I recently shipped a Levinson 432 amplifier with UPS.I brought it to UPS and requested that they box it. It was insured. During transit UPS dropped the amplifier and pretty much destroyed it. I offered to pay for repairs, however the buyer had no interest in purchasing the item. UPS inspected the damaged amplifier and denied my claim, insisting the amplifier was not properly packaged. Corporate denied responsibility and said the issue was between myself and the UPS franchise that shipped it. I've been dealing with the franchise for a month and they are fighting with corporate in an attempt to adjudicate the issue. Meanwhile, I've repaid the buyer and have had no relief from UPS. The UPS website clearly states that if a franchise boxed the item they are responsible. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to resolve this issue, other than hiring an attorney? UPS seems to be somewhat of a scam operation. I did not realize that all UPS offices were franchises and am wondering why anyone would ship anything of value with them.
1st - For the life of me I can't imagine shipping a piece of audio gear of such value without packaging it up myself.
2nd - You're talking about a 100+ lb. amp.!! A piece like that either needs double boxing in extremely heavy gauge cardboard or a wooden shipping carton. I seriously doubt that a local UPS shipping center would have the materials to do the job.😲
3rd - Your "audio malpractice" killed a fine piece of audio equipment.🤯
4th - If you want the UPS franchise to reimburse you for the cost of the murdered gear, you are gonna need some legal talent.👔
5th - You messed up, but so have most of us at one time or another. I wish you the very best. Regardless of the outcome, if you learn from this then emphasize that as a positive.👍
You should have stood there and watched to make sure they packed your amp properly! I used my nearby UPS store here in Florida to pack and ship several components. All reached their destinations safely! Maybe my luck was better than yours! I didn't watch the packing process though!
File in Small Claims Court. That might get them off their butt and pay your loss. If not you can always go thru with it. It is a pretty simple process.
UPS does advertise themselves as Packing Experts. From the UPS website:
Trust The UPS Store
Certified Packing Experts®
Let our
packing experts do the job for you so your items arrive safely and intact
We
are trained in advanced packing techniques like block and brace, double
box, and suspension
We can
pack almost anything
We specialize in properly packing fragile and high-value items like artwork or
electronics.
The Pack & Ship Guarantee may now be extended to include coverage for USPS® and DHL® shipments.†
If a participating The UPS Store® location packs your item using only
new materials purchased at that participating location, and ships the
package via UPS, USPS, or DHL (on that participating location’s
applicable UPS, USPS, or DHL account) and that item is damaged or lost
in transit, you’ll be reimbursed*:
The item's value (subject to the lesser of actual value, replacement or repair cost)
The full retail price you paid for packaging materials and services
Your cost for shipping (excluding Declared Value charges or costs for Insurance as applicable)
I am not sure on what basis UPS is denying your claim. Does your receipt indicate that UPS packed the amp
When I went into UPS I requested double boxing and they stated it wasn't necessary They claimed to have special boxes for shipping heavy, fragile items. I spent a half hour there explaining the fragility and cost of the amplifier. I thought okay, they are the experts. I think resolution depends upon the particular UPS franchise that one deals with. I paid an additional $200 for 'insurance.' From what I've read it's not really insurance anyway. It's declared value, which is the maximum liability the franchise will provide. I've challenged corporate on this issue and they have no response. I guess real insurance would effect their bottom line too much. Almost as bad, my home owners insurance wants to pick up the amplifier and attempt to have it repaired. If you saw the amplifier, even if repaired, I wouldn't sell it to anybody. It's a Levinson 432, and the entire outer casing has been crushed. The face plate has come off. The handles on the back are bent.
OP - Can you go back to the UPS location and get names of employees you dealt with that day who made the assurances you note above? A small claims suit may not be able to provide sufficient monies to compensate you for the value of the destroyed amp. So you might check that first in your locality. If the amount is sufficient, then take it to small claims and have the names of who told you what at UPS.
Based on your 10:50 AM post above, I can't see how you wouldn't win that battle. Once they receive notice from the local magistrate that a suit has been filed they may change their tune and pay up rather than appear with a losing case in court. Good Luck!🍀
I concur with Hifiman5, File a suit in small claims court. If they don't show up, you will win. If they do show up, present your evidence. I am not a lawyer, but I think you have sufficient claim. B
I want to let everyone know that I spoke with UPS and they settled the claim in my favor. I haven't received a check yet. I didn't mention that my wife, who happens to be an attorney, had e-mailed a letter to the franchise owner letting him know that a lawsuit would be pending unless the issue was resolved. Thirty hours of aggravation, a wonderful amplifier destroyed, and probably two months will have gone by the time I'm compensated. The buyer went way out of his way to help me, taking pictures, and actually speaking with UPS several times on his own initiative. What I've learned from this is that it's imperative to find a UPS franchise that you feel comfortable with. Talk directly with the owner. Let him inspect the packaging and sign off on it. Secondly, even if one does their own boxing, UPS will go out of their way to find some sort of flaw with the packaging. I actually think that the amplifier was properly packaged. Unfortunately, it was dropped off a truck. Unless one gets some sort of certification from UPS that your audio equipment was packaged properly, or even if they packaged it; Beware. What I've learned? There has got to be a better way. At any rate, thanks for all the help and encouragement. I'll let you know if and when I get compensated.
@catsally1 Your wife is an attorney? Shut up! You had this thing in the bag with in house legal talent! Nothing like sending correspondence on attorney letterhead. Super glad to hear that this is being resolved in your favor! Hopefully the wait for the check will be short. What do you plan to do with the money since the Levinson was destroyed? Also, sounds like you had a quality buyer. Hopefully he can procure an amp. to suit his needs.👍
That's why companies get custom boxes for their product. If you couldn't get the original packing, you should have carried it there yourself....or not send it at all.
I never and will never use ups for shipping audio gear. I was told that they have a 5’ drop from 1 conveyer to another. Not sure if that’s true. I have had luck with fedex and use them for everything. For large or heavy pieces of gear, I usually state local pickup only. For example, I just sold a pair of Usher speakers and the gentleman drove 8 hours each way to pick them up.
Sounds like it’s resolved. For future reference, if you pay with a credit card, most have all different types complimentary insurance, extended warranties, preferred shippers & just general protection for you. Ex you never need the extra liability insurance for rentals. I have had a number of issues & Amex has always resolved in my favor. But Vsa, for me, has not been helpful (neighbors have had great support. But, always try to use your credit cards leverage.
Man I'm glad I read this post tonight. I just packed up a ML 432 amp today to send for repair and even though it "feels" like it's well packed. Inside a Dell/EMC SAN box that just fit the amp. I'm going to double box it tomorrow before having Fedex come pick it up.
FWIW, I have had equally bad experiences with both UPS and FedEx. It seems to me that there is a direct relationship between the weight of the item and the likelihood of damage being incurred. FedEx roughed-up a Rogue Cronus Mag II that I purchased from a fellow in Las Vegas. I warned him - actually pleaded with him to double box it. He said he would do his best. No double box =d damaged amp. He made good for the refurb done by Rogue Audio (great folks), but I drove it to Rogue (I live in Pa about 90 minutes from them) and picked it up when finished. I didn't want the headache of trying to wrangle culpability out of FedEx as it came nearly across the entire U.S. and had been at multiple FedEx terminals. At which point was the damage sustained? I actually went to the FedEx terminal to pick the amp up as they had missed two proposed delivery dates (that I took off from work for) due to weather which wasn't so bad that I couldn't drive there. When the terminal employee (a lady) opened the truck that it was loaded in for delivery, the first clue that things were likely not going to go well was that the boxed amp - in it's original factory container - was standing on edge despite being clearly marked with large arrows and verbiage to do otherwise. The large puncture through the outer (and only) carton was the next reason my heart sank. I even opened the box up and eyeballed the amp. There was no apparent damage. It appeared that whatever they 'speared' it with, wasn't long enough to actually reach the amp which was suspended on heavy, dense foam carriers. Upon powering it up when I got home, it was obvious there were internal issues. On another occasion, UPS Ground Freight delivered a heavy (200 + lbs.) pellet grill to me that looked as though it had been dropped out of low-flying aircraft. I could go on, but you get the point.
catsally1, was your resolution verbally stated with UPS or was there something in writing? Documenting your case with either police report, letter or email is always a good idea. Hope you receive your check sooner than later. Cheers!
UPS destroyed an amp I had sent to the manufacturer for repair. The manufacturer handled everything, so I don’t know how it was settled, but the 64 lb. amp was not double boxed. The amp was obviously dropped at some point. When I sent it in, I had UPS Store box it up. They used a box way too large for it, with air-filled plastic packaging. I was not happy. It cost me over $140 to pack, ship (ground) and insure the amp. Also, I have heard that UPS stores can charge whatever they want for "insurance". There is no set price scale from UPS that they must follow.
In contrast, I just got a subwoofer delivered by FedEx. 80+ lbs. in the box. Two FedEx delivery guys brought it to my door and into the house. The box was in perfect shape. I think I will be sticking with FedEx from now on, even if I have to box things myself. In my area, Walgreens drugstores will accept FedEx packages for shipping. Very convenient.
ebeneezerfeeblegeezer has it right in his assessment. I quit using UPS years ago when I watched a driver getting off his truck in front of my house drop a tube amp on the step of that truck. He looks up and sees me in the window and says nothing about it when I open the door. The sound of broken glass (tubes) within the box made my decision to refuse delivery due to damage. Hate them.
Unfortunately I have also learned the hard way that UPS, when it comes to claims for damages are not to be trusted in any way whatsoever and will actually tamper with evidence and alter the facts to avoid paying out in any way they can. Heady claims you say, I agree but it happened to me too. I shipped a pair of speakers from Florida to Arizona in the original speaker boxes but then also inside a pair of heavy duty bought from the UPS store golf club boxes ( these are great cheap options for shipping speakers if you do not have boxes btw!). Now I plastered these boxes with signs I printed out and taped on along the lines of , FRAGILE, DO NOT BEND, ELECTRONICS, THIS WAY UP etc. Now my local UPS driver is a very nice guy and when he came to pick these up from my house I asked if I could take a picture of them loaded in his truck standing up with all the packaging labels showing which he had no problem with at all. Needless to say they arrived at the buyers looking like they had been run over by an 18 wheeler and both speakers completely wasted.Buyer sent me lots of photos and what was very interesting was that ALL of my labels were gone from both boxes, every single one. dealing with ups claims the lady tried to insist they were not in speaker boxes despite the original speaker boxes and packaging were INSIDE the ups golf club boxes and there was NO indication of goods or fragility, seriously. I demanded to speak to a supervisor who I eventually got after 30 minutes wait and we went through it all again, at this juncture I asked for her email so I could send her the pictures of these speakers loaded onto the ups truck at my house. She asked why and as soon as I said that they showed the boxes covered with warning labels and that after destroying the boxes in transit a ups employee must have removed all labels and tried to cover their backsides she agreed to receive the pictures. To her credit she called me back in 10 minutes, apologised and said ups will cover the full cost of the speakers insured value and refund the shipping charges. Trust them no further than you can throw them! Get all the evidence you can, I take pictures of all my major items shipping and have done for years.
FedEx isn't perfect, but I stop using UPS 10 years ago after a problem with one of their stores. I've developed a very good relationship with my local FedEx employees. They consistently go out if their way to assist me.
Most damage is caused by poor packing. For large heavy items, double boxing is important, but it’s just as important to use the proper materials. Boxes and packing materials have specifications for the intended purpose. Even double boxing with light duty supplies for a heavy item is risky. Proper packing with proper supplies should make it difficult for damage even with some rough handling. Please understand I’m not talking about something absurd like driving a forklift through the box.
As far as the "trained experts", I’m sure some do an excellent job, while others are no better than a 6 year old doing it. Just like everything else, some are professional and take pride in what they do, while others just go through the motions because they are required to do so.
Also, I think it's a bad idea to mark fragile, etc. Sure, some will try to comply with the message, but idiots are everywhere and this prompts them to do just the opposite.
Lemme tell ya few thingies about UPS shipping. There were 3 instances of them shipping credenza to my mom's home with UPS with original manufacturer packaging:
1st instance almost all panels damaged and box had visible puncture and drop damage -- requested replacement.
2nd instance -- replacement came-in with several panels damaged especially the base one -- requested replacement.
3rd instance very similar to 1st.
After all from 3 boxes I was able to put together one credenza.
No matter how GOOD you pack unless you pack it onto the gigantic bubble wrapped ball, the odds of successful delivery with UPS are quite low.
I disagree with NOT labeling as fragile etc for the simple fact I am sure it helped me save my money in my aforementioned post. Yes some monkeys will see it as an enticement to try to damage but that is today's pathetic work ethic at play. As far as at least giving you some credibility to say you tried to ask them to take care I think it outweighs the concerns. Just my opinion.....
Thanks for all the responses. I think the primary reason my claim was resolved was due to the letter my lawyer-wife sent to the owner of the franchise. I was also very lucky in that the buyer was so awesome. He was bummed about the amp, but was also really upset that it happened to me. He's still sitting around with the box and the amp, hopefully not in his living room, waiting for resolution. However, regardless of how well something is boxed, UPS will go way out of their way to deny liability, and even in my case, when they did the actual packaging. It's right on their website, if they packaged and it is damaged, they are liable. Really, what is one supposed to do, go in to their store with a tape recorder to gather evidence in case something goes wrong. Can you imagine going into the franchise and asking them, "Do you mind me recording this conversation." But why should anyone ever have to go through the hassle of small claims court and the countless abusive phone calls between corporate UPS and the UPS franchise. What a waste of time and aggravation. We all have better things to do with our lives.
At any rate, I'm liquidating all of my audio gear because I'm moving to Europe. I have very expensive speakers that I'm shipping to California and I'm having them crated for International shipping at the buyer's request. The buyer requested the ISPM label which I assume is a requirement for International. My mover, Pickens-Kane uses Allied Van, and while they will crate they won't ship anything under 1000 lbs. I've spoken with Fed-Ex, and while they don't crate, they will box and inspect the crating, and if they feel the packaging is adequate they will then transport and guarantee against breakage. They have some sort of formula, in which they guarantee a dollar amount per pound. I spoke to them at length and they seem more reputable than UPS. Do you guys think Fed Ex is safe? If not what are the alternatives?
The crazy thing is that 4 months ago I sent a very expensive vintage watch for repair and used UPS. All I have to say is Thank God it wasn't damaged or lost. I don't think I would have ever recovered.
I have found over the years that FedEx appear to have a much better track record with goods to and from my house and their customer service has been more friendly than ups. As a bonus at least in my area FedEx ground deliver on Sat as well whereas ups do not.
I ship all of my items either FedEx or good old USPS only. Ups do not even get quoted.
Of all amplifiers destroyed by UPS one stands out, its Macintosh, with their glass fronts I have seen thousands of shattered Mac amplifiers many were boxed with Mac's own dual boxes fastened to plywood bases to prevent any movement. UPS has mastered the art of trashing McIntosh amplifiers, no matter how well they are boxed it is going to happen. I do not know how McIntosh ships their new equipment to their dealers, who they use for shipping? I wonder how many reach their destination in one piece !!!!!!!!!!!
Unfortunately for the glass fronted mac units present rapidly deteriorating road conditions are not helping. They are VERY prone to vibration and jarring. Even if they have not been mishandled on purpose the sheer rigours of modern day ground transport can take one out. I have had two arrive to me with shattered glass with no obvious signs of abuse to the boxing at all.
I love the dumb comments to the OP that he should have packed the amp. I know nothing about properly protecting heavy audio equipment and I bet neither do most of the people claiming all of us should package our heavy products ourselves.
@vahes "thousands". Really? Are you a dealer or what circumstance would place you in a position to see that many shattered Mc amps.?
@sfseay Do you keep the original shipping cartons of the gear you own? I would hope so. I don't understand not having the original boxes designed to protect the gear.
I would NEVER allow a UPS or even FEDEX employee pack up my gear. If really in a pinch, I would contact the manufacturer and pay them for a carton made for the equipment in question. Most top notch companies will do so willingly and for a reasonable price. Simple and smart.
I keep all boxing from items I buy but unfortunately when you buy used the item you buy may not have its original box any longer and so gets shipped in a different box. In that case then no you do not have the original packaging to use when /or you decide to sell.
Ok, that was an exaggeration on my part, and no I am not a dealer, perhaps I should have used
the word “countless” instead.
I am a Mac owner, have been for at least 45 years and I do
participate in various Mac forums, that is where I see pictures of shattered Mac
face plates, too many to count or remember.
I have a pair of original Mc2205’s that I am using with a bi-amped speaker system, if I am not mistaken these were introduced back in
1977, old enough to benefit from an overall upgrade.
I always wanted to send these to Terry Dewick for an
upgrade, but I am scared, even if these are shipped in a McIntosh original shipping box, I am afraid that they will not survive.
I actually thought that sfeay made a valid point. Personal comments on forums are never necessary, and I'm not talking about sfeay. We're all hear to learn and exchange ideas. I'll never understand why disparaging remarks are ever made and are usually precursors to food fights. These things really detract from the quality of the forum, and I'm sure discourage good people from ever posting. My takeaway from the posts and my personal experience is that regardless of how well something is packaged, if it falls off a truck or is run over by a forklift, it's going to be ruined. If an individual does his own packing, and even if it is packaged properly, more often than not, UPS will find a way to deny the claim. There is actually a greater likelihood of collecting what they call 'insurance' if you let them pack it. Okay, supervise the packing, but make sure they are involved.
whenEVER possible...save original boxes & packing. they were specifically designed for your product. an attic, a closet, basement, shed.... i know its a hassle. but look what OP just went thru. but IF you drop off to be packed, take multiple pics on their counter. with employees if you can. pictures are free...get pics or video of the packing process. so happy for your outcome. best wishes.
Uberwaltz-- Thank you. Nobody else mentioned using the Post Office. I have made over 300 tube amps from scratch. I'm also a retired Postmaster. The amps I mailed went through the Post Office. Never an issue. Then again, i always did double box and significantly over pack. It's much easier to spend a little time and effort on bulletproof packingthan dealing with a long distance claim.
If it is not considered too off topic, I have a question that may be best addressed by the retired postmaster kqvkq9 although I certainly welcome comments by anyone who cares to chime in. I have a small brick and mortar sports collectible business that I have owned and operated in the same location for 28 years. Naturally, I have insurance for my business and I pay a premium for that insurance. I must repeat, I pay for the insurance for my business. I use the USPS on a daily basis shipping mostly small, First Class packages and a few Priority Mail packages that can weigh up to 20 pounds . These type packages are very easy to package safely. The values on these packages range from $10.00 to $4,000.00. My question is this...If I pay the USPS their fee, which is based on weight and distance, to deliver a package, which is their job, why must I pay them extra to "Insure" that they do the job that I just paid them to do?! This of course holds true also for UPS, FedEx etc..
I recently had a similar problem with FedEx but I had done all the packing myself. I was able to sell the item that had slight damage but lost $2K in the deal. My packing was actually overdone but "gorillas" must have handled it in transit.
While I agree with some of the comments here regarding going nuclear on the packaging somebody has to pay for it. In todays market try asking the buyer to pay an extra $150 to help protect his purchase, they are just going to move right along 99% of the time. So now the seller has to stump up and this cuts into an already greatly reduced baseline due to the terrible selling conditions in the market right now. Lets face it about the only way anything is selling is on price period, does not really matter what it is. Yes what cost to protect the goods being shipped is the moral story here and again agreed on principle. But when it boils down to a deal where you are likely already bleeding money it may just not be financially viable.
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