- in today’s world, the conclusions you came up with is all the science we need LOL.I still firmly believe that there was a difference when I went from a La-Z-Boy recliner to a Ekorne stressless recliner.
- Boy, I sure hope this start a thread feature doesn’t become real popular because that’ll mean I’ll have to start one and I don’t know. Anyways, thanks for Participating.
Is the "improvement" real or imnagined?
This thread may be of interest to no one, but I was inspired by @inna post to start a thread. I had a recent experience that may touch on broader unresolved (unresolvable?) questions. I'm mostly happy with my system and my room has been professionally treated. I don't have an ideal listening chair-the back comes up to ear level, maybe a little above. Concessions have to be made to old and crumbling neck vertebra that need support.
I know that high back seating can in theory affect the sound through reflections. So, I got the bright idea to try to mitigate that-I'm sure its not original.
I bought a weighted blanket-quite thick and covered the chair. I put an Afghan blanket over that, the last one my mom crocheted, so its magical already. I perceive improved detail and better imaging -certainly not huge, but a subtle improvement that I hear, or at least think I hear.
So, maybe there is some science behind this, makes sense the blanket would reduce reflections. On the other hand, maybe its simply expectation bias, placebo effect, whatever, at work because there is science behind that as well, and its hard to imagine this is a big thing.
So, how do I know if its real or imagined? Its not a big deal, no real investment and only a very subtle perceived change, but it does relate to other issues that are often debated, sometimes heatedly, on this forum. How do you account for, or eliminate expectation bias, other than a proper double blind test which I'm guessing most of us are not going to do when auditioning equipment?
I found this interesting, maybe no one else does. Thoughts?
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kerrybh, this is interesting. Perhaps you did have some expectation bias but this doesn't mean that in reality the sound didn't change slightly. It probably did. Complicated, isn't it ? Touches on physiology and psychology. And generally speaking, our perceptions of various kinds is a fascinating subject.
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Wow! Something else to play around with, thanks for that, @ghdprentice . But in this case, it sounds as if a high backed chair with absorptive properties added to the back could actually be an improvement? So with a chair with a SOFT high back to it, wouldn't that actually act, at least to some extent, as an absorption panel?
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Take the blanket on/off a few times and see whether the effect persists. Not perfect, but at least the "second is better" effect is removed. You could also leave the blanket on, come back the next day, listen with blanket on (test 1), then take it off, so expectation bias would predict that the second (no blanket) will sound better. If so, then you have shown that the blanket has no effect. If you are into philosophy of science, look at the logical improbability of the outcome as an indication of the severity of a test. Popper wrote about that ad nauseam. |
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Seems logical in theory. It makes a difference if you cup your hand behind your ear, so a chair is certainly capable of some reflection depending on how and what it's made from....damping that refection could certainly have an impact. Tough to measure for most of us, but whatever sounds best to you works for me! Enjoy! |
Confirmation bias is real and thriving with many members on this site. With audio comes the mind's tendency to interpret "different" as "better". When I'm not sure, of even if I'm pretty sure, I like to listen for a day or 2, switch back, listen for a day or 2 and switch. This helps me keep an open mind and draw a conclusion I am confident in. Jerry |
@carlsbad2 that seems a sound approach. I think confirmation bias is real, and might be particularly consequential in this context because of the nature of auditory memeory. |
A soundfield propagates in a room just like flow fields (fluids whatever) that engineers in other domains deal with. Talk to any of the CFD sim guys. You have a lot to learn about what’s bullsh and what’s not. Pre-requisite: High IQ
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As big a deal as room treatments are on this site (and I am not implying that I don't think they make a difference) I don't know why anyone would not think that the reflections or lack of reflections from a high back chair would make.
Personally, while sitting in my high back listening hair, I do notice a change when I either push my head forward (as opposed to it laying against the back) or sit straight up. But doing either of those is uncomfortable, so I basically always recline in my high back chair when listening. The tubes are warming up as I type and I am heading back there in about 15 minutes and I am going to swap out my high back chair with a low back steel folding chair that I keep in the garage. This will not be a comfortable three or four hours, but if I feel it is a sonic improvement, I will look into a more comfortable low backed chair. I did see that IKEA sells something called a Poanga chair and the have a low back model for $99. |
Even the upholstery on a large sofa, if you have one, makes a bigger difference than the 10k wire+connectors some guys around here buy.. there’s data on this from Grimani systems, etc.... I could move a large couch in and out of my room and post some data, but, i don’t feel like lugging a large couch down the stairs for the likes of ya, you’re not that special.
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I did extensive measuring with REW at the listening position. Changes close to the microphone (i.e., near where my ears would be) sometimes had a significant impact on frequency response and reflections. So, it depends, but you could be hearing differences. And, also, the movement of one's head of just a few inches can have an impact. Depends on dispersion of the speakers, distance, etc. of course. |
The idea behind haircuts or non-hair cuts (hair pulled up in a pony tail, bun or whatever) is to keep nothing in the way of the earlobes. On the same note, one of the reasons everyone hears differetly is the size shape of the head, earlobes, etc. All the spatial audio HRTFs/tools try to account for this to some degree, i.e., when you’re trying to set it up, it asks you to put your ear lobes on camera (wonder why?)--> edge detection/profile/peq/etc....such is the reason Surround guys, especially mess up royally, a lot of things with the soundfield when they bought that Valencia high couch for comfort. The whole idea behind it is to create a seamsless soundfield with 5 or 7 bedlayer and some height sources. Stereo is very much impacted too.
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@deep_333 The BAACH product apparently does some of that-I’m looking forward to checking it out |
Years ago, a sound guru who has since gone to that big listening room in the sky suggested I start with phone books, and stack them til I achieved optimal sound. I don’t think they even make phone books anymore, so I’m dating myself. (When I date myself, I hardly ever have issues:) Seriously, though, I’ve gone through various seating arrangements. I like my Eames lounge- most folks think it has a high back, but it comes to my shoulders. It is also comfy for me. (It’s a real one, not a knock-off). I bought a pair with matching ottomen. (plural of "ottoman"- I once considered opening a store dedicated to footstools, footrests, and hassocks, and calling it the Ottoman Empire). Yes, I'm in a mood, for which I apologize. When I make a change in the main system (the vintage system is essentially what I was running in 1975 using some of the same components, restored, with top tier glass), my questions are: is there a change? And is that change an improvement? I’ve often found a change can improve one aspect, but has a negative impact in other areas, to wit, footers or isolation devices beneath electronics. My main system is pretty "mature" in the sense that it is dialed in, and the changes I’ve made are fairly long-standing. I’m not really on a gear quest, or a tweak hunt. I may be the exception to the restless audiophile constantly seeking more. I spend the money on records, but I’ve slowed down as grade and price inflation took hold and rare copies are even harder to find, except at nutty prices. It is fun to experiment though and there is nothing wrong with asking the question. Some years ago, I got one of those Schumann Generators from Acoustic Revive. It definitely did something- whether to me or to the gear, I don’t know. But I concluded that I didn’t like the effect- it made things sound more homogenized, less visceral. I still have it, sitting on a shelf with various Peter Belt stuff that I never used, but bought for 5 quid decades ago in London. Where is Geoff when you need him? :) |
@hilde45 , i have noticed that also, and after reading this thread I thought maybe it was because of the increased distance between ears and the high back of the chair? |
. . . A/Bing chairs is easier than other A/Bs I have attempted to do. Anyway, I didn’t use my steel folding chair from the garage because it sits to high. I have another folding chair (plastic back and bottom) that I cut the legs shorter to get my ears at tweeter level. It was quite uncomfortable. I’ve always admitted to not having great hearing, probably due to 28 years of my adult life working on airplanes with less than adequate hearing protection in my second to last career, and I have often thought that maybe I have been wasting my money and time pursuing something that I may never be able to hear anyway. But there is a difference in my small flawed listening room between the sonic presentation in a small folding chair which is totally obscured by my body and a soft upholstered high backed chair that my body does not obscure when I am seated in it. I don’t have a great vocabulary for describing what I hear or don’t hear, but the best way I can describe it for now is that in the small low backed folding chair there seems to be more air, or if not that, maybe the air sounds cleaner. If that makes sense. However (and this part I am not sure about yet, so I guess I will have to go back to the soft upholstered chair for further listening) on some CDs vocals may sound a bit unfavorably brighter in the small chair. I have no doubt that my room needs more absorption, and I am kind of wondering if the soft upholstered high backed chair was providing a bit of that. I listened to a variety of music this afternoon, and the MFSL Supertramp/Crime Of The Century (that I started with to warm things up with) sounded almost palatable for a few songs, but I was fatigued by it before it was through. Richard And Linda Thomson/Shoot Out The Lights leaped out with vibrancy plus texture. But I’d need to go back and listen to the entire CD while seated in the high backed upholstered chair, because as I remember, I was quite impressed and surprised by the SQ of that old CD the last time I heard it in my regular chair. I just bought another CD on ebay: Happy Coat by Shota Osabe Piano Trio, and I liked it the first time I heard it yesterday, and this afternoon I think maybe I liked it more . . . but I am not sure. I followed that with Emmylou Harris/Live At The Ryman, which I usually really like, but today, after Happy Coat, Emmylou’s voice sounded a tad bright. It had not struck me that way before. One thing I am sure about is that sitting in that folding chair for hours at a time is, at best, an uncomfortable experience. For $99 I think I am going to buy the low backed Poanga Chair from IKEA to continue this experiment with. Worst case scenario is that I will have another chair to put somewhere in the house.
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"If you can imagine it, you can achieve it. If you can dream it, you can become it." - William Arthur Ward. +1 @ghdprentice You beat me to the scientific explanation and I agree wholeheartedly. |
I have a powered recliner with a high-ish back (comes up to just below my earlobes). The headrest is adjustable and it actually sounds much better in the "back" position because there is space between the headrest and my ears, even though the difference is a mere 3-4 inches. But while that chair is more comfortable, I also have a very-easy-to-move rocking chair that doesn't extend past my shoulders and that, paired with an ottoman, are generally what I use when I'm listening. |
Agreed, @kerrybh . But playing with chairs is relatively affordable and easy to do. Unlike other things audio that I can think of . . . not easy to make a definitive A/B decision and not relatively affordable. What I will say right now for sure is it did make a difference. What I am unsure about right now is whether the difference is altogether good with all source material. I've been doing some googles this evening, and as @ghdprentice stated, it seems to be a well known fact (that I did not know) that a chair with a back above shoulder height does not yield favorable effects. The soft upholstered chair I was using was comfortable, and I think that in my untreated room (except for the rugs that I have put down) and with a couple of my components (specifically my speakers and my preamp) some of my digital source material may benefit from interacting with that upholstery which I am assuming is acting to absorb as opposed to reflecting. But this is something I can play around with and not break the bank. It is also making me think that I need to quit putting off doing some treating of the front wall. |
I have read posts from members who have stated that they had a large TV between their speakers (I assume this would be a HT combined with a music system) and that by covering the large TV with a heavy blanket (obviously while listening to music as this would kill the HT experience) they were able to improve sound stage and imaging and what not. Given that, I can easily believe that a blanket covering the high back of a chair would make a sonic difference. |
The quickest way to verify if your hi-back effects what you're listening to, regardless of a blanket or pillow... ...is to trap a piece of cardboard as wide as the back with your head. The difference is obvious even the dead would notice. Works outdoors at concerts, indoors @ walls. PZ microphones were made to do that, kinda nifty... ;) |
If you perceive a straight stick is bent in water (because it looks bent), it is actually bent in water? Um, no -- appearance and reality are different things. The way I would phrase your idea is: "If you perceive that it sounds better, then you perceive that it sounds better." |
I've been through a number of listening chairs over the decades. Has to be low back, anything at ear level or above misses freq waves from behind listening position. Height also important to properly integrate drivers. My latest chair can slightly recline and swivels, I can manipulate sound stage/imaging with the swivel, wish I thought of this much earlier..
As for perception, whether a change is real or not, who cares. I seek a pleasurable listening experience, I'm not some measurement bot. I feel sorry for someone who has to question their own perceptions, I have better things to do than worry that my perceptions may be faulty. In any case the real test is over the long run, if perceptions are faulty they generally show up in the long run. |
After finalizing the sale of some speakers that I had yet to pack up, I bought some Barcelona replica chairs to replace a mircofiber sofa with chaise and after swapping them out, the sound (especially the base) improved so much that I instantly regretted selling the speakers. The Barcelona chairs were just about perfect for listening but after a couple years, I got tired of having no support for my head so I had to regrettably sell them. I'd always doze off, reveling in the music, only to come to with a sore neck. Trust your ears. That's what they're there for. All the best, |
BS, no. BS is when some do not believe and or cannot hear a difference they think they know everyone else cannot either so call BS when it is they who are full of it, that is a bully with BS issues. Yes, reducing reflections will make a difference and only you can determine at the base level that you like it or not and make changes until you do. Also the fact when you make yourself more comfortable with physical or mental objectives then you are free to hear things from a more open perspective. That is why turning down of turning off the lights works so well, also why best to cover bright lights on your gear. And, if possible, dedicated listening space well isolated from outside noise. Your observations are spot on, there is a difference and you can hear it and like it, that is all that maters, not what some choose to make disparaging remarks about. Rick
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This thread is complete bullshit.
