Interesting ASR review of small GR Research speaker kit
I bounce between various kinds of analysis — more subjective listening reports, more quantitative measurement analyses and, my favorite, those that combine both strategies to tell a useful story about audio products.
Amir of ASR has just done a very powerful takedown of a fairly inexpensive kit being sold by Danny at GR Research. Not only does he prove his point about the speakers, he also makes (to my mind) a very convincing case that Danny put his finger on the scale in how he reported his own measurements.
I'm not in any camp — Danny's or Amir's or anyone else's. What I appreciate is thoroughness and meticulousness in exposition. Danny does that in his own videos. (Again -- to me. I'm really still learning and cannot easily spot gaps in argument in this subject matter.)
I know people with some of GR's best kits — and I've heard one of them. They sounded incredible. I've watched a bunch of Danny's videos where he criticizes other companies; I've come away thinking, "Wow, he really revealed some of the grift embedded in that product."
But here, the tables are turned, it seems, on Danny. I hope he responds, both to defend his reputation and methods, but also because it will set in relief where some of the distance may be between these two dominant online figures' methods in assessing what makes for a good speaker.
I don’t care what Amir does, quite honestly, but I think most audiophiles owe it to themselves to build at least 1 kit in their lifetimes.
Besides GR, Meniscus, Madisound and Parts Express have a wide array of kits you can purchase which are ready for assembly. You’d learn a great deal just from doing this. If you go into buying / making a kit go into it with the idea it is a learning exercise, not a purchasing exercise and you'll have a lot more fun.
If kits are never your thing but you want giant killers I can’t recommend Fritz enough for the price/value proposition.
I have been building speaker kits since I was in high school. I was kinda forced into this idea by getting burned really bad by a fly by night audio salesman. Since I was in woodshop already, I had everything that I needed for the task.
By a wide margin I can say that kit building is as good as anything that I could afford otherwise. Yes, you take the chance that you won't be satisfied with the build soundwise. Just like paying good money buying a speaker.
GR Research offers a sub kit that I built last year, and it is one of those experiences/outcomes that I will never regret. I prefer to build my own enclosures for the sake of quality, but the parts supplied by GR Research were the best that I had seen in some time.
I am not so naive to believe that things won't change with any company due to various reasons. I will be paying close attention to how things progress.
A tiny driver will never be good. No replacement for displacement. They might be ok in the extreme near field (1-2’ desk speakers).
GR resource made a “rebuttal” video already.
For me? Measurements matter but not everything important is measured. The speakers I have liked long term that have been less fussy have always measured well. Hard to argue with a kipple when used right.
@boxer12GR Research is a respected audiophile speaker manufacturer. They are devoted to the advancement of high end audio. Amir is not.
Yep. It’s easy nitpicking for naysayers who don’t design and build successful sounding speakers that actually sell. What does not measure the best but sounds good to one person might not sound good to the next person staring at meters first.
One of the best kit speakers I did in collaboration with a lead engineer at Madisound, they recommended drivers that did not measure the best, not flat, lively, some distortion, and yet they sounded amazing. The person who bought the speakers loved them. He told me he could not believe how good they sounded. :)
What has worked for me over the years: take exactly opposite of what AmirM says. In other words, if he likes something, I will never consider buying it. Scratch from my list. If he does not like something, it automatically goes to my watch list. This strategy has had a very high correlation with what I generally like to hear from any components.
Ok, so this has become an overall evaluation of Amir’s approach or Amir. Agon is an open forum, so do whatever. I’m not interested in ad hominem attacks on Amir or on objectivism etc. I’m interested in his claims. If you are too, I’d be curious what stood out, right or wrong about those claims. Otherwise, empty your clips or whatever; I’ll be elsewhere.
Oh, just looked at thread on video. Apparently, GR has updated their video, admitted to some errors, doubled down on others. This is all about the details in the video, so be warned.
I'm no expert by any means but 85-90 dbs is awfully loud for a tiny desktop loudspeaker to be playing at full range without a sub to cross over to. The other loudspeaker he used for comparison was the orange to his apple. That's my very amateurish take.
The speaker is clearly designed to play near field at probably max 70-80 db. It clearly wasn’t tested that way. It’s like taking a Ferrari out on a off road course and pronouncing that the car is designed poorly.
I own ASR's nightmare system.... Forte IV, Zesto tube pre, Lab 12 non oversampling tube DAC, and QS mono amps.... they would have a field day tearing that stuff apart but as a system it sounds DAMN good. Ironically I just retired my RME dac, a component that was at one time ASR's best measuring DAC.
Having no interest in this product I have not looked at the review. On this product ASR's opinion may be valid, or not. Amir however appears to be of the opinion that due to his correlation between testing results and actual sound then his testing and measurements are totally predictive, if it measures well, it must sound good. The problem is nobody knows what you hear, only you, nobody can tell you what you like, only you. I hate (ad nauseam) horn speakers, never heard one I like, I have friends who love them, so I keep trying and hoping but to no avail, it doesn't matter to either what they measure like I hate them, they love them. Trying to be completely objective about something that is essentially subjective is not scientific.
Before his passing, Mark Markel of Analysis Plus posted this on his site.They make products for the aerospace and medical industry with precise measurements.
"The faintest sound wave a normal human ear can hear is 10(-12) Wm(-2). At the other extreme of the spectrum, the threshold of pain is 1 Wm(-2). This is a very impressive auditory range."
"The ear, together with the brain, constantly performs amazing feats of sound processing that our fastest and most powerful computers cannot even approach."
I know I have less than a handful of posts. Long time reader. Thanks for reading my post anyway.
Amir’s love is DSP... and that is ok. Inlow sound is a DIY horn guy (makes some impressive "homemade" horns), but he corrects them with DSP... again that is ok. However, if DSP and High bit digital was the end game, we could all get a nice DAC and some DSP speakers and be happy. I do not want to take this off the rails in an analog vs. digital debate, but my point is, there is more to music enjoyment than perfectly measured equipment and sound (though that is a good staring point and can help as a tool to work out bugs in your system and or listening environment).
Look at it this way, if you had the money and you enjoyed jazz, blues, or classical music that can be played with 1-6 players and you could afford to have the best current living musicians playing in your listening space every night, and you brought Amir over and all his expensive gear (it is pricey, just ask him, he will tell you), I bet that you would still choose the live musicians over any music system you could put together today (and one that Amir says measures in his top 10) and I bet the live music would measure "poorly" in your room (unwanted reverb, reflections, distortions).
That said, I agree with others in this thread, that 3" speaker is being asked to do a lot. For a $1000+ a pair assembled seems a bit much for a 3" desktop speaker of the quality that Amir measured. However, what do I know, I am paying over $6 a gallon for gas and $15 for a burrito now, so who knows. The guy(s) putting the speakers together and applying a finish need to eat too.
The kit price seems more in line with the quality of the speaker.
I like the Ferrari comment above. I would like to turn it a little and say that I think Amir was trying to take a (insert your practical family four door car of choice here) to the race track and criticizing it for not performing like a Ferrari.
Finally, I like watching Amir's videos for another view that I do not always agree with, and (I have not watched Danny's response video yet), I think he points out some areas that could be improved in the LGK.
"The design of those speakers is just dumb." What's dumb is taking a speaker designed to be used in a specific manner for a specific application and testing it completely inappropriately. @seikoshasaid the same above, and he is correct. It's like testing a single-ended tube amp putting out 3 watts with a low sensitivity loudspeaker. Gee, it sounds distorted, what a surprise. Duh.
GR Research offers other models for non-desktop use, ones with larger drivers that play louder and lower. No one can break the rules of basic physics. A 12" woofer on a desk top?!.
Yes, Danny Richie is a fan and proponent of open baffle loudspeakers, but they are not appropriate for desk top use. Is he not allowed to suspend that preference to make products for which open baffle is not appropriate?
"They might be ok in the extreme near field (1-2' desk speakers)." I'll give @james633 the benefit of the doubt and assume he is unaware that THAT is the exact application for which the speaker being discussed was designed and offered. Yet Amir reviewed it as if it is a "normal" full range loudspeaker. Does he also test off road tires on the race track?
Like OP has mentioned earlier, GR admits his ignorance and provides the update ... Amir’s comments are correct. Attack to Amir’s comments and disrespect got to end here, folks.
I’ve realized the best way to get fantastic sounding speakers is to build them yourself - if you have the skills.. a mass produced product can not compete cost effectively in terms of cabinet design/build quality.
I build the meniscus Helios in similar fashion to Javad’s design, and they have blown me away. Just amazing.
I am not quite sure how you get this from the video. From the 1 minute 20 second mark to about 3 minutes he explains exactly what others have said above. These speakers were designed for near field desk top type of listening and were never intended to be full range or to play loud. Both of which Amir did. Without coming out and directly saying it, Danny is saying that the speaker was tested improperly.
Attack to Amir’s comments and disrespect got to end here, folks.
When you are wrong and deserve to be called out, you should be called out. He was wrong and deserved to be called out in this case.
Some of you are seeing what I see. Others are just issuing more broadsides against Amir and ASR and measurement in general. Or singing paeans to how your system makes you feel, measurements be damned. Interesting — shows how audio is both scientific and religious, depending on the particular audiophile.
For my own part, what I liked about this video — and some of the stuff on Audioholics, too — is that they go through a topic and says, "There is this issue, and here's the evidence and the conclusion….and now there is this *other* issue, etc." They may go ahead an add all that evidence up and give a product evaluation, overall, too. But what is important to me is each separate piece of evidence.
I have learned a lot from technical information about speakers, amps, etc. I have learned a lot by listening. The notion that I would throw out an entire class of methodology just because there are *some* who are measurement-only (or listening-only) zealots is ridiculous. I'd prefer Jefferson's approach to the Bible — cut out the speculative metaphysics and leave the sensible stuff. You don't throw out the whole Bible because you think the afterlife and sin stuff is just B.S.
@hilde45++1 for your balanced approach and the Jefferson Bible.
Measurements and specs are important. I used the impedance plots to determine the crossover frequency for my sub, for instance; frequency curves helped me deal with some beaming from a horn speaker I used to have. Etc. The science of why my rig sounds good is part of what my geeky side enjoys. But we deploy that gear into a complex acoustic environment, try as we may to tame it. There are so many variables it’s easy to see how a less-than-stellar component(s) might be great in a given room with a given rig.
We need both the left and the right side of our brains…
I have learned a lot from technical information about speakers, amps, etc. I have learned a lot by listening. The notion that I would throw out an entire class of methodology just because there are *some* who are measurement-only (or listening-only) zealots is ridiculous.
Regarding your bible comment, why would you not toss the entire thing out if you find some parts are not believable/true? It causes doubt on the entire thing just like Danny's statements. If some aren't true then how do you know any are true? Maybe Danny doesn't know the difference between pledged and donate....
As a 25 year audiophile I can tell you measurements matter a lot but are just a stage gate for me. I am not interested in poor measuring speakers/equipment but that does not mean I like every good measuring speaker as not all things of value are measured. It has to measure well for me to bother hearing it.
for me it goes in this order
#1 flat frequency response within reason. Measurable
#2 even dispersion, wide or narrow as long as it is even. In a good room give me wide. Measurable
#3 tone,resonances. Does it sound natural? No weird cone breakup or crossover oddities, no crazy port noise, I prefer no secondary port rise at all. This all can be measured but takes a very skilled eye as these are way down in the graph details because of this I like to hear about listen impressions and they are important.
#4 dynamics, distortion can be measured but it is not the whole story. Adding square waves would help imo.
#5 soundstage, Room setup critical, dispersion at play here. Too many factors and I fall back to experience in listening
So I just watched some ASR videos and I have a question or 2. Has Amir ever reviewed anything that wasn’t low-fi or mid-fi? I’m wondering what he would say about some Cardis Clear or AQ Thunderbird speaker cables.
Again I’ve only watched a few of his videos, but there does seem to be a theme to them.
Words of wisdom. The idea that this tiny FR driver can handle FR music at any reasonable level is simply not credible, and the measurements prove it. As a NF monitor at lowish volumes, maybe a case can be made... but all Danny's usual assortment of tweaks like tube connectors, non-magnetic hardware and resistors, SoniCaps, etc. cannot overcome the limitations of the basic design choice. No substitute for engineering as seen in the Neumann active DSP monitor. This speaker should be called "Dwarf Food" not "Giant Killer".
@thynameWhat has worked for me over the years: take exactly opposite of what AmirM says. In other words, if he likes something, I will never consider buying it. Scratch from my list.
This suggests to me that measurements are very reliable in predicting your (and others expressing similar sentiments) listening preferences.
I have watched it up to minute 10 - by then Amir showed the freq graphs, and gave his opinion on them. I have noticed this his measurements are sound, but his interpretation is flawed.
Amirs frequency measurements confirmed Dannys. However, he placed them in a context that his own measurements did not support.
Here’s the details:
Amirs ⅓ octave smoothing looks very close to Danny’s, a good confirmation - no contradiction whatsoever, it is a good confirmation of Danny’s published freq response curve.
At the start Amir shows a finer scale measurement that reveals more details. This is no contradiction, no surprise, every professional knows that finer resolution will give a rougher picture. What it should not give is sudden large (approx 10dB or so) peaks and valleys. Amir confirms there are none of those, so he in fact confirms Danny’s measurements for being solid.
@thyname What has worked for me over the years: take exactly opposite of what AmirM says. In other words, if he likes something, I will never consider buying it. Scratch from my list.
This suggests to me that measurements are very reliable in predicting your (and others expressing similar sentiments) listening preferences.
Your prediction of my listening preferences is completely irrelevant to me. To put it politely
Your prediction of my listening preferences is completely irrelevant to me. To put it politely
I do not believe that it is solely @noskethat is being referenced as the one(s) who has/have shown that measurements can be correlated to what people like.
And I do put some stock in the years of research as a way to help identify what is worth pursuing and what should be skipped over.
To be confrontational to the point that you would defend these speakers seems like a risky pair of speakers to wager on being good. And I say that because we are not exactly talking comparing subtlety different, and subtly nuanced, top shelf gear here.
Maybe you can let us know how those GR “Little Giant Killers” sound to you?
Amir said he would sell them at 1/2 price.
Are you talking to me? I have no skin in this game. I had never heard of those speakers (or that speaker kit) until I read this thread. I am only here for the 🎉 🎈 party (and of course, enjoy the show of the idol’s disciples getting panties in a bunch 🤷♂️)
Yeah I was talking to you… It looked like you have skin in the game?
And I was thinking it took “a big set” to defend those speakers.
Secondly I am not sure it is prudent to classify @noske of idolatry?
But are you talking about idolatry of ASR, or that of Toole/Olive and countless other researchers?
Defending a speaker that was deemed bad by ASR and good by others could make sense.
Do some here believe that the GR LGK is a good speaker?
One person posted a 1/2 hour video review of some other speaker, I suppose as proof that the GR was good, however it looked like it was not even the LGK model.
I can appreciate that people do not like AM’s message, or maybe his message delivery… but it seems like it is totally divisive to discount the whole research arm as something to be removed.
In this one on one, I think that I would have to side with AM over GR. That video clip did sound very distorted on play back, and if I was on a desk using them I would want to be able to hit 90dB being only ~1 meter away.
"Attack to Amir’s comments and disrespect got to end here, folks."
And why is that? Is it because you have misinterpreted what GR has said? Anyone who rates and reviews equipment without listening to it is a complete waste of space and deserves to be ignored. Anyone who claims all Dacs sound the same and R2R Dacs are outdated technology is a fool. Likewise anyone who dismisses any criticism of a certain Chinese Dac as ridiculous has ears of tin and knows not of what they speak.
Regarding your bible comment, why would you not toss the entire thing out if you find some parts are not believable/true?…If some aren't true then how do you know any are true?
No, because not all claims are dependent on the truth of other claims.
I have a mechanic who believes the Covid virus has microchips in it planted there by Bill Gates. He is paranoid, ill informed about politics, and allows his perception of facts to be twisted by ideology. In this subject matter, he's not credible.
He also thinks that the rotors on my brakes are worn out because he's seen it a thousand times before and has physical evidence it's happening with my car, now. His job depends on good diagnoses, he has training in the relevant area, and he has evidence.
I have no problem accepting the second claim regardless of the first.
I haven't heard the LGK 2 (or the previous LGK) but I have built a few of GR-Research's models (NX-Otica, NX-Studio, Servo OB subs) and they are among the best speakers I've owned and easily the best value.
I lost all respect for Amir when I read a few reviews where he bashed well respected products (some of which I really like) without even listening to them and praised products which I (and many others) think sound pretty mediocre. At this point, I am not willing to give Amir or his site any additional credibility by visiting his the site or watching his videos.
Maybe you can point out which products he bashed without listening to them. I have read or watched many of his reviews and I have not seen that. I also like Erin's Audio Corner and New Record Day for his binaural recordings and direct comparisons.
One might argue that a speaker that performs well objectively (measurements) will likely sound good but the opposite cannot be said, i.e. that a speaker that measures poorly will sound good.
I looked at his review on the MuseTec and frankly like many DACs the distortion would be below the hearing level for 99% of listeners, even at its worst. The jitter is more likely to be something that more people would be able to hear but the fundamental point was that the performance was poor relative to other DACs costing less.
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