably only  25 hours or less on them.                                                                                                                              @Macg. Should have clarified dB. I struggle not turning up. I would say average should be for me 80 dB peaks 87 no more.                                                                  @Speakerdude. Your right about Lokius. Need to experiment. Thank you everone

I will say my Vandersteen’s sound very good at low to moderate level. Then they sound fantastic with some juice. I think you can’t really compare low to moderate level to full on. They can both sound very good low level listening you are just not feeling the music as well. You know that kick drum punch to your gut that is oh so good.

IME, the most satisfying low-level listening is headphone listening. It’s not even close and that would be at a very modest level of equipment. YMMV.

With speakers, you may want to look at ways to create your own loudness control. If you are doing computer audio, this might be software-based equalization. For example, I have had some success experimenting with Roon’s Parametric EQ. Or you could get some kind of physical equalizer box. In my very limited awareness of those options, Decware’s ZROCK would be at the top of my shortlist.

FWIW, when I have had the opportunity to have some casual q+a with a couple of different speaker builders/designers on this topic, efficiency did seem to be a factor in their recommendations.

Good luck!

15 minutes of exposure to 100dB may cause hearing loss. (CDC)

My Andra eggleston they sound good on low volume.Ive tried Mark Levinson,Krell,BAT.Distortions and brightness show up if I turn the volume up. With my apollon Tsakadiris Tube mono blocks 150 w per channel I can play louder without distortion.

I am rather shocked that anybodys regular listening level is 100db. That itself looks like a road to hearing loss in the future.  An occasional peak, yeah.

@thespeakerdude Actually it is physiology not biology. Either way, I'm not disputing your chart. 

I think it's got to be panels, they have better detail and soundstage than cones at low volume.  May be because the moving membranes are lighter than cones, being much thinner and not requiring to be rigid.

There is no evidence of this I am aware of. That would show up in improved distortion at lower volume which I do not think that is the case.

I expect primarily this is a factor of a higher ratio of direct sound versus indirect sound with panels.

Could also be the volume control. They are not all created equal. 

Magnepan 1.7i coupled with PS audio M700 monos is a match made in heaven for low level listening. I never feel the need to “crank it up”. I get plenty of detail and impact even at low level. I also have 2 subs in the system that contribute. Some recordings beg to be played loud and I do sometimes “crank it up” but always go back to LLL. BTW, it’s never fatiguing.

I think it's got to be panels, they have better detail and soundstage than cones at low volume.  May be because the moving membranes are lighter than cones, being much thinner and not requiring to be rigid.

But why not try headphones for low level listening.  The intimate interface with the ear at very low levels gives palpable reality better than any speaker.

ANY good speaker, ANY great system: when played at low volume, YOUR EARS, anybody’s ears, do not have a flat curve. Low volumes, you hear less volume of lows and highs, relative to everything in between. Science!

The ’Loudness’ circuits (filters, equalizers) were developed to compensate for EVERYBODY’s ears hearing less bass and less highs AT LOW VOLUMES. EVERYBODYS (any age, not tinnitus, simply facts).

Play Jazz at a decent volume, the bass player, and the imaging of where the players are you get terrific imaging from your awesome system, specifically the bass enhances the enjoyment of Jazz..

Now, lower the volume: the bass player is kind of gone relative to the other players.

Engage the Loudness feature, bass player is back.

Raise the volume: remember to disable the Loudness feature, or you will have a bass bloated sound.

That is why I like the Chase’s AUTOMATIC and PROGRESSIVE engagement of the Loudness circuit. Raise the volume, the Loudness eq is automatically disengaged.

Like I said, vintage equipment ALL had Loudness feature. Implementation varied.

My Yamaha Receiver has two volume controls. 1st you set ’normal’ volume with one volume control, then leave it alone. You use the other volume control which raises the volume with zero loudness added, you lower the volume, and the Fletcher Munson curve: low bass and high treble are boosted, progressively as you lower the volume with that control.

My Fisher Tube Preamp has a loudness switch. As you lower the main volume, you notice the bass is getting weak. You engage the loudness circuit, and it ’adds’ the bass back.

REPEAT: every speaker remains unchanged, everyone’s ears hear less bass, ’loudness’ electronically boosts the bass SENT TO to your wonderfully flat speakers.

Lots of good input here. I’d rather be lucky than good…Heritage Lintons, a REL T5i and a recapped and serviced PS-200 Crown with plenty of overhead reach a nice full sound a very comfy Db level. My unsophisticated logic follows most of the posts here, the trick at low levels is filling in a little bass, however you get there. 

For any speaker to sound good at low levels it has to be designed with a giant suckout in the midrange to exaggerate the highs and lows lost to the dreaded Fletcher Munson curve. There is no free lunch.

I have had success low listening with 2 setups. One my tannoy ardens with luxman class A (the loudness button boosts bass at low volumes really well) they shift a lot of air so effortless low.

Others were Falcon Ls3/5a driven by leben cs300xs... Small 18w el84 push pull..... Even more amazing with headphones.... 

@dynamiclinearity No worries and thank you.  I agree with you. 
 

Hearing loss and tinnitus is a serious and sometimes debilitating problem. I do think it is helpful for those of us with hearing loss and an interest in hifi to protect our hearing from further (preventable) damage and that with some understanding of our diminished frequencies, and maybe some trial and error , a great sounding, safe system is obtainable.

Bob'd,

How did the LRS+ sound in your home at low volume?

jl1ny,

Which amp(s) do you find best for LLL?

Macg19. Sorry I wasn't clear. What I meant is our ear's balance changes with level. The louder we listen the closer lows and highs are to the mid levels. But this doesn't imply we should listen at 100dB. But the nearest to correct balance(assuming good recording engineering) will occur when the level at one's ears is the level the recording was balanced at. But complicating that is how linear level changes are in a system(due to speaker dynamic linearity and the relationship of amp/speaker and to some degree the rest of the system. If it's right at one level and the system compresses above that it will be wrong at higher levels.

Anyway listening at the ear at low levels makes the bass and treble sound lower than they were recorded at relative to the mids.

OP your audiogram may provide some insight - for me the loss was 750-4KHz 40-60dB.

Basically vowels and made worse by the generally softer female voice. So I flash the report to my wife every once in a while.

@thespeakerdude Actually it is physiology not biology. Either way, I'm not disputing your chart. 

I'm disputing the claim that low levels will "never sound right" (good/enjoyable?) until you get to 100dB. 

Sounding "right" is subjective and I spent a lot of money getting my system to sound "right" to me, with documented hearing loss, at 85dB or less, in a relatively large room.

@bobdavid , you have the Lokius so you are set up for playing with equalization for better low volume listening no matter the speakers.

I to thank everyone for their feedback. My system consists of a Audiolab 6000 CDT into a Schiit Bifrost 2 into a Schiit Freya+ into Schiit Lokius to Class D Cherry STM amplifier with 60 volt seperate power supply. It output of 200 into 8ohms, or 400 watts into 4 ohms with Tekton Be Lores. I also have Rythmik  F12SE sub. In seeking idea's I am by no means stopping my order for the LRSs, i'm just seeking knowledge which I certainly appreciate. The Maggies when I auditioned at home over a weekend for lack of a better word had more presence. The image was more defined, and that was with there stands not the Magna Risers

This is biology, not nonsense. Our hearing sensitivity at different frequencies changes with volume. It is why music sounds different with changes with volume. A speaker with exaggerated bass or recessed mids may sound better at lower volume than one that does not, but you solve an issue at low volume and create a new one at high volume. There are easier ways to fix this.
 

@dynamiclinearity 

Low levels will never sound right as explained by someone earlier our ear frequency response varies with level and bass and treble are softer than middle frequencies until about 100dB

The correlation between sounding right and 100dB is utter nonsense. My "listening room" is 60ft w x 25ft d open plan (minus a 17x17 ft bedroom with doors on 2 sides) and you can hear the music clearly throughout the house/in the bedroom at 85dB, never mind 8-10ft from the speakers which is where the sweet spot is.  

To those in the camp that Magnepans won’t play well at low volumes, I’m willing to bet with a high current amp this wouldn’t be the case. My fully restored/upgraded Apogee Acoustics Duetta II Signature are pretty inefficient, but still sound incredible  at low volumes. I’m also driving them with a beast BAT VK-600 with bat pack (dual mono in the same chassis) solid state amp that produces a huge amount of current.

+1 @elliottbnewcombjr, you can fight biology, but it is probably better to work with it. Anything else is going to be a band-aid.

@jeffseight The Maggies are far from efficient. Great speakers but require lots of power.

Fwiw, your amp is equally important as speakers for low level listening. LLL is all I do! 

What amp or integrated are you using - I think this makes a big difference to clarity/information at lower volumes.

additionally would recommend the Schitt Loki EQ to make your own boosted curve for lower level listening - works amazingly well.

Also a subwoofer will make your speakers easier to drive and fill in the bottom - the effect is more impact at lower volumes. 

Low levels will never sound right as explained by someone earlier our ear frequency response varies with level and bass and treble are softer than middle frequencies until about 100dB, certainly loud. I suspect this affect is magnified by speakers that compress dynamic level changes more than other speakers whether by the speaker design itself or perhaps how well the speaker follows the voltage changes dictated by the amplifier. It's well known speakers vary in their reaction to inputs due to how reactive a load they are for amps.

Curious why you are asking for recommendations if you have already ordered new speakers?

assuming they are returnable, what SPL levels are you aiming for?

I ask because I also have hearing damage from exposure (too much clubbing in the 90’s) and I use the “dB meter” app routinely. 
 

A max of 85dB should not cause any further damage and I find 70-85 very enjoyable with my Harbeths. 85dB “sounds loud”. The design criteria for them included sounding satisfying at the 70dB range.

the rest of the system helps of course, which includes 2 subs. All listed in my virtual system.

If I can't listen to my system at a fairly robust volume, I put on my headphones.  I like to hear music presented in such a way that it's hard to distinguish from being there.  When was the last time you were at a live show and said "I can't hear it?"

I have long used Quad stats and a few years ago, had my '57s restored by Electrostatic Solutions. You don't have to play them loud (in fact, they will not play at jet take off levels) to get the musical information. I use them in an all vintage tube system that has been brought to spec with fresh old stock glass.

By comparison, my main system, horns and SETs, can also deliver the musical information at low db levels. That system can play loud but I often listen at modest levels. (To get the woofers to energize the room, you have to give it some power). 

In comparison, I think the Quads act as a filter- they aren't as efficient and seem to give a warm sheen to most music- the horns are extremely revealing, more of a microscope on the music. I think, on balance, despite the '57s legendary transparency, I'm actually hearing more musical information with the horns than the Quads, but the latter sure are nice. Maybe it is the tube complement on the Quad system too compared to what drives the horns. (More "old fashioned" v. modern). For me, it was a bit of an epiphany, given that I've always considered the Quad "transparent." 

Yes the Great MBL Omni directional Loudspeakers Everywhere is the sweet spot and pick up information on the recording that’s lost with the vast majority of Loudspeakers being the most critical midrange,and tweeter are outside of the cabinet enclosure,yes even at low volumes ,starting with their smallest speaker the 126 monitors , 

My old Epi 100 speakers sound great at low volumes, as does my Heresy IV.  Both also sound great at moderate and high volumes.  There doesn't need to be a tradeoff.

My KEF’s don’t start to blossom until 60-65 dbs and above, then they’re great! Not that they sound bad at lower levels.