insurance and shipping with UPS
Finally after a little more than 2 months, FedEx has relented and wil pay me less than half of the value of my shipment. Many phone calls and utter disappointment, and after me mentioning going to court, they “gave in”. I’m out about $1000, but it’s better than nothing. I will use USPS exclusively now, but that’s ok, as my location is better suited to that service. I wish the best for anyone shipping with any carrier. Cheers |
I’m with heardetal: don’t trust FedEx either, nightmare for me. In a nutshell, I personally handed over my package to the FedEx driver (after insisting 3 times to do so) as we were both parked in front of the FedEx store in Portland OR. That was the last time I saw that Primare CD32.. or for that matter, anyone, as he failed to scan it and subsequent failures to scan it anywhere else. FedEx denied my claim, as they stated: “FedEx had no proof of acceptance”... Been fighting for about 2 months, to no avail. it was a nice player sold and then refunded, I’m out, FedEx (or someone) had won....Never will I use FedEx for shipping or receiving again... Cheers |
LTL shipping can be a nightmare in itself! A stereo shop in Florida thought they would do me a favor when I bought a set of B&W subwoofers, They put the subs in a large box with a minimum of packing. They obviously thought that the subs would enjoy a nice safe ride without bouncing or other interference. WRONG! They arrived butchered. The freight company offered 19 cent per pound for damage. I was screwed. Joe |
It seems that all carriers have tightened their purse strings these days. I think it's necessary to well over pack all fragile items. I sent out a JVC video projector this year. I think the overall size of the box was three times larger than the projector. The bigger the box, the less likely it can be tossed around. Here's a funny story from about 1994 when even trucking companies were liberal with damage claims. I received a pair of Snell Type B minors from a private seller. The box of one speaker was torn by a fork lift. The speaker was marred on one side. I called the truckers claim dept. I suggested that they simply refund the shipping amount in part anyway. ($50.00 would have suited me)The guy said "Nah, we don't work like that!!" "You get me an estimate to fix them". I called Snell. They said "You would need to relaminate both speakers to do it right. $1600.00!" I told this to the trucker. I'll never forgot his response " I'm not authorized to send you more than $800.00" I got the check a week later! Joe |
Why the big pension liability only for the USPS? If general speculation is correct, it's because of a drive to privatize the company. Needless to say, if that large a company was forced to privatize, there would be a lot of money to be made by someone that inherited/acquired the business. I'm no conspiracy type guy. Even so, it's hard to not consider that partly because of the parties involved in the legislation and because of the very large sums of money to be made. Money is a big motivator. That's why. Hopefully, this will be my last post ever regarding my old job. Say Hallelujah. |
kq, I appreciate the response, and the info. I assume the pension funding requirement is a Federal thing? It should be more widespread, there are far too many examples of that same funding need just being ignored entirely in gov't. Kick the can down the road. I've no real inside information, but I assume that's what has driven the mail-carrier/subcontractor change? We used to have stupendous carriers, tremendously efficient and professional, both. Now, a complete 180. Enough about that, I guess. Take care |
Builder3- The issue with the USPS pensions is that they are required by Government mandate to pre-fund 75 years of projected retirements in ten years. No other companies have that requirement. Certainly not tons of them. None of them. That's obviously relevant to the balance sheet dilemma The USPS does have issues that could and should be corrected internally. Believe me, I tried when I worked there. The larger the company the more resistant to change the company becomes. That's an over-generalization to be sure but it applies not only to the Post Office, a huge organization, but even more so to the government in general. Yes, you're completely right about the government. Will Rogers covered the topic extensively. Many things have changed. Unfortunately, many have not. Those in power tend to become little kings protecting their kingdoms and interest to the detriment of those that live under their jurisdiction. There's nothing new about that. Roman Senators spring to mind as an example. The enlightened few that fall outside of the norm there are altogether too rare. So yes, I think you're right that we agree more than not. That pension deal though... |
kqvkq951 posts07-30-2018 11:15pmBuilder3-- kq, read it all, not sure where we differ. Pensions, etc, are an expense. Period. Tons of major companies have the same expenses, and pay them. The USPS lobbied the Feds for all they were worth to become a separate entity, and have fallen on their face, not surprisingly. And lest you think otherwise, I've got no ax to grind with the post office, generally. I do with the government, when they start pretending that they can manage to operate like the private sector, however. There's no fiscal responsibility, never has been. |
czarivey, Trust me, I have no illusions of perfection with my former employer. I dealt with aggressive mis-management at many levels for years. Policies that say one thing and actions that say another. Vehicles that passed their estimated lifespan well over a decade ago still limping along. I could go on, really I could, for a very long time. I don't miss it at all. While you're absolutely correct about the lack of perfection, the firm really didn't take tax dollars. They couldn't. Federal mandate and all that. Yes, their own documents will portray perfection when made for rally the troops purposes as shown. For what it's worth, those are true statements on the document, they just neglect the downsides. The Office of the Inspector General documents however are frequently scathing. Their internal reviews are feared because they tell it like it is. You get the good and the bad. The OIG has a good corps of analysts and comes up with not only succinct reviews but creative suggestions that are usually not implemented. I didn't compare the Post Office to UPS in any regard. With that in mind, a Post Office without flaws is a Utopia that I've never seen. If only... |
I feel your pain, but with FedEx.. Basically I handed my package to a FedEx driver right in front of the store (after 3 times of declaring “I’ll would take care of it” after I asked are you sure 3 times) as he was loading his truck for the last dispatch of the day. That was the last I saw it, for that matter, the last time anyone saw it. Filed my claim for loss, denied. As FedEx stated there is no proof of FedEx receiving the package, only shows label created. He didn’t scan it, or anyone else. It was a nice CD player from Primare. So, the fight continues...if anyone has any suggestions, please feel free to respond. Cheers. |
Builder3-- Unfortunately, you're completely wrong. That's hard to understand when you can just, as you suggest, Google it. The Post Office hasn't taken ANY taxpayer money since 1970. That's when the Postal Reorganization Act went through. Please take your own advice and Google it. Check the Federal Times if you like. Anyone can make a mistake but now you've doubled down on something that's simply not true. Please, do your homework. |
Also, btw, they will not talk any numbers with anyone except for the sender. The only way around this is to have the sender send them a letter stating they transfer all communication to the receiver. UPS doesn’t even have a form letter for you to use. You have to write it up yourself and send in the mail or fax to a PO Box in Newport News, VA. They do absolutely everything to make the process as difficult as possible. |
spin4cards23 posts07-29-2018 7:22pm.......Dear Builder3, You seem to know a bit about the financial woes of the USPS so tell me, according to kqvkq9, the retired postmaster who says that they deliver billions and billions of 50 cent packages which of course equals billions and billions and billions of dollars, how do they manage to do such a fantastic job and yet end up, as you stated, billions of dollars in the RED every single stinkin’ year?! On the surface that would seem preposterous at best! Thank you for your time and consideration. Their expenses are greater than their revenues. Have been for years. Google it, if you don’t believe me. Bailed out every year, billions and billions, by the taxpayers. They lost nearly $16 billion in 2012. If you were at the helm, with free unlimited parcel insurance for all, I’m sure you’d be able to double that, though. |
I am almost 3 months in on a claim with UPS. I shipped a pair of Apogee Acoustics Duetta Singnature Series II speakers in original heavy duty boxes with a very heavy duty 2x4 enclosure. They dropped one of the speakers and also clearly ripped 2x4s off of both enclosure with a forklift (large puncture hole on the bottom of one of the boxes that is clearly from a forklift). As a result, the bass panel shifted in the shell causing a low frequency rattle (mounts can’t be accessed without destroying the panel; therefore they have to be replaced with the panel used in the Apogee Duetta Ultimate. Right out of the gate their policy is clearly to tell you, regardless, that you didn’t pack your shipment with proper packing material and the burst rate of the box isn’t sufficient. Needless to say I kept hammering them with evidence and logic and got past their deny-deny-deny and then deny some more tactics. They also don’t follow-up ever as they promise and pretend over and over again the 7 pictures they want, for example, weren't received. It took forever, but I’m now at the step where they pay me out. The jist of it is to not let up and hold them accountable. Eventually you’ll make progress. Whether I actually get the full $4k is still to be determined (which still won’t cover my full cost to have both bass panels replaced by True Sound Audio Works). If in the end they don’t do what is right (and you can prove it) tell them you will take them to small claims court and see if they budge. If not, force their hand with a judge. |
The beat goes on. I recently posted that my UPS claim had been resolved with respect to my Levinson. The franchise manager said that corporate had mailed them a check and they were waiting to receive the check in order to pay me. None of this is true. UPS corporate called my poor buyer and requested even more photos than the ones he had already provided. They wanted him to take the amplifier apart and take additional photos of the interior. He responded that he did not have the tools and did not want to cause additional damage to the amplifier. Why they are even conversing with the buyer is beyond me. I'm the claimant and I've already reimbursed the buyer. Shortly thereafter, UPS responded that they wanted to pick up the amplifier. I told the buyer that under no circumstances allow them to pick up the amplifier. If they wanted additional photos, let their claim’s adjuster come back once again and take more photos. Of course I notified the franchise owner that the store manager had been telling me for over a week that the 'check was in the mail' and that corporate had no idea that any claim had ever been resolved. My wife, as I previously stated is an attorney, e-mailed Mr. Franchise Owner to notify him that he was, in addition to damages, also responsible for the actions of his employees. As I write this, my wife just received an e-mail from Franchise Owner asking for my phone number, saying there were things he wanted to talk about regarding UPS that he couldn't mention in an e-mail. Of course my wife refused, replying that a paper trail was necessary for any correspondence. This is probably far from over and unfortunately I'm forced to file a suit this week in small claim's court. I also wanted to mention that until recently, I was using Chubb for my homeowner's policy and had two somewhat similar issues for substantially more money than the Levinson. Within a week a received both checks, no questions asked. One was for a gold Rolex, which was stolen during shipping, and I was reimbursed full replacement value. |
dmid, Insurance not working anymore. UPS pay rate per claim is microscopic compared to the number of claims submitted. What they do most frequently is opening claim on your behalf and closing with no pay without you even knowing that. Insurance is just another several bucks you're just going to loose without any possible return. The best way to deal with UPS is alternate companies. |
I need to state here that even though I found one of spin4cards points to be of some relevance I cannot condone his actions or attitude here at all. Please read and digest this thread for some guidelines... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/polite-rules-for-discussing-audio-related-things |
Naperaudio and Fleschler, Thank you for your support. After years of dealing with the public I developed both a thick skin and head. Most I dealt with, 98% or something were fine people. There was always a certain element of madness out there though. Some were only rude. A few were really in need of help. That's just life in the big city. It has its charms. |
| Post removed |
Wow ... kqvkq9 actually takes the time to make a very informed, lengthy and relevant post and spin4cards calls him names and hurls uncalled for insults. 1. I hope the moderator does take out the trash (spin4cards) 2. If the moderator doesn’t take down spin4cards miserable post, ask yourself.... if this is how he treats other Audiogon members via the Forum, why would you ever buy anything from this guy? |
| Post removed |
Well, I suppose I should respond. Everyone always knows how to do your job better than you do. Anyone who has ever worked a job knows that. Firstly-spin4cards, the Post office is a business saddled with a Congress mandated retirement system that requires pre-funding of retirees 75 years in advance. That's right, those not yet born are required to be funded. There is no other business in the world with such a requirement. That's simply a matter of record. It's easy enough to verify that. Please take the time to do so. Why such an absurd pre-funding requirement? Ask your people in Congress. That's why the yearly tally sheets look the way they do. Yes, preposterous but not for the reason that you surmise. Now, I'm reluctant to go into Postal business here, not only because I'm retired and not able to speak on behalf of the firm any longer, but because it's so terribly boring. Since I retired I've been trying to leave all that behind. As I understand the premise advanced by spin4cards, everything mailed should automatically carry insurance commensurate with the value of the item sent. Supposedly, that would be for UPS, FedEx, what have you but let's confine the discussion to the Post Office. Premium services such as Priority, Express, COD, and such all do include insurance, and Insurance is the correct term, for a specified amount depending on type of service used. Should all of them have included insurance automatically covering whatever is inside the box? How about goldfish marked this side up? "It's marked this side up, can't your people read?" How about expensive jewelry? "What do you mean I won't be covered for the full amount if I don't buy extra coverage?"What about a motorcycle frame, no box, just tags with the postage tied on?What about a full size collectors print with a glass overlay like the Mona Lisa with glass ready to shatter and destroy the item? What about Human Remains? What about a bomb? Those aren't examples drawn from a book. I've encountered all of those. I had a customer that collected ceramic cookie jars. Every week she would get a couple of them. Half had no packing and were cracked. She would try to file claims. Then there was the guy that sent me the Hammond Organ amp that I bought on eBay. 50 pounds and he just threw it in a box. No packing at all. The amp was fine but the box was lacerated from the sharp edges so the parcels around that package were damaged. Then there was the company in Maine that deals in Maple Syrup. They can fit two gallon jugs of the stuff in a big Priority box just fine. No room for packing though. That means that when a gallon jug breaks, all the other parcels in the hamper get soaked in maple syrup. Then there was the time that I had to call the local bank to come and pick up all the statements that they had mailed. Some guy had boxed a bottle of red wine, no packing, and dumped it in the parcel drop. Of course the bottle broke. Red wine on everything. Those are just a few anecdotes. I get nostalgic. Still, should all of those parcels have carried automatic insurance to the value of the contents?Should an old pillow be mailed at a higher rate because the mailer of the jewelry does not want to pay for the insurance to cover the specific value of what she was mailing? Should postage for all rise to cover those few that mail high value items and don't want to bear the burden of shouldering the responsibility for their own actions? Should people that don't need or want insurance pay a higher freight to cover others that should but don't want to? Let's look a little deeper. The original complaint was regarding not services that already carry some insurance, it was about items at minimal postage rate. We're talking first class letter rate. There has never been insurance on first class letter rate or first class small parcel rate. No country in the world does that unless you add optional extra services. Go to the internet, find the Universal Postal Union in Bern Switzerland. Have a look. Every country is there. The UPU governs all that. Try to find one that offers free insurance for letter rate. Be my guest. Let's not stop there though, where indeed does this stop? First class letters and first class parcels are one thing, do we then carry the idea to cover newspapers, magazines, Dollar Shave Club? See where this goes? Now it has been stated that when one mails something, a contract is established between the mailer and the company selling the product. Effectively true but, every contract is spelled out in specific verbiage of some sort. The mailing contract is right on the website, on the placards on the walls, and so forth. While one may by imputation think that there should be insurance included in mailings at a basic rate, such has never been the case. Honestly, if I ran a card shop and mailed a Honus Wagner card or a mint rookie Mickey Mantle and didn't ask for insurance commensurate with the value of the item that I was mailing, I would be considered rather foolish, wouldn't I? Let's forget about corner card shops for the moment and consider how the professionals look at this. The largest single mailer that uses the Post Office is Amazon. Amazon uses a form of bulk business mail. That's a bargain basement rate. Why do they do that? Well, it carries no insurance but it's cost effective. The loss they realize because of uninsured packages either being damaged or lost is trivial compared to the money that they would spend if they had a rate that included a factored in insurance. Don't think for a moment that they haven't considered it both ways and come to a conclusion as to which is the superior method for their business model. Jeff Bezos is worth about 150 billion. Get the picture? Remember, in no fashion do I speak for the Post Office. I'm retired. I'm just a guy now. Spin4cards asked me a question and didn't like my answer. Well that kinda too bad. I don't set the rates. If you've got a problem with how things have been done since 1775 or so, please contact the Postmaster General, Washington D.C. 20265. Over and out. |
Builder3....BTW, I was not trying to compare a cheese sandwich to any type of insurance such as home, auto, boat, motorcycle or mustaches. My point all along has simply been......are you ready?........here goes......drum roll please!...... WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ANY GOSH DARN INSURANCE PERIOD!....Sorry for shouting but sometimes a man's got to do what he's got to do. I believe that was either Jimmy Hoffa or Yosemite Sam that said that. I forget which. |
Builder3 responds to my earlier post...".Anyone that goes on about the billions and billions, etc, that the post office gets isn’t knowledgeable enough to even have a discussion with. They go billions in the hole every year. If they were in fact, a "business", like kqvkq9 suggested, they lights would’ve been turned off a couple of decades ago. Spin, by your logic, you apparently should be able to also get car insurance or homeowner’s insurance the same way? One flat fee, like buying a cheese sandwich? Don’t be ridiculous.The ironic part always is how quickly someone like you would understand fully and completely, were the shoe on the other foot.".......Dear Builder3, You seem to know a bit about the financial woes of the USPS so tell me, according to kqvkq9, the retired postmaster who says that they deliver billions and billions of 50 cent packages which of course equals billions and billions and billions of dollars, how do they manage to do such a fantastic job and yet end up, as you stated, billions of dollars in the RED every single stinkin' year?! On the surface that would seem preposterous at best! Thank you for your time and consideration. |
@hifiman5 . Even though I refuse to ship UPS, I still get a lot of delivery from them and our driver is a very nice chap indeed, too nice imho for the job he is obviously suffering with. Just last week he told me that their day is only done when every parcel is delivered( if possible) and pickup made. Does not matter if this takes 5 or 12 hours. Now obviously they know their route and the areas and a quick look at his delivery manifest will tell him whether its a casual day or a bat out of hell day. Therein lies part of your answer I believe. |
@uberwaltz +1 I think you stated the case quite well. The only feathers to be ruffled by your post in my mind would be someone reading it who works for UPS or FEDEX. We live on a development road with a 25 MPH limit. How many of those delivery trucks do you think are even close to honoring that? My son and I have been discussing this of late and we are under the impression that at least is the case of UPS drivers, that their work day is defined by the time it takes them to empty their truck not by the hour. If so that might help explain why so many mistakes are made and mishaps occur. Please weigh in if you know how it all works. |
For the last 20 years of shipping delicate heavy items (furniture and audio equipment), I rely on FedEx and never use UPS in California (from or to). UPS has a bad reputation in this state while FedEx hasn't caused problems for me (yet?). UPS does deliver quickly within the state for items that are not heavy or not fragile (such as cases of grade juice in small cans, tightly wrapped and double boxed). I've sent a McIntosh MX110 to Israel 20 years ago without damage and it was only double boxed with lots of bubble wrap around the preamp. I would have used stiff styrofoam instead today. |
I have to admit to thinking along the same lines. When you ship ANY item with ANY carrier you are entering into a 2 way contract. You pay them for a service, which is to deliver your goods in a timely manner and undamaged. The idea that you should have to pay extra ( over what they just quoted you for said service) to insure this happens is nonsense in reality. You have agreed a service between two parties, your end is packing it really well yourself and paying the carrier, their end is delivering it to the correct address undamaged. Really boils down to that. Now if you knowingly make a crabby job of packing well you know who to blame, look in the mirror. If you made a great job and all sellers with any integrity really should and it gets there damaged then that’s on the carrier. Yes there should be an agreed value for liability and yes this may make your shipping cost more but to call it insurance is incorrect. And once you have agreed that value and paid extra that should be it. Not " we will give you 75% of value", that is absurd! And yes I realise this may incense some here and ruffle some feathers...oh well. |
Hope I'm not adding fuel to the fire here, but I do see (in a way) @spin4cards reasoning. and I'll explain why. There seems to be an environment of un-accountability in today's society of commerce. We can pay for a service up front, but after cash is in hand, and if things go south, well, now it's our problem, not theirs. I understand that sometimes things do go wrong, and a premium for insurance is an obvious given. That being said though, even after all due diligence and insurance premiums have been accounted for, my experience is that they still try to weasel out of their responsibility. If I ran my business in such a fashion, well, I would be out of business. Not trying to "kick the beehive" here, but I think I know what he's getting at. |
The other point I missed is the huge misunderstanding e-bay sellers have with e-bay’s policy of “no-returns”. That means exactly what is says, returns, not refund. When a seller selects no returns on their profile it means they really don’t want the item sent back to them. It does not mean they are exonerated from owning the quality of packaging towards insuring the package arrives safely or accurate listings. Most sellers don’t understand this, and some try to stand behind “no returns” as meaning no refunds regardless of the reasons or events. In the end, e-bay will stand behind 99% of buyers if the buyer provides proof of damage or proof the item was not as described. The sellers can say in the listing they will not pay for shipping return costs. If they do, the buyer must pay the return shipping. E-bay will work hard to make the buyer return the item to the seller before they will back you with their refund guarantee. In most cases the seller cooperates and pays for the return, but if they don’t and the buyer has to pay the return, e-bay will still reimburse you the shipping cost back with their guarantee IF you have proof of damage or proof of misrepresentation of the item listing. I find most sellers feel terrible if the package is damaged, but not all and I’ve had to ask for e-bays’ help on some of these when the seller got angry or would not respond. Its pretty easy to tell if a package was properly packaged once you open it up and see the care or carelessness of the inside materials and how secure it was made. Its impossible to predict how badly it will be handled, so all precautions must be taken to package it to literally be dropped 6 ft. For the record, when I go the other way I literally build a clam shell for the amp out of a dissected styrofoam cooler, much like the factory OEM clamshells that electronics are shipped in from the factories, and double box, add corrugated, bridge the knobs, tape 100% of the bubble wrap, and tape 100% of the inside and outside box. I’ve never had an amp damaged going the other way doing these things. Never say never, but so far so good. |
This is my favorite unhappy subject. During the last 6 months I purchased 8 power vintage amplifiers on e-bay ranging from 30 to 77 lbs. Of those 8, 3 were severely damaged during shipment. When I purchase a power amp I make sure to message the seller that I’ve had issues with large heavy amps not being packaged properly. I do this before I bid and give em a little time to react. I’m kind in my message but I am on a mission to protect that amp and educate the seller regarding proven shipping methods. At least half of the sellers swore they do a super packaging job. Be it UPS or USPS or Fed Ex, its the luck of the draw who handles it at any particular transition point. From Norwegian hammer throws to setting down a newborn baby, its going to get the full treatment. I respectfully ask the seller to double box it, including doubling the corner walls with extra corrugated, and wrapping the unit itself in bubble wrap and then tightly taping it 100%. I also ask them to put braces between the knobs (such as styrofoam, not bubble wrap for the braces between) that will absorb the internal forces against the faceplate vs. the knobs bearing the thrust of shocks. I had one arrive where it was double boxed but the seller did such a lousy job of securing it inside the first box that it rambled around like a bowling ball and destroyed half the knobs, they were bent into their pockets. The outside of the box had no holes or dents. I carefully also take pictures of the box when it arrives and as I’m unpacking it to show the seller, and more often and more important, e-bay, so I can document the damage and compare it to the listing pictures for a refund if the seller gets crabby about refunding. E-bay has been very good when providing detailed photographic evidence. Its just such a shame, waiting for that prize to arrive and its been molested due to bad packaging. And it takes time. What I do now is I offer to pay extra packaging fees (usually offer $25) if they do exactly what I ask them to do, and I make sure to say it in a way as to not offend. Double box is simply to give it a puncture zone so it does not penetrate the inside box. It must have extra corrugated slid between the boxes as well. A 77 lb amp with sharp corners is not going to survive even double packaging unless it is absolutely snug inside the first box and that box is snug inside the 2’nd box, and its been made nearly bulletproof. I’ve driven 250 miles to pick up big amps. Its worth it when the amp is exactly what I’m looking for and appears pristine. I must also add that some of the sellers have been more than happy to go nuts on fulfilling my request, especially if I offer to pay for the extra packaging. These have all arrived safety, some were beat up outside, but not inside. That brings a smile to my face. Tape, tape tape. Ebay should make a video on how to package such heavy sharp animals. |
All I said was.... I paid you your fee (USPS) to deliver a package. You (USPS) insure it. Not me. For saying simply that, you have clowns like hifijones jumping in claiming that I live in a "parallel universe" and that I should cancel my effen car insurance! Those are ignorant, condescending smart-ass remarks. Then, when I put them in their place with my next post, my post gets removed but their condescending BS post towards me remains. BTW, if I am not knowledgeable enough to even have a discussion with, why did you bother to post this message as if I would not see it? That was a rhetorical question. |
spin4cards11 posts07-28-2018 7:46am In response to Builder3’s post...I’m still not buying it... I paid you (USPS, FedEx etc.) to do your job which is simply to deliver a package. If you can’t deliver it safely and in a timely fashion then you need to do something about it. That "Something About It" would not be to make billions of dollars by charging the customer in case you screw up. Very convenient arrangement wouldn’t you say? Anyone that goes on about the billions and billions, etc, that the post office gets isn’t knowledgeable enough to even have a discussion with. They go billions in the hole every year. If they were in fact, a "business", like kqvkq9 suggested, they lights would’ve been turned off a couple of decades ago. Spin, by your logic, you apparently should be able to also get car insurance or homeowner’s insurance the same way? One flat fee, like buying a cheese sandwich? Don’t be ridiculous.The ironic part always is how quickly someone like you would understand fully and completely, were the shoe on the other foot. |
