I think some cables are just a little too expensive.
A while back a shop I did business with carried Transparent Audio Cables. They were so expensive it was obscene. They did sound good, but you had to move up from the bottom to the more idiotically pricey models to start to feel the magic. It had been several years ago and I wanted to check in on my old friends at Transparent Audio. This is their top of the line speaker cable. Now if you don't have a problem with this whole cable thing, this might push you over the edge. I can't imagine a speaker that would need such a cable. Wilson? Rockport? What amp? You can buy a nice luxury vehicle for the same price as a pair of speaker cables? Nelson Pass would be embarrassed to see these monstrosities on one of his amplifiers.
I have a good friend who just bought a $45K preamp. He told me with tax and all it came to just shy of $50K. Interestingly, this friend also told me that there is no way in the world that this preamp should cost anything like what he paid...no way, no how! Why, because the parts, the casing, the marketing, the research and expertise needed to manufacture this product do not add up to anything more than a mere fraction of what he paid. What added tremendous expense were the following..1) massive margin, 2) several middle men involved in the sales and 3) limited quantity sold. None of these things, according to my friend, justified in his mind what he had to pay to acquire the preamp. Now you may ask why did my friend acquire this piece? A good question, but given that he probably makes weekly what the preamp costs, i guess he decided it was an expensive but justifiable expenditure! It seems there are quite a few folks in this hobby like my friend, and there are manufacturer’s who are looking for those folk to sell their wares to...at almost any price.
Bob Ludwig found value in these for his mixing room. I was fortunate enough to get a demo of those beautiful Eggletsonworks masterpieces, the Ive Signature SE. I have no idea what cables were used but Bob felt they offered a significant improvement for him. I used to listen to Dave Ramsay a lot when traveling for work. He would often talk about one of his billionaire friends. He said the guy bought a $300,000 car and that it was like a regular guy buying a biscuit. I did the math and it's true. I don't think Bob is a billionaire but sound is his life so I can see spending 100s of 1000s of $$ to make my passion, my hobby, my livelihood better.
One thing most audio people fail to realize or value is that cables should maximize or almost ’perfect’ - all of the components in a system. One analogy is that non-audio people just don’t "get it" (the beauty and satisfaction most of us enjoy with high end music reproduction). Non-audiophiles just shake or scratch their head about the cost of a system of more than, say $1,000 (their idea of high priced). Similarly, many audio folks don’t "get it" regarding the price/value of cables that can maximize achievement of that goal. Those audiophiles just shake or scratch their head about the total cost of cables in a system of more than, say $1-5,000+ (THEIR idea of high priced cables). Imperfect analogies but you get the idea.
More like the power of ignorance. People spouting about communism and socialism and several other things... So much wrong not only about those things and the countries that didn't even practice them (USSR / Russia, China, etc.) anywhere near what the ideas where, however flawed.
The problem with discussing politics is most people have no idea what they are talking about. They parrot misinformation they heard from equally ignorant sources or worse, the lies and propaganda from the many exploitative manipulators who direct them like puppets.
In so far as Capitalism being the ultimate solution, believers are in the above category of ignorants, thinking they to will one day be rich. It's possible but very unlikely. The path to, and achievement of wealth as practiced in our world creates much misery, poisons the environment as well as societies, and stokes the flames of war.
Everything has it's problems. Aspects of Capitalism can produce positive outcomes, just as socialism can. Balance is the key to a bright future for all. Humans are short-sighted, naturally selfish, and easily misled though. We still have much evolving to do.
On topic, $65k is crazy for cables. My opinion sure, but there's a saying, "A fool and his money are soon parted", and it is as true as ever.
@mikelavigne Thanks for your input. I notice that even the smaller MM3s weigh 1300 lbs and retail for $80,000. They are three part speakers so they would be easier to handle. I was hoping to purchase the VS VR9SE Mk2 for $35,000. I read a review that indicated that the MM3s are 93db efficient, 7 ohm nominal +/- 2db making them easy to drive like the VR9. I want to use 125 w. monoblock tube amps which have huge power supplies. I can't do that with the Ultra 55s per VS (they require a minimum of 200 watts). It's possible someone could sell the MM3s heavily discounted. I presume that the MM3 Exacts are quite a bit more expensive. The other problem with the VR9 and MM3 is finding exactly the right spot for them as they are so heavy assembled (I'm sure your MM7s took forever to find the right spot).
I had to grab my NUTS on some of this and say WHY DO things breed?
Things that won't take care of THEMSELVES DON'T live.
Only humans do and expect ME, or anyone else, to feed, cloth, and pay for someone else's existence with my money.
I suppose you agree with I took it, from him/her. I didn't steal it, too.
Sick thinkin' in my America... I don't care WHO has money, as long as they didn't steal it to get, and are entitled to it. No one is ENTITLED to mine, EVER... Charity is there for a reason.. DO YOU GIVE time and money, to the needy. To the needy, I do. THE friggin' bums NO way...
BACK to what I CAN BUY now...With MY HARD EARNED money from multi billionaires. Thank you...
Hi Douglas, I agree with your comments about the pros and cons of more vs. less drivers. Both types have their charms. I also sadly agree with your comments about cables. While there are low cost cables that are not bad, like Kimber 8tc; as I have gone to the lower-middle grade that I can afford, there is a big difference. I know that applies for the much less affordable upper regions.
Expensive cables are no more a waste than expensive analogue.
If you don't think so, prove it. Go ahead, use the data, the objective criteria you say is missing with cables. Show me. Go get the graphs that demonstrate the better plinth, motor, arm, cartridge actually makes better sound.
Legacy Audio's upper models also feature more bass/mid driver surface area. That is one of Bill Dudleston's hallmarks of design.
I concur on the benefit of such designs, but it should be understood that by necessity the multiplicity of drivers, while yielding the ease and what I would term "presence," does not create the precise same coherence and precision that some prefer in a simpler (i.e. less drivers) design. It is possible to get a more tight (Some would consider that to be more accurate, which is quite subjective) sound from a simpler design. I enjoy both and can hear advantages to both. Legacy Audio's Valor employs a huge concentric driver, which brings several of these advantages together. BTW, in the top three models there are drivers not immediately evident, but contribute to the higher amount of driver surface area of the bass and midrange.
On the other end of the spectrum, a speaker such as the Kingsound King III electrostatic has the enveloping, spatially grand character of the big dynamic speakers, but without the attributes of the dynamic drivers. The scale of the VR and Evolution models can be attained, if not identically, certainly similarly in other speakers. YMMV
I am in agreement with Mike in regard to those who have not used upper end cables have a blind spot as to what they can do for an audio system. My experience has been to avoid passively networked cables, but well built and designed cables that are not cost-no-object can yield striking performance. Cheaper cables I have tried (several) have no elegance.
The Legacy and Kingsound speakers were reviewed by myself for Dagogo.com
Cables? Again? The short of it is buy what you can afford and be happy with them. But if I was a gazillionare I’d not spend thousands on cables. What a waste.
Other than the big problem you had ordering the VR11s, would you still consider the Ultra 9 or 11 if you didn’t have your Evolution MM 7s?
absolutely; the VR11 Ultra is the only dynamic cone speaker besides my MM7’s with similar mid bass driver surface. which is a huge issue in ease and transparency. i've heard the VR11 Ultra's and VR9 Ultra's at shows and loved both of them, my only issue is both are silly expensive. my MM7's are bargains in comparison and have equal at least performance.
and the Ultra series now uses ceramic mids and woofers like my MM7’s.
i did like the VR9SE Mk2’s, but not as much as i liked the MM3’s.....or the MM3 Exact’s.
you can’t go wrong with Von Schweikert’s or Evolution Acoustics.
@mikelavigne Thank you for the update. I previously saw your Evolution MMs on some equipment review(s) but I didn't put 2 & 2 together. I had a local dealer who discontinued the Von Schweikert line and kept the B&W line (very inferior in my opinion). I've been told that the VR 9SE Mark II is much upgraded from the original you had. I want to keep my amps (125w tube monoblocks) and VS told me I would need more power for the VR55s. The Evolutions MM3s would be the largest speaker my room could accommodate. My room is also superior design/construction but is only 19'6" X 16' X 10' interior dimensions so larger speakers are out. Other than the big problem you had ordering the VR11s, would you still consider the Ultra 9 or 11 if you didn't have your Evolution MM 7s? The only other speaker I considered were the Lumenwhite Kyaras (also efficient) but they are too small a company for me to sink $40-$60K into.
After you sold you VR9SEs, didn’t you replace them with VR55s or the Ultra 9s? I intend to purchase the VR9SE MkIIs. I have a superb engineered listening room but I don’t want to buy larger tube amps so I decided against the much less efficient VR55s. I figure that the adjust-ability will make up for the new technology of the VR55s (the Ultra 9s are out of my price league).
@fleschler
my Von Schweikert story has a few twists and turns, a few i’ll keep to myself.
obviously i owned VR9SE’s in 2005-2006 until a friend (from Hong Kong) made me an offer to buy them i could not refuse. so what i did was try to purchase VR11SE’s. at first i was going to buy a set of VR11SE demo’s, but it turned out they were already sold. so i ordered a new set to be built. this was summer of 2006. Von Schweikert then sent me a set of VR7SE’s to use until my VR11SE’s showed up.
5 months later my VR11SE’s had not yet even been started, i had no idea what was going on, so i decided to buy a set of speakers from a new company, Evolution Acoustics. i bought the 2nd set of MM3’s to be produced. i was still waiting for my VR11SE’s to show up thinking when i got those i would choose which speakers to keep. i then had the MM3’s, the VR7SE’s in my garage crated up, and the VR11SE’s still on order.
turned out there was a dispute between my dealer and Von Schweikert which was causing the delay in starting my VR11SE’s. and eventually by mutual agreement the order was cancelled.....but not because i did not want those speakers. a few years later there was a legal settlement involved which i’m not getting into.
so i did not leave Von Schweikert, Von Schweikert left me! and i still love those speakers to this day.
btw; the ’Ultra’ versions of the Von Schweikert speakers did not appear until 5-6 years ago.....2014-2015; which was 8 years after my experience. when i was involved it was just ’SE’.
and.......my Evolution Acoustics MM3's and now my MM7's were designed by Kevin Malmgren, who also happened to be the designer of the VR9SE and VR11SE while he worked for Von Schweikert.....prior to moving over to Evolution.
@mikelavigne After you sold you VR9SEs, didn't you replace them with VR55s or the Ultra 9s? I intend to purchase the VR9SE MkIIs. I have a superb engineered listening room but I don't want to buy larger tube amps so I decided against the much less efficient VR55s. I figure that the adjust-ability will make up for the new technology of the VR55s (the Ultra 9s are out of my price league).
The multiple times I've auditioned systems using Transparent Audio cabling, it seemed that the more expensive cabling levels resulted in worse sounding systems (even though the systems also were more expensive). Just my experience.
I am a beta tester for a cable manufacturer and don't intend to change my cabling with any new equipment (cartridge and speakers only). After 20+ years of testing and various lines, I purchased the top of the line Pharaoh GroverHuffman cables which retail in the $700 to $1000 range for PCs and ICs and double that for long speaker cables. His Empress line now incorporates some of the new attributes of the Pharaoh line at 40%-50% lower price. My system is high end but by no means SOTA. The cabling is as important as the equipment.
Thanks for sharing. This is a Top level cable system for a Top level audio system. One owes to himself to find such a set up in retail to hear all things possible. Audio Advice in Raleigh NC is one dealer/retailer to feature this experience. Expensive- yes. Experience- priceless.
Prices for audio equipment are unbelievable. I inherited what was probably, at new prices in 1980, a system that cost about $12,000 back then. I inherited it from an audio dealer friend who passed away. I've listened to this system since 1998. It blows me away. The best part of this system is the preamp - a Spatial Coherence TVA1. There were only 400 ever made, and I am privileged to have one. Its sound has been compared to preamps costing $20K or more. This system does far more than keep me happy.
I have a lot of heritage low end of this brand and it works quite well for my ears. Blew away everything I ever replaced with them for both interconnects and speaker interfaces.
In order for technology to "trickle down", there has to be some quantifiable proof that 1.) there is in fact some technology that is being applied in a product that is not found in cheaper models, and 2.) that the technology actually fixes an issue in some repeatable way. It should also be true that there is a level of technology/use of materials that will be the best for the job, and there would be no better in the transmission of signals. You might not have the level of equipment that would take full advantage of the "best" cables, but the idea that you should spend a certain percentage of your money on cables no matter how much you spend makes no sense. Similar to walking into a car dealership and asking a car's price, and the the salesman asking how much money you have, because he bases the price of the car off of that. What that magic level is, there is no agreement nor evidence to prove it one way or the other (the cable companies certainly don't provide it). As always, if spending $20,000 on cables will make you happy somehow, have at it. At least try expensive cables with the option of taking them back if you must, and keep the ones that fill your heart with joy.
"Allow"? It wasn’t allowed in the 1950s. We had a 90% tax rate, ... and we had David Hafler. The Dyna Stereo-70 amplifier was launched in 1959, and more than 350,000 sold before production ceased, making the ST-70 the most popular tube power amplifier in history. Today, the Dynaco ST-70 is still considered to be one of the most outstanding tube amplifiers ever made.
Thanks for throwing some perspective. I fantasize about owning certain gear I will never own, usually pre-amps and DACs. I will reserve some dream-time for cables.
are you saying Transparent is lying about the network being Carbon Fiber?
No, I'm saying "That's about $6 worth of laminate print over ABS to emulate carbon fiber." You know ... like the CF laminate parts you can buy for automotive trim for $20 to make things look expensive.
After 40 years in this hobby, I have bought and retired probably 50 pairs of speaker cables. I think most of us have the "used cable" box or drawer. I will say that there is some logic to the phrase "pay once and cry once". As long as the "pay once" cables are indeed a ’final solution’ or the absolute best for your speakers and system, and if you achieve musical satisfaction, where you can say "there may be better out there, but in the here and no - I'm good". There is definite value to no longer wondering or being somehow dissatisfied with the sound of your system. Quality, technologically advanced high end cables ARE ’too expensive’; but they represent not just material cost(s), but time, designer’s experience, and technology implementation. How much is your time and ultimately satisfaction worth? Personally, if they are the perfect fit for my amp and speakers, speaker cables for example are worth one-two weeks salary. A month’s? Probably not so much. But, it’s going to be different for everyone.
You goez to work,you savez your moneyz, and you buyz stuff. Welocome to the real world. I can’t afford Uber expensive items,and never will. But by God,I will not begrudge someone that can. That my friends is the US of A. Everyone does not get a participation award.
There are regular cables, and then there are cables with a built-in network/component, the two are totally different animals. A lot can be done to change the sound with a network connected to it. What will they come up with next, a cable with drivers at the end, and still call it a cable?
I would hate to think reputable cable companies would try to fool us into thinking we can get a lot better sound if we spend a lot more money. So I did spend a lot more money on my cables because they sounded much more neutral, however with a slightly forward presentation, not warm but there was notably less edge on the crack of snare rim shots, slightly more air under orchestral strings without being too floaty, still have a well preserved image on delicate garden music (you can actually hear the Petunias growing), a wonderful open, but slightly restrained sound on Norwegian Death metal. They also have a masculine look without being offensive to those of a more gentle nature. Also they don't need batteries.
Hey, check this out, a cable comment! If you have read some of my other dialogue/comments on other threads than you would know that I really enjoy the Audioquest brand of products for signal cables, speaker cables, power cables, and AC conditioners. So here comes the comment. I have owned the Rocket 88 speaker cables for the past year. It's a very good and very respectable cable that is not inexpensive at $1,200 for an 8' pair (relative to one's budget) but not too terribly expensive either (also, relative to one's budget). I just took delivery of a significant step up in the line, the William Tell ZERO speaker cable, which is $3,000 for an 8' pair. This is pushing the boundary of cost on speaker cable, for me. I had a good long listening session last night. I figured that I would be pleased with results. However, what I discovered was a level of improvement that went well past my expectations. It was rather awesome, to say the least. Some of you may want to think that I found the greatly improved results only due to my wanting to rationalize the added expense, or possibly some other explanation. I have been involved with quality audio products for many years and know better than that. If the product is not so good I won't make excuses to find any justification for my investment, I'll just move on. The bottom line is that high grade (and yes, more costly) speaker cable (and other types of cables) do indeed play a big role in overall sound quality. And, more importantly, in personal enjoyment of your audio system.
Now, does $65,000 for a pair of speaker cables make sense to me? Absolutely not. I don't have the rest of the system that would keep up, even if it does provide some added level of sound quality. And it's way out of my league and budget, anyway. I have always recommended to buy products that are a good relative match to one another. Even that, however, leaves plenty of room for placing your money how you best believe it will provide the best return on investment and maybe leave room for ad-on improvements at a later date. If you have the money, if you have the desire, and if you have the smarts to know where best to place your investment, then you should do as you wish. Do enjoy the music.
@glubson You said it yourself. The vast majority of those institutions are supported by DONATIONS... in other words, by the PEOPLE. We are BY FAR the most giving society in the world. Why? Because we the people, CAN. Our people are not being saved by other countries... There will always be the “haves” and “have nots“. No matter the scheme of governance.
There is a diminishing return element to all the components in audio. I agree that $65,000 for cables is utterly ridiculous. But again, it is up to people to make their own decisions regarding their own money.
"Cable threads are not worth participating in much anymore." I feel that way about Audiogon period and have been very reluctant to post anything. I respect different opinions and like to have dialogue with people. So many threads on Audiogon turn into senseless arguments that prevents Audiogon members from learning anything.
My conscience won’t allow me subscribe to unfettered capitalism that enables one person have 1000 million dollars.
First, the puppet masters create these conditions so 'the masses' will cry out for a government intervention. The intervention, more government control = socialism/marxism.
I am a capitalist/market guy but $65,000 speaker cables? How can we influence the younger generation to get into this hobby?
@twoleftears That is a very good question. All I know, is that based on hearing quite a lot of the Transparent line, they make sure there is a pretty audible difference at each level (at least to my ears, on pretty high quality systems). And each level doubles in cost. Whatever the pricing strategy is, it worked to get me to buy. But I'm unlikely to ever go past the Reference line - if I put any more money into my system, it will go elsewhere.
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