insurance and shipping with UPS

I have currently been dealing with UPS shipping around 19 years and have learned some very valuable lessons during that time. First of all if something has value over $100 dollars you need to insure for over the based value of what you are shipping or they absolutely will not cover it, also always pack the item yourself and never trust anyone to do it for you. If the item has a lot of weight I would simply not ship UPS as it will get damaged or destroyed. If I am forced to ship a heavy item with them pack it like it is being protected from a nuclear blast! We will pack the box inside another box padding all with no room for movement of the item and that way it has a buffer. Also the UPS area you are in will have a rep you can reach out to and this may help you with dealing with the franchise since they are representing their company. Good Luck!

Here is my somewhat jaundiced view of shipping in the USA from the last 20 years.

Small items up to about 2-3lb weight I find the USPS is very good and fairy priced, tbh in all this time they have never damaged anything and only lost one item.

Medium weight items up to abut 15lb is pretty much a wash cost wise between USPS,UPS and Fedex. Again USPS have been good, Fedex have been good and the only times I tried UPS resulted in damage or seriously delayed delivery!

Heavy items over 30lb it is no contest , Fedex are usually far and away cheaper. Their service is faster than UPS, usually by at least a day on say coast to coast . They have not damaged anything as of yet or lost anything. UPS I have already detailed one of their train wrecks which was not the only one.
In my area at least Fedex also delivers normal ground on a Saturday without having to pay extra for this, UPS do not.

saying all of that I do use UPS a lot...….for next day air letters, this they have been very good at for 20 years never losing one or damaging one, I suspect a completely different department. 

I have also had issues with UPS. Sent an SME 345 tonearm to a friend in California (I’m in in the Toronto area). I keep all my original packaging for ALL my gear, so no problem with me packing it properly in it’s original packaging, and then double boxing. I brought it to UPS and was told that in order to have it insured, it would have to be packed by UPS !! Yeah right, like I’m going to let those chimps handle a tonearm !! I opened my double box, and the original SME packaging and asked if they could possibly package it better than the manufactures original packaging. The answer was obviously "no". So, they agreed to insuring if they did the double boxing (for an additional fee of course) So it arrives in LA, and of course, it’s damaged!! Go figure!! We fought with UPS on both ends for weeks. Luckily we both had photos pre and post shipping. We were eventually awarded partial compensation (around 75%) if I remember correctly. We settled for this, as the damage was purely cosmetic, and not affecting the performance of the arm. UPS is not to be trusted is my lesson learned. Now I have another shipping issue coming up that I am dreading. I bought a ClearAudio Double Matrix Pro Sonic RCM about a year and a half ago. It has to go back to the importer in Montreal for a warranty repair. It is fairly heavy, about 40 lbs. and is very expensive. I now have to figure out a method of getting it from here to there, and properly insuring it for replacement value. I am almost considering driving the 8 - 10 hrs each way to be on the safe side. What a hassle shipping has become.

Talking of UPS, I am waiting for an amp to be delivered which unfortunately the seller insisted on using a local UPS store to pack and ship as they do not have oem packing for it.
This is travelling from Cali to Florida so we will see how it fares, I hope for the best but I will be covered one way or another.
Hope it does not turn into the same mess as the OP post though.

Spin4cards-
Maddening, I know. For "premium" services like Priority, Express, and COD,
the insurance is included up to a certain amount. The firm can't include big insurance automatically because the few claimants would raise rates for all.
If you've got something truly valuable, Registered is the way to go. It's not only much safer but when we're talking thousands in value, it actually costs less.

Based on the name, I presume that you're mailing mainly Baseball cards and things of that sort. Small, light, inexpensive to mail while still possiblycontaining items of considerable value. Those are going First Class which has long been the basic letter rate. Those aren't automatically insured because of the volume realized. At least that's my take. Upper Managementnever gives us any rationale as to the why of things. We get the rates and guidelines and very rarely the thought behind why they are set.

In any case, First Class being the basic rate for small items not mailed in bulk can be insured, as you note, but aren't automatically. Imagine, if you will, if all letters carried some sort of insurance. We're not talking millions of pieces in that category but billions. I used to get calls all the time about what one can do if a letter goes astray. A lot of those letters contained checks of various stripes, some quite large. While there are clumsy mechanisms in place that help us stumble through finding packages, even small ones, letter rate being both small and exceedingly numerous, poses a real problem. Should the Post Office include some sort of indemnity on the smallest, most numerous items, one could expect a deluge of claims thatwould raise rates to uncomfortable levels.

Now Officially, I don't know any of that. That's never Officially stated anywhere that I know of and I was there for over 45 years before retiring a few months ago. Common sense though leads me to those conclusions.
To oversimplify, For 50¢ what do you expect?


Realistically, there could be some sort of separation between actual letters and Small Parcels with the small parcel category including some sort of indemnity. I don't know that it's ever been proposed. Those things go through the Postal Rate Commission and we have some serious, high level intellect operating there. At the local level we're frequently puzzled with what goes on higher up the chain.

Isn't that the case with every business?

If there's something that I've neglected in my aimless ramblings here, please do ask. I've likely missed something and I'll do my best to reply.

The last time I shipped by UPS I was told insurance would only cover damage if they packed the item. If I packed, insurance only reimbursed if the the package was lost. So, contrary to several comments here, packing the item yourself is not a great solution either. I haven't shipped UPS since.

I worked for UPS for a while. I’m also a collector and seller of higher-end audio and know how to pack properly. There’s no excuse for them not to pack that amp properly. I would have double-boxed it with 2x shippers and floated it in foam peanuts. UPS has all the right materials. 

The Pack and Ship service is obligated to make good- esp. if they pack it. As a seller, you need to declare the correct replacement value and must have some proof- a sales receipt is sufficient.

The local franchise sleezed-out and I’m glad you finally got help. 

BTW- there are no limits on the value of the item they will handle- they may choose to crate an item over $1000. It’s still their responsibility.

Glad to hear that UPS finally paid the claim. Fwiw neither UPS nor Fedex Ground provides insurance per se like the OP mentioned. The Declared Value fee that they use is to determine maximum liability in case of a necessary payout in the event of theft or damage. If you wade deep into the bowels of the Fedex website you’ll find this statement in upper-case: FEDEX DOES NOT PROVIDE INSURANCE. I discovered that the hard way several years ago.

Afaik the Post Office is the only entity that actually insures what you’re shipping.  I've shipped high-end gear via our esteemed Postal Service for many years and never had to make a single claim.  But then again I double-boxed and over-packed everything to withstand a nuclear blast.  

I just ordered a sub from SVS and was sent a e-mail that it would be in delivered today by end of day. The carrier was fed-ex. Took the day off and at 2pm was sent a fed ex e-mail that I was not home to sign and take delivery. WOW. Never left my home and checked my video and not one truck or fed ex employee ever came to my front door. Called fed-ex and got the run around. Next date will be next Monday by end of day and will have to take another day off. It will be 50/50 at best for delivery if the same clowns are on the truck. Will be willing to give it one more try, otherwise SVS will get it sent back. It is not their fault but it would be time to pay a visit to a brick and mortar store. Just adding my two cents!!!

Thanks Elizabeth. Fed ex did offer for me to pick up at their depot. But it would be impossible for me to put a 120lb sub in my 3 series bmw.
 It just ruined my day . The lying really got to me , but as you made clear the guys doing the delivery have very little incentive. Even my regular fed ex guy told me it is not uncommon for these guys to do skips and then lie about it. I just do not want to rent a van and go through all the hassle. SVS offers free delivery which was a attractive option. Will see when Monday comes. LOL

While there is a 70 pound limit that would eliminate some of these items from consideration, Registered Mail can have insurance for up to $25,000with no issues. The items are passed from hand to hand in the Post Office with each person that handles the piece personally responsible. Those items do not go through the regular mail in any fashion. For a higher fee, armed guards are used. It's an archaic system that has never really needed an update. That's because it works.


The Hope Diamond went to the Smithsonian via Registered Mail.

I'm just sayin'...

spin4cards7 posts07-26-2018 10:25pmIf it is not considered too off topic, I have a question that may be best addressed by the retired postmaster kqvkq9 although I certainly welcome comments by anyone who cares to chime in. I have a small brick and mortar sports collectible business that I have owned and operated in the same location for 28 years. Naturally, I have insurance for my business and I pay a premium for that insurance. I must repeat, I pay for the insurance for my business. I use the USPS on a daily basis shipping mostly small, First Class packages and a few Priority Mail packages that can weigh up to 20 pounds . These type packages are very easy to package safely. The values on these packages range from $10.00 to $4,000.00. My question is this...If I pay the USPS their fee, which is based on weight and distance, to deliver a package, which is their job, why must I pay them extra to "Insure" that they do the job that I just paid them to do?! This of course holds true also for UPS, FedEx etc..

You really only need to think about it for a moment. No business would willingly accept $4000 of liability for $15.95. If you have an item of high value, you need to act accordingly. Is the auto insurance the same for a 1970 Gremlin and a Ferrari? Do they weigh the cars to set the premium? Of course not.

I avoid UPS at all costs. The last piece of gear I bought was shipped via UPS (I forgot to specify against UPS).  It was double-boxed by the seller yet arrived damage anyway.  From what I can imagine based on the damages, I estimate the box was dropped from at least waist-high onto a concrete surface.  Fortunately the amp was repairable and the seller even had replacement parts (surprisingly).  I didn't even bother with the claim expecting a similar situation as yours.  I made the repairs myself with the parts sent to me by the seller.
I much prefer FedEx Ground or USPS.  With USPS, filing a claim is so much easier than anywhere else.

In response to Builder3's post...I'm still not buying it... I paid you (USPS, FedEx etc.) to do your job which is simply to deliver a package. If you can't deliver it safely and in a timely fashion then you need to do something about it. That "Something About It" would not be to make billions of dollars by charging the customer in case you screw up. Very convenient arrangement wouldn't you say?
"KQVQ9", the retired postmaster said in an earlier post... "What do you expect for 50 cents"? I expect you to do your job regardless of what the package is presumed to be worth. What do you get when you multiply that 50 cents times billions, yes that's right, billions of packages? You get billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars! I think for those kind of numbers we should not have to worry about theft or damage.
They may not willingly accept responsibility but they should. Of course, they never will.  

Yep, that's what I thought. Somebody looking for something for nothing.


Now by your own admission, when you insure your business, you pay for it.You're proud of that. Do you expect your insurance company to accept indemnity for your belongings because you're a responsible individual?Nope. you pay your way. You said as much.

On the other hand, you expect the Post Office and by implication, all other carriers to assume liability for your items for basically nothing. It doesn't work that way. There's a cost involved. Insurance is available for the prudent buyer. That's a cost of doing business.


Quite a few years ago, during nuclear disarmament talks, Edward Shevardnadze, the representative of the Soviet Union said  "There's no free launch".

@spin4cards

How’s life treating you in that parallel universe that you’re living in? You should probably cancel your auto insurance while you’re at it. Total waste of money.

HiFi equipment needs double boxing. 
I had a Audio Research GS-Pre (expensive) shipped in from a dealer out of state, as I walked towards the Fedex guy he dropped the box from waist height as if it was an empty box. The preamp was double boxed and was fine.
Also, I had a pair of expensive speakers shipped via freight, one box shifted on the wooden pallet as the tethers had come loose. Someone used the blade of the forklift to push the box back on the pallet, the blade had punctured the cardboard box leaving the blade shape in a few places, luckily the speakers were fine.
These companies don't care, they know it costs around 5k to retain an attorney. 

spin4cards-
There's a scene in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court  where the Yankee has an economics discussion with a local. The two disagree. The Yankee has a moment of inspiration and shows in detail how his position is correct. It's wonderful. The discussion is over. he's proven his case in a manner beyond dispute.

That's when he realizes that he's having a discussion with an addle pate, a buffoon that is simply incapable of understanding the simplest of things. I've always thought it a great moment in literature as it illustrates a situation that we sometimes find ourselves in.

Ahem.

Yep, that's what I thought. Another self righteous, condescending disrespectful a-goner who thinks he is smarter than the other person.
Well sir, let the record show that I never once referred to you as a buffoon.

Touche 

Well this WAS a fairly interesting thread now rocketing down the tubes at a high rate of knots!

uberwaltz-

Well, you never know when you're going to open up Pandora's can of worms, do you?

Hey Mr. Moderator.....Delete this !

spin4cards11 posts07-28-2018 7:46am

In response to Builder3’s post...I’m still not buying it... I paid you (USPS, FedEx etc.) to do your job which is simply to deliver a package. If you can’t deliver it safely and in a timely fashion then you need to do something about it. That "Something About It" would not be to make billions of dollars by charging the customer in case you screw up. Very convenient arrangement wouldn’t you say?
"KQVQ9", the retired postmaster said in an earlier post... "What do you expect for 50 cents"? I expect you to do your job regardless of what the package is presumed to be worth. What do you get when you multiply that 50 cents times billions, yes that’s right, billions of packages? You get billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars! I think for those kind of numbers we should not have to worry about theft or damage.
They may not willingly accept responsibility but they should. Of course, they never will.

Anyone that goes on about the billions and billions, etc, that the post office gets isn’t knowledgeable enough to even have a discussion with. They go billions in the hole every year. If they were in fact, a "business", like kqvkq9 suggested, they lights would’ve been turned off a couple of decades ago.  Spin, by your logic, you apparently should be able to also get car insurance or homeowner’s insurance the same way? One flat fee, like buying a cheese sandwich? Don’t be ridiculous.The ironic part always is how quickly someone like you would understand fully and completely, were the shoe on the other foot.

All I said was.... I paid you your fee (USPS) to deliver a package. You (USPS) insure it. Not me. For saying simply that, you have clowns like hifijones jumping in claiming that I live in a "parallel universe" and that I should cancel my effen car insurance! Those are ignorant, condescending smart-ass remarks. Then, when I put them in their place with my next post, my post gets removed but their condescending BS post towards me remains. BTW, if I am not knowledgeable enough to even have a discussion with, why did you bother to post this message as if I would not see it? That was a rhetorical question.

This is my favorite unhappy subject.  During the last 6 months I purchased 8 power vintage amplifiers on e-bay ranging from 30 to 77 lbs.  Of those 8, 3 were severely damaged during shipment.  When I purchase a power amp I make sure to message the seller that I’ve had issues with large heavy amps not being packaged properly.  I do this before I bid and give em a little time to react.   I’m kind in my message but I am on a mission to protect that amp and educate the seller regarding proven shipping methods.  At least half of the sellers swore they do a super packaging job.  Be it UPS or USPS or Fed Ex, its the luck of the draw who handles it at any particular transition point.  From Norwegian hammer throws to setting down a newborn baby, its going to get the full treatment.  I respectfully ask the seller to double box it, including doubling the corner walls with extra corrugated, and wrapping the unit itself in bubble wrap and then tightly taping it 100%.  I also ask them to put braces between the knobs (such as styrofoam, not bubble wrap for the braces between) that will absorb the internal forces against the faceplate vs. the knobs bearing the thrust of shocks.  I had one arrive where it was double boxed but the seller did such a lousy job of securing it inside the first box that it rambled around like a bowling ball and destroyed half the knobs, they were bent into their pockets.  The outside of the box had no holes or dents.  I carefully also take pictures of the box when it arrives and as I’m unpacking it to show the seller, and more often and more important, e-bay, so I can document the damage and compare it to the listing pictures for a refund if the seller gets crabby about refunding.  E-bay has been very good when providing detailed photographic evidence.  Its just such a shame, waiting for that prize to arrive and its been molested due to bad packaging.  And it takes time.  What I do now is I offer to pay extra packaging fees (usually offer $25) if they do exactly what I ask them to do, and I make sure to say it in a way as to not offend.  Double box is simply to give it a puncture zone so it does not penetrate the inside box.  It must have extra corrugated slid between the boxes as well.   A 77 lb amp with sharp corners is not going to survive even double packaging unless it is absolutely snug inside the first box and that box is snug inside the 2’nd box, and its been made nearly bulletproof.  I’ve driven 250 miles to pick up big amps.  Its worth it when the amp is exactly what I’m looking for and appears pristine.  I must also add that some of the sellers have been more than happy to go nuts on fulfilling my request, especially if I offer to pay for the extra packaging.   These have all arrived safety, some were beat up outside, but not inside.   That brings a smile to my face.  Tape, tape tape.  Ebay should make a video on how to package such heavy sharp animals.

The other point I missed is the huge misunderstanding e-bay sellers have with e-bay’s policy of “no-returns”.  That means exactly what is says, returns, not refund.  When a seller selects no returns on their profile it means they really don’t want the item sent back to them.  It does not mean they are exonerated from owning the quality of packaging towards insuring the package arrives safely or accurate listings.  Most sellers don’t understand this, and some try to stand behind “no returns” as meaning no refunds regardless of the reasons or events.  In the end, e-bay will stand behind 99% of buyers if the buyer provides proof of damage or proof the item was not as described.  The sellers can say in the listing they will not pay for shipping return costs.  If they do, the buyer must pay the return shipping.  E-bay will work hard to make the buyer return the item to the seller before they will back you with their refund guarantee.  In most cases the seller cooperates and pays for the return, but if they don’t and the buyer has to pay the return, e-bay will still reimburse you the shipping cost back with their guarantee IF you have proof of damage or proof of misrepresentation of the item listing.  I find most sellers feel terrible if the package is damaged, but not all and I’ve had to ask for e-bays’ help on some of these when the seller got angry or would not respond.   Its pretty easy to tell if a package was properly packaged once you open it up and see the care or carelessness of the inside materials and how secure it was made.  Its impossible to predict how badly it will be handled, so all precautions must be taken to package it to literally be dropped 6 ft.  For the record, when I go the other way I literally build a clam shell for the amp out of a dissected styrofoam cooler, much like the factory OEM clamshells that electronics are shipped in from the factories, and double box, add corrugated, bridge the knobs, tape 100% of the bubble wrap, and tape 100% of the inside and outside box.   I’ve never had an amp damaged going the other way doing these things.  Never say never, but so far so good.    

Hope I'm not adding fuel to the fire here, but I do see (in a way) @spin4cards reasoning. and I'll explain why. There seems to be an environment of un-accountability in today's society of commerce. We can pay for a service up front, but after cash is in hand, and if things go south, well, now it's our problem, not theirs. I understand that sometimes things do go wrong, and a premium for insurance is an obvious given. That being said though, even after all due diligence and insurance premiums have been accounted for, my experience is that they still try to weasel out of their responsibility. If I ran my business in such a fashion, well, I would be out of business.  Not trying to "kick the beehive" here, but I think I know what he's getting at.

I have to admit to thinking along the same lines.
When you ship ANY item with ANY carrier you are entering into a 2 way contract.
You pay them for a service, which is to deliver your goods in a timely manner and undamaged.
The idea that you should have to pay extra ( over what they just quoted you for said service) to insure this happens is nonsense in reality.
You have agreed a service between two parties, your end is packing it really well yourself and paying the carrier, their end is delivering it to the correct address undamaged. Really boils down to that.
Now if you knowingly make a crabby job of packing well you know who to blame, look in the mirror.
If you made a great job and all sellers with any integrity really should and it gets there damaged then that’s on the carrier.
Yes there should be an agreed value for liability and yes this may make your shipping cost more but to call it insurance is incorrect.
And once you have agreed that value and paid extra that should be it. Not " we will give you 75% of value", that is absurd!

And yes I realise this may incense some here and ruffle some feathers...oh well.

For the last 20 years of shipping delicate heavy items (furniture and audio equipment), I rely on FedEx and never use UPS in California (from or to).  UPS has a bad reputation in this state while FedEx hasn't caused problems for me (yet?).   UPS does deliver quickly within the state for items that are not heavy or not fragile (such as cases of grade juice in small cans, tightly wrapped and double boxed).  I've sent a McIntosh MX110 to Israel 20 years ago without damage and it was only double boxed with lots of bubble wrap around the preamp.  I would have used stiff styrofoam instead today.

@uberwaltz  +1  

I think you stated the case quite well.  The only feathers to be ruffled by your post in my mind would be someone reading it who works for UPS or FEDEX.

We live on a development road with a 25 MPH limit.  How many of those delivery trucks do you think are even close to honoring that?   

My son and I have been discussing this of late and we are under the impression that at least is the case of UPS drivers, that their work day is defined by the time it takes them to empty their truck not by the hour.  If so that might help explain why so many mistakes are made and mishaps occur.  Please weigh in if you know how it all works.

Dear uberwaltz and crazyeddy ........"I Love You Man"!

hifijones and kqvkq9.... not so much... lol

@hifiman5 .
Even though I refuse to ship UPS, I still get a lot of delivery from them and our driver is a very nice chap indeed, too nice imho for the job he is obviously suffering with.
Just last week he told me that their day is only done when every parcel is delivered( if possible) and pickup made. Does not matter if this takes 5 or 12 hours.
Now obviously they know their route and the areas and a quick look at his delivery manifest will tell him whether its a casual day or a bat out of hell day.
Therein lies part of your answer I believe.

Builder3 responds to my earlier post...".Anyone that goes on about the billions and billions, etc, that the post office gets isn’t knowledgeable enough to even have a discussion with. They go billions in the hole every year. If they were in fact, a "business", like kqvkq9 suggested, they lights would’ve been turned off a couple of decades ago. Spin, by your logic, you apparently should be able to also get car insurance or homeowner’s insurance the same way? One flat fee, like buying a cheese sandwich? Don’t be ridiculous.The ironic part always is how quickly someone like you would understand fully and completely, were the shoe on the other foot.".......Dear Builder3, You seem to know a bit about the financial woes of the USPS so tell me, according to kqvkq9, the retired postmaster who says that they deliver billions and billions of 50 cent packages which of course equals billions and billions and billions of dollars, how do they manage to do such a fantastic job and yet end up, as you stated, billions of dollars in the RED every single stinkin' year?! On the surface that would seem preposterous at best!  Thank you for your time and consideration.

Builder3....BTW, I was not trying to compare a cheese sandwich to any type of insurance such as home, auto, boat, motorcycle or mustaches.
My point all along has simply been......are you ready?........here goes......drum roll please!...... WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ANY GOSH DARN INSURANCE PERIOD!....Sorry for shouting but sometimes a man's got to do what he's got to do. I believe that was either Jimmy Hoffa or Yosemite Sam that said that. I forget which.

Well, I suppose I should respond. Everyone always knows how to do your job better than you do. Anyone who has ever worked a job knows that.

Firstly-spin4cards, the Post office is a business saddled with a Congress mandated retirement system that requires pre-funding of retirees 75 years in advance. That's right, those not yet born are required to be funded. There is no other business in the world with such a requirement. That's simply a matter of record.  It's easy enough to verify that. Please take the time to do so. Why such an absurd pre-funding requirement? Ask your people in Congress. That's why the yearly tally sheets look the way they do. Yes, preposterous but not for the reason that you surmise.

Now, I'm reluctant to go into Postal business here, not only because I'm retired and not able to speak on behalf of the firm any longer, but because it's so terribly boring. Since I retired I've been trying to leave all that behind.

As I understand the premise advanced by spin4cards, everything mailed should automatically carry insurance commensurate with the value of the item sent. Supposedly, that would be for UPS, FedEx, what have you but let's confine the discussion to the Post Office.

Premium services such as Priority, Express, COD, and such all do include insurance, and Insurance is the correct term, for a specified amount depending on type of service used. Should all of them have included insurance automatically covering whatever is inside the box?


How about goldfish marked this side up? "It's marked this side up, can't your people read?" How about expensive jewelry? "What do you mean I won't be covered for the full amount if I don't buy extra coverage?"What about a motorcycle frame, no box, just tags with the postage tied on?What about a full size collectors print with a glass overlay like the Mona Lisa with glass ready to shatter and destroy the item? What about Human Remains? What about a bomb?

Those aren't examples drawn from a book. I've encountered all of those. I had a customer that collected ceramic cookie jars. Every week she would get a couple of them. Half had no packing and were cracked. She would try to file claims. Then there was the guy that sent me the Hammond Organ amp that I bought on eBay. 50 pounds and he just threw it in a box. No packing at all. The amp was fine but the box was lacerated from the sharp edges so the parcels around that package were damaged.

Then there was the company in Maine that deals in Maple Syrup. They can fit two gallon jugs of the stuff in a big Priority box just fine. No room for packing though. That means that when a gallon jug breaks, all the other parcels in the hamper get soaked in maple syrup.

Then there was the time that I had to call the local bank to come and pick up all the statements that they had mailed. Some guy had boxed a bottle of red wine, no packing, and dumped it in the parcel drop. Of course the bottle broke. Red wine on everything.

Those are just a few anecdotes. I get nostalgic. Still, should all of those parcels have carried automatic insurance to the value of the contents?Should an old pillow be mailed at a higher rate because the mailer of the jewelry does not want to pay for the insurance to cover the specific value of what she was mailing? Should postage for all rise to cover those few that mail high value items and don't want to bear the burden of shouldering the responsibility for their own actions? Should people that don't need or want insurance pay a higher freight to cover others that should but don't want to?


Let's look a little deeper. The original complaint was regarding not services that already carry some insurance, it was about items at minimal postage rate. We're talking first class letter rate. There has never been insurance on first class letter rate or first class small parcel rate. No country in the world does that unless you add optional extra services. Go to the internet, find the Universal Postal Union in Bern Switzerland. Have a look. Every country is there. The UPU governs all that. Try to find one that offers free insurance for letter rate. Be my guest.

Let's not stop there though, where indeed does this stop? First class letters and first class parcels are one thing, do we then carry the idea to cover newspapers, magazines, Dollar Shave Club? See where this goes?


Now it has been stated that when one mails something, a contract is established between the mailer and the company selling the product. Effectively true but, every contract is spelled out in specific verbiage of some sort. The mailing contract is right on the website, on the placards on the walls, and so forth. While one may by imputation think that there should be insurance included in mailings at a basic rate, such has never been the case. Honestly, if I ran a card shop and mailed a Honus Wagner card or a mint rookie Mickey Mantle and didn't ask for insurance commensurate with the value of the item that I was mailing, I would be considered rather foolish, wouldn't I?

Let's forget about corner card shops for the moment and consider how the professionals look at this. The largest single mailer that uses the Post Office is Amazon. Amazon uses a form of bulk business mail. That's a bargain basement rate. Why do they do that? Well, it carries no insurance but it's cost effective. The loss they realize because of uninsured packages either being damaged or lost is trivial compared to the money that they would spend if they had a rate that included a factored in insurance. Don't think for a moment that they haven't considered it both ways and come to a conclusion as to which is the superior method for their business model.
Jeff Bezos is worth about 150 billion.

Get the picture?

Remember, in no fashion do I speak for the Post Office. I'm retired. I'm just a guy now. Spin4cards asked me a question and didn't like my answer. Well that kinda too bad. I don't set the rates. If you've got a problem with how things have been done since 1775 or so, please contact the Postmaster General, Washington D.C. 20265.

Over and out.

BTW, I asked for a response from Builder3 not you. Oh well maybe we'll still hear from Builder3. The good news is that you signed off on your last post by saying...."Over And Out".  Boy was that music to my ears.

Wow ... kqvkq9 actually takes the time to make a very informed, lengthy and relevant post and spin4cards calls him names and hurls uncalled for insults.

1. I hope the moderator does take out the trash (spin4cards)

2. If the moderator doesn’t take down spin4cards miserable post, ask yourself.... if this is how he treats other Audiogon members via the Forum,  why would you ever buy anything from this guy?

I second naperaudio request.  Moderator, take out the trash (spin4cards).  Just read his post from 11:04 7-29.  Quite obviously horrible. 

Hey fleschler,

We don't operate here by Parliamentary Procedure. 
Go make yourself some popcorn and listen to a Tony Orlando record.

Moderator - spin4cards is going "postal" on this thread.

This naperaudio guy has got some issues eh?

"This naperaudio guy has got some issues eh?"

And I always thought that I was the "King of Sarcasm"  

spin4cards-
Please see my previous post regarding the Mark Twain book.By the way, I loved to play basketball. I played center...
Moderator, please do your unseemly task with our little friend.I think he could use a time out.

Naperaudio and Fleschler,
Thank you for your support. After years of dealing with the public I developed both a thick skin and head. Most I dealt with, 98% or something were fine people. There was always a certain element of madness out there though. Some were only rude. A few were really in need of help.
That's just life in the big city. It has its charms.

I need to state here that even though I found one of spin4cards points to be of some relevance I cannot condone his actions or attitude here at all.
Please read and digest this thread for some guidelines...

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/polite-rules-for-discussing-audio-related-things