so is this the hifi version of the possum and the rattlesnake battling in the backyard?
Interesting ASR review of small GR Research speaker kit
I bounce between various kinds of analysis — more subjective listening reports, more quantitative measurement analyses and, my favorite, those that combine both strategies to tell a useful story about audio products.
Amir of ASR has just done a very powerful takedown of a fairly inexpensive kit being sold by Danny at GR Research. Not only does he prove his point about the speakers, he also makes (to my mind) a very convincing case that Danny put his finger on the scale in how he reported his own measurements.
I'm not in any camp — Danny's or Amir's or anyone else's. What I appreciate is thoroughness and meticulousness in exposition. Danny does that in his own videos. (Again -- to me. I'm really still learning and cannot easily spot gaps in argument in this subject matter.)
I know people with some of GR's best kits — and I've heard one of them. They sounded incredible. I've watched a bunch of Danny's videos where he criticizes other companies; I've come away thinking, "Wow, he really revealed some of the grift embedded in that product."
But here, the tables are turned, it seems, on Danny. I hope he responds, both to defend his reputation and methods, but also because it will set in relief where some of the distance may be between these two dominant online figures' methods in assessing what makes for a good speaker.
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GR-Research works with third parties to create flat packs for their speaker kits. These still need to be glued and clamped and finished in some way, but this can be done with minimal tools. It took me 2-3 weeks spending an hour or so most evenings to build my pair of NX-Oticas and Triple Threat subs. This combination sounds better to me than any system I've owned. There are also some third party builders that will build the cabinets for you with very high quality professional finish if you don't want to do any woodworking. That's what I did for my pair of GR-Research NX-Studios for my bedroom system. Another brand of kits I've heard/read good things about is CSS Audio, particularly their subs. They don't offer anything as high end as GR, but for moderately priced speakers, they look really nice. |
Not up to wood working/ cabinet build, but have up graded cross overs. To any/ all that have built speaker kits , I would appreciate advice/ suggestions as to where to begin. I had no trouble with & really appreciated the improvement in sound quality of the Volti upgrade to my 70’s vintage used K-horns. Thanks for any suggestions, Jay |
These days when I google reviews for an audio product and links come back for ASR, I just ignore them. I’ve read enough ASR reviews to know how little they correlate to the actual sound of audio gear....and music itself. Reviewers like that spew graphs and numbers but rarely even try to articulate what they hear when they listen to the item under review. IMO the worst is when they promote measurements & stats as a complete replacement for the subjective listening experience. Human hearing just doesn’t work that way. Then there’s the fact that several ASR reviews have been rather thoroughly debunked, establishing a pattern of bias and incompetence by their reviewer. I don’t like it when people pose as audio gurus whose statements explain everything and must be believed in toto. I don’t drink that koolaid... |
I watched the video and Amir is a story teller. He does not just present the measurements he tells us if they are good or bad. His interpretations of the measurements appear highly subjective. In this and other reviews he discounts certain measurements when they don't fit his narrative. And the comments, his cult of followers getting their schadenfreude rush.
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Most of you are responding like petulant children that don't like what someone else says. Guess what, it's an opinion, you don't have to draw anything from his conclusions or opinions about how they measure, the graphs are useful for people who like quantifying what speakers or amplifiers do and don't do. It's a resource to use. Most of you honestly act like bose people which is sad, and you all could do the audio community good by not seeming so snobbish |
@rbstehno Thankyou. I don’t watch videos, I prefer written words, so what you say I cannot comment on. This is a copy and paste of a few select quotes written by Amir. I have no comment as to whether a grudge or any manner of hostility may be written into it - that is for the reader to interpret with a sense of due process and common sense.
A fully finished pair costs $1,038. I am inclined to think that is relevant in the circumstances (what is their intended use?) and to keep the arrow straight. |
Noske- that is just my opinion. Looking at the video, the reviewer didn’t like what Danny was telling him regarding how measurements are taken. I think this upset the reviewer. Plus, a while back, Danny called out reviewers for not doing appropriate tests for his speakers which also p$ssed off many reviewers. I have seen less intensive reviews for $100k speakers, all of this for a $300 speaker. |
I don't believe this is correct. Please corroborate your allegation with substantive evidence. |
We are talking about a $300 speaker, right? Not sure if ASR is up for reviewing speakers but if you look at the latest TAS issue that has the Stenhiem $72,000 speakers that he thought were the cats meow, and they had square edges, as well as many other speakers like Harbeth, which I think are very ugly and I don't like the sq, just my opinion. Ok the windings aren't perfect, the cabinet isn't furniture grade, but again, it's a $300 speaker. I think this reviewer might have a grudge against Danny/GR research |
ASR's comment about square edges on the cabinet. Look at the latest review in TAS, the Stenhiem $72,000 speaker has square edges, along with Harbeth and many others which I think are some of the ugliest speakers out there, and I don't like the sound of the 1's I have heard. We are talking about a $300 speaker here. Sure, the winding of the coil might not be perfect, the $100 woodwork might not be furniture grade, but it's a $300 speaker. |
As many (most) have noted... how any component "measures" does not determine whether it sounds good to the listener, or not - that is just a FACT! More often than not, a component that sounds superb does not measure well... and one that does... not so much. Though... some metrics are relevant (e.g. impedance, efficiency, noise, damping factor)... to, among other things, determine how well components "match" one another (i.e. system matching or synergy matters most). Tube components often measure poorly - though - they often sound the best, depending on the entire set up. And... excessive noise can obscure detail resolution, etc. While poor damping factor can ruin bass response and control. So... consider selected metrics... when setting up your system... but... the sound that you finally achieve is all that matters. In fact... you will do better in assessing components from reviews, shows, manufacturers’ suggestions, and YouTube videos - determining the type of sound you prefer and can achieve. In fact - the comments of Nelson Pass in this thread sum it up quite well:
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There is a very interesting thread on ASR at the moment where consumers who purchased a Topping PA5 are finding that 30% of them fail very quickly. The minion master recommended this product and now neither he nor the manufacturer have the courage to face the unhappy purchasers. The silence is deafening. |
@james633 Thank you for a helpful contribution to the discussion, and especially for identifying those qualities of any speaker that are important and that can be measured. Speaker designers and those who evaluate speaker designs have learned to test single speakers for just those attributes you list. I’m not so sure about those who sell them however. Danny at GR Research strikes me as more a salesman than an engineer. I found Amir’s discussion of how to interpret the graphs quite helpful, and especially on how to ‘cheat’ by manipulating the test parameters. |
I didn't need ASR opinion to know this speaker wasn't anything I would be interested in. I think the main point is it isn't a "Giant killer" by any stretch of the imagination. Anyhow they are buying and a well known speaker builder, the same guy who built these, have purchased a $95 set to put together for comparison. |
this comment made all of this conversation a bit too surreal. that level of ignorance helps you realize just how unimportant all the view points of people truly are. |
Yes, on a fairly regular basis. Some of the most popular threads on ASR are when he reviews highly rated expensive audiophile gear and it doesn't measure well, and everybody gloats about Amir's "takedown". One that threw everybody for a loop was when Amir reviewed the Wilson Audio TuneTot. It didn't measure well, but Amir liked how it sounded and gave it his recommendation.
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"but the fundamental point was that the performance was poor relative to other DACs costing less." @barjohn You were asking for an example of his pathetic reviews & I gave you one. Note that he never bothered to listen to this DAC, just measured it & spouted out his typical BS for his audiophile hating audience to consume as gospel. |
I looked at his review on the MuseTec and frankly like many DACs the distortion would be below the hearing level for 99% of listeners, even at its worst. The jitter is more likely to be something that more people would be able to hear but the fundamental point was that the performance was poor relative to other DACs costing less. |
"I can appreciate that people do not like AM’s message," Thanks for understanding holmz "or maybe his message delivery"… Thanks again
"One might argue that a speaker that performs well objectively (measurements) will likely sound good" Correct, One might "Maybe you can point out which products he bashed without listening to them." One comes to mind... MuseTec MH-DA005 |
Maybe you can point out which products he bashed without listening to them. I have read or watched many of his reviews and I have not seen that. I also like Erin's Audio Corner and New Record Day for his binaural recordings and direct comparisons. One might argue that a speaker that performs well objectively (measurements) will likely sound good but the opposite cannot be said, i.e. that a speaker that measures poorly will sound good. |
I haven't heard the LGK 2 (or the previous LGK) but I have built a few of GR-Research's models (NX-Otica, NX-Studio, Servo OB subs) and they are among the best speakers I've owned and easily the best value. I lost all respect for Amir when I read a few reviews where he bashed well respected products (some of which I really like) without even listening to them and praised products which I (and many others) think sound pretty mediocre. At this point, I am not willing to give Amir or his site any additional credibility by visiting his the site or watching his videos. |
No, because not all claims are dependent on the truth of other claims. I have a mechanic who believes the Covid virus has microchips in it planted there by Bill Gates. He is paranoid, ill informed about politics, and allows his perception of facts to be twisted by ideology. In this subject matter, he's not credible. He also thinks that the rotors on my brakes are worn out because he's seen it a thousand times before and has physical evidence it's happening with my car, now. His job depends on good diagnoses, he has training in the relevant area, and he has evidence. I have no problem accepting the second claim regardless of the first. |
lanx003 " "Attack to Amir’s comments and disrespect got to end here, folks." And why is that? Is it because you have misinterpreted what GR has said? Anyone who rates and reviews equipment without listening to it is a complete waste of space and deserves to be ignored. Anyone who claims all Dacs sound the same and R2R Dacs are outdated technology is a fool. Likewise anyone who dismisses any criticism of a certain Chinese Dac as ridiculous has ears of tin and knows not of what they speak. |
Yeah I was talking to you… It looked like you have skin in the game? Secondly I am not sure it is prudent to classify @noske of idolatry? Defending a speaker that was deemed bad by ASR and good by others could make sense. I can appreciate that people do not like AM’s message, or maybe his message delivery… but it seems like it is totally divisive to discount the whole research arm as something to be removed. In this one on one, I think that I would have to side with AM over GR. That video clip did sound very distorted on play back, and if I was on a desk using them I would want to be able to hit 90dB being only ~1 meter away. |
And I do put some stock in the years of research as a way to help identify what is worth pursuing and what should be skipped over. To be confrontational to the point that you would defend these speakers seems like a risky pair of speakers to wager on being good. And I say that because we are not exactly talking comparing subtlety different, and subtly nuanced, top shelf gear here.
Maybe you can let us know how those GR “Little Giant Killers” sound to you? |
Your prediction of my listening preferences is completely irrelevant to me. To put it politely |
I have watched it up to minute 10 - by then Amir showed the freq graphs, and gave his opinion on them. I have noticed this his measurements are sound, but his interpretation is flawed. Amirs frequency measurements confirmed Dannys. However, he placed them in a context that his own measurements did not support. Here’s the details: Amirs ⅓ octave smoothing looks very close to Danny’s, a good confirmation - no contradiction whatsoever, it is a good confirmation of Danny’s published freq response curve. At the start Amir shows a finer scale measurement that reveals more details. This is no contradiction, no surprise, every professional knows that finer resolution will give a rougher picture. What it should not give is sudden large (approx 10dB or so) peaks and valleys. Amir confirms there are none of those, so he in fact confirms Danny’s measurements for being solid. |
You're not my supervisor!
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What Darko is quoting from Amir is on the public record over at ASR. It is not news. |
This suggests to me that measurements are very reliable in predicting your (and others expressing similar sentiments) listening preferences. |
The ASR review is (IMO) the equivalent of reviewing/measuring large Sound Lab's in a 4' x 6' room. I've used cheap 3" wide band speakers in a desk top situation (arm's length away) and they were pretty good. Mine were vintage Foster (later became Fostex) 10F3 alnico magnet drivers in Realistic Solo 103 cab's. The best 3" drivers I've listened to (15-20 years ago) were the metal cone offerings from Ted Jordan (1st and 2nd versions). Oddly enough Danny Richie (along with Bruce Edgar) were present the first time I heard them @ a DIY speaker gathering in Orange County, CA. The host (Thor) had mounted the Jordan's to small (maybe 2.5L) ceramic pots that had been internally damped. There were also Jordan's in wide/flat (TL?) cabs and 3" Fostex in BLH cabs. DeKay |
"No replacement for displacement" Words of wisdom. The idea that this tiny FR driver can handle FR music at any reasonable level is simply not credible, and the measurements prove it. As a NF monitor at lowish volumes, maybe a case can be made... but all Danny's usual assortment of tweaks like tube connectors, non-magnetic hardware and resistors, SoniCaps, etc. cannot overcome the limitations of the basic design choice. No substitute for engineering as seen in the Neumann active DSP monitor. This speaker should be called "Dwarf Food" not "Giant Killer". |