I see the issue with ABX blind testing

But from what I can see the benefit, if there is one, will be most noticeable system wide. In other words, just switching one power cable the way I did before won’t be sufficient for you to tell a difference... again, assuming there is one.

That’s not been my experience. I can hear a difference when one cable/interconnect is changed and determine which one I like better. That’s how I ended up with a full loom of Acoustic Zen cables in my system. Started out with speaker cables, then an interconnect, and so on. Each cable made a positive difference, and as I added more AZ cables the benefits just became additive giving more of what I liked. I’d suggest starting with the interconnect closest to your source component(s) as in my experience I tend to hear the most marked changes there. I also didn’t feel the need to do a blind test. I find changing a cable, going back to the old cable, and then back again to the new cable is usually enough to lock down and solidify my impressions as to which just sounds better and why. Just be honest with yourself and trust your ears, and if the cheaper cable sounds better to you or you don’t hear a significant difference in your system then so be it. The other thing is to use songs that more easily expose various elements of music. One song I used to use is “Muddy Water” from Keb’ Mo’s Slow Down CD as it’s well recorded and is great for assessing cymbals, vocals, bass, imaging, 3D soundstage, dynamics, etc., plus the whole CD is great and fun to listen to.  The key is trusting your ears and being honest with yourself about what you really prefer. Anyway, that’s what’s worked for me FWIW. Hope this helps a little, and best of luck.

Everyone and every situation is different. It generally takes me a while to notice the smaller differences... like those in cables. A couple of weeks (or more) is not unusual for me, but it helps overcome day to day variables like my mood, any supply grid differences, sinus, ear, or pressure differences, etc. Switching back and forth quickly will typically only reveal bigger differences, which is not generally what I hear between decent cables. Once I hear any differences, it becomes easier to recognize them, and then I can make a decision about whether it’s a change I want to keep or not. How long is your dealer willing to let you listen to them before you have to decide?

My experience also is that one cable at a time can make a noticeable difference, though the debate then seems to become quick back and forth or longer term listening to decide...you've been using your old cables for enough time, so pop in some new ones and trust your own judgement...also want to mention you may like or not like the Super, but there are many excellent cables in between the price point of your old ones and the Supers...

Thanks for the advice. I think the dealer will let me have the cables for a month.

I live-recorded 4 power cords yesterday. You can test PCs as I did in below video. Can you hear the sound difference in cables? Click these times (4:46 JPS), (9:50 Zentara), (14:38 WT v2), (18:53 WTPC) to hear different cables. Alex/WTA

@dwcda few things…

1. You have a reflective floor
2. You have a subwoofer in the center in front of the speakers and it creates reflections. Remember the sound travels towards the listener and will reflect off every first and second reflection point - your floor, your side walls, your subwoofer. Those “bass traps” help with standing waves but you missed everything else
3. Blind testing cables with a relatively quick switching for AB doesn’t give you a chance to get familiar with the sound and start identifying the high and low points of the presentation. You need at least 2-3 days to familiarize yourself with the sound. Then switch back to your old set. Usually you can tell right away.

At least move the sub out of there for the cable evaluation and lay down a rug  

If you don’t hear the difference then you don’t hear the difference. It could be due to room acoustics, the cables really don’t sound any different or your hearing is not trained enough to hear it.
Send the cables back and enjoy the music.

The flooring is 5/8" rubber mats. They sit on a floor covered in marmoleum flooring. Both offer acoustic abilities. The difference in sound from the hardwood flooring on the upstairs room is pretty impressive. But I do have a large thick rug that I plan to move downstairs to try.

The subwoofer is only there temporarily. I haven't spent the time to figure out where it sounds best so it's not usually turned on.

There are two 7" Monster bass traps at each side reflection point, corner bass traps at the back walls and additional bass traps with diffusion plates on them on the back wall. I have ceiling brackets coming to mount two bass traps at the first reflection on the ceiling.

Awesome! Treat the first reflection points that will be the best way to approach it. Nice system you have just don’t let it go to waste due to bad room. 

dwcda

04-11-2024 7:25am

There is no way my brain is retaining what I previously heard and then comparing it to what I currently hear.

@dwcda correct. And this has been demonstrated to take less time than many audio gurus assume. If comparisons are not a literal flip-switch, subjects can be quick to lose, alter or invent, context. A “trust your ears” stance is necessarily deaf to this ubiquitous limitation, and I think that’s fine so long as the choice is not professed to be useful for everyone’s case.

The alternative is to connect all of the new cables, listen for a week or so & then switch back & see if you feel you’re missing anything. But then your brain takes over & your biases will have as much impact as any potential change in sound quality.

That’s not an alternative, it’s a totally different (and perhaps even less-controlled) test that will probably give inconclusive results. The second part, you’re surely accurate.

So I’m stumped as to how to proceed.

There are options, but they require designs using repeated measures and those won’t do well with a sample size of one (listener). By virtue of how such comparisons have to work to be analytically robust, one person listening for preference differences is a non-starter.

Situations like these, some folks will decide on alternative assessments that aren’t controlled. And for some folks, that’s good enough (and again, I agree fine, if they’re not processing it to be suitable as a rule). If one cable or three cables or all cables make a difference to your perception, whatever kinds of tests you have or have not done, the query for you is: How much difference should be perceived for said device(s) to be worthy of inclusion / purchase?

An A/B switch box is needed to evaluate those power cords. The hand switching delay makes comparison difficult because aural memory is so fleeting! Like the human eye watching fireworks. By the time a switch is made the aural memory is gone!

I bet the use of an A/B switch box would embarrass the claims made by all of these cable companies!

Back in the late 70’s Audioquest made such an A/B box available for its dealers to evaluate interconnects. I tried it out! As the French chef said about his margarine compared to butter "No diffawrance!" Wonder why Audioquest soon withdrew its A/B switch box?

i see these switchers on the used market sporatically. van alstine more recently has such a component. i think its the abx switch comparator. ive seen em for sale within the past year. 

 

Hey OP what Transparent model cables did your dealer give you. And have you already listened to your system with these cables? I remember checking out bottom of the line transparent and I was not impressed. This was a long time ago though. 

The decision was quickly obvious to me, when I "upgraded" from Transparent Super to less expensive Cerious Technologies Speaker cables and XLR's...

And this has been demonstrated to take less time than many audio gurus assume. If comparisons are not a literal flip-switch, subjects can be quick to lose, alter or invent, context. A “trust your ears” stance is necessarily deaf to this ubiquitous limitation, and I think that’s fine so long as the choice is not professed to be useful for everyone’s case.

@benanders Lots of things have been “demonstrated” one way or another but doesn’t make something “ubiquitous.”  I’ve heard consistent differences manually switching between many cables and did not need instantaneous switching to hear it, and these difference were consistent, clear, and repeatable.  Some people, apparently like yourself, don’t possess the ability to do this so can’t trust their own ears, but it’s a very useful method for those of us who can.  

@dwcda 

I'm with audphile1 on this one. Start improving the room before you mess with the cables. Sub in front center between speakers can't be good. If it's temporary and you don't use it, move it out. Dual subs on opposite walls outside of speakers would be where to start. The rubber floor would seem to me to be way too absorbing. With all the absorbing material you already got, you would benefit greatly by adding a lot of diffusing, specially on first reflection points and rear wall. Your front diffuser between the speakers produce very little diffusing. People usually place it there for something to look at. It does very little for audio. Once you get more clarity and better soundstage with the appropriate amount of diffusing, you will be able to tell the difference between cables much better. And I am not talking about diffusers/absorbers like the front ones, but pure diffusers.I am only speaking from my personal experience as I learned a lot about acoustic treatment in my house of stereo. I always appreciate audiophiles who pay attention to the room so I applaud you. However you have quite a ways to go yet. It took me over two years to get it right. Enjoy the journey.

@soix your arguments are falling on deaf ears. 

I agree that ABX testing sounds good on the surface but is not very practical. Thanks in part to @soix , I followed a similar path, starting with Zen speaker cables. My system is now at a level where I can hear the difference in a new cable immediately, but they also change over a period of days such that a quick ABX test is not sufficient to get a true feel for the cable. 
 

FWIW, I had the exact same speaker cables you have, they are okay, but with a system like yours, throw some Satori’s in there and see. And move the sub, but that is a separate issue. 

I am sorry that blind testing is so hard. I mean, that is how drugs, etc. are tested. Yes, it would take some planning but can be done. After all the Boston Audio Society did it with amplifiers in the 1980's. It can be done.

Just remember, our brains only a small amount of heard information, when doing comparisons.

This is why most dealers, tell you what you are hearing, play it the piece, tell you again, and then play it again. They are reinforcing that information in your brain.

I think it would help if you knew what the cable did to the signal, in technical terms. If you could measure that, it may be possible to derive a test signal that accentuates the difference. I know this won’t tell you if you actually like the sound better or not on real music, but it will allow you to determine at least that you can actually hear a difference. I know they can do this for absolute polarity. A properly made test signal will make the difference quickly apparent for most listeners, while with regular music it can be very difficult for most of us to tell. It’s a nice thing that our hearing is generally quite forgiving of small differences. I call it subconscious auto correct. 

I’ll now offer an anecdotal tale. I had a customer measure the clarity of his bass after he made some adjustments to his room and system. I analyzed a bunch of his measurements and they all were very good, with one setup being slightly better than the rest. He then told me that a DIY power cord he’d made for his subwoofers seemed to improve clarity, so I asked him to make comparison measurements with and without the new power cord. Guess what? The clarity measured higher! Now it could be just a random result. We’d have to control all factors very carefully to be sure the change was a result of the power cord. But it does suggest that measurements can demonstrate these differences if someone is willing to take them.

If cables do change the sound (they don't) it would be audible by changing any one of them. Swap out the amp power cable with a different one would make a difference were it true.

 

roadcykler

76 posts

04-11-2024 at 03:54pm 

If cables do change the sound (they don't) it would be audible by changing any one of them. Swap out the amp power cable with a different one would make a difference were it true.

Were you a Mel Gibson double in Forever Young and they just thawed you out?

In all my years in this hobby I only ran into a scenario where two different cables sounded almost alike once. I had to really struggle to hear any difference. In was Zavfino Arcadia and some low end neotech. This was an RCA link between Sutherland 20/20 phono amp and Pass XP22 preamp. Both cables were cheap low end stuff that sounded ok - music was played by my system just fine. 
 

Not counting that instance, every time I swapped cables I heard a difference. Further more if I rotate the existing power cords in my set up from amps to digital and from digital to amps I can hear a difference. The result isn’t always good though. No blind test required. 

No blind test required.

I just tested three cables put here by a cable maker in few minutes through youtube...

It is not perfect but very easy to spot the diffrences if you own a balanced system even with music through system/room i did not know with youtube ...😉

Double blind test is like randomized studies imposed by corporations over clinical observation by doctors often a way to "control" the message in the right direction ...

I used simple blind test in my experiments as routine ...

abx double blind test can be useful but it is in no way a proof of anything... A tool is not a proof...

In all my years in this hobby I only ran into a scenario where two different cables sounded almost alike once.

+1 @audphile1 This has been exactly my experience as well.  After many, many interconnect and cable comparisons there’s only been one instance where I could not discern any difference at all between two.  This begs the question, if cables make no difference in sound did I only hear it correctly that one time and was incorrect in hearing differences every other time?  If cables make no difference then my experience should’ve been exactly the other way ‘round.  If someone thinks all cables sound the same I can only surmise either their hearing and/or system is significantly compromised. 

My issue with having people over for blind testing is all the stumbling around and knocking things over. Otherwise it's great.

soix

8,549 posts

04-11-2024 at 08:24pm

 

“And this has been demonstrated to take less time than many audio gurus assume. If comparisons are not a literal flip-switch, subjects can be quick to lose, alter or invent, context. A “trust your ears” stance is necessarily deaf to this ubiquitous limitation, and I think that’s fine so long as the choice is not professed to be useful for everyone’s case.”

 

@benanders Lots of things have been “demonstrated” one way or another but doesn’t make something “ubiquitous.” I’ve heard consistent differences manually switching between many cables and did not need instantaneous switching to hear it, and these difference were consistent, clear, and repeatable. Some people, apparently like yourself, don’t possess the ability to do this so can’t trust their own ears, but it’s a very useful method for those of us who can.

Heyya @soix certain biological “limitations” in human hearing x associated cognitive functions certainly have demonstrated ubiquity. Despite that, there’s nothing necessarily wrong with you or anyone else trusting your respective perceptions in music kit. Professing those perceptions to be “consistent, clear, and repeatable” for others is, however, either in honest error or purposefully misleading. You need a proper assessment to claim broad applicability of perception(s), and typing disparaging speculation about someone’s hearing and/or audio kit doesn’t supplant that need, no matter how many times you do the latter. 😉

audphile1

4,068 posts

04-11-2024 at 09:19pm

 

@soix your arguments are falling on deaf ears.

@audphile1 WHAT??

Lol

Professing those perceptions to be “consistent, clear, and repeatable” for others is, however, either in honest error or purposefully misleading.

@benanders So, you’re saying I’m not hearing what I’m hearing despite hearing it consistently after multiple back-and-forth comparisons?  It’s really sad some people need studies to tell them what they can and can’t hear.  I’d submit it’s misleading (and arrogant) for you to maintain that using your ears is an error and misleading based on some study somewhere.  Pretty sure most people here have been able to discern differences between two products, but I guess you need to be told what you can hear rather than being able to objectively judge something for yourself.  Sad.  Deaf ears indeed.

A fundamental property of human perception is that it is variable. The same person experiencing the same thing on different occasions will have a slightly different experience of that thing. Different people experiencing the same thing at the same time will also have slightly different experiences of that thing. That is why measurement of psychological phenomena typically makes use of samples of data. If each person's experience is measured using a psychologically valid scale you will get a distribution of measurements with an average value and a degree of variability (e.g., standard deviation or statistical error). This enables you to say whether two distributions of data are different from one another (or not). 

So, invite a dozen buddies over to listen to each cable (not telling them which is which) and have each of them rate each cable using a psychologically valid metric (a 7-point scale anchored with the labels Like Extremely, Like Somewhat, Like Slightly, No Opinion, Dislike Slightly, Dislike Somewhat, Dislike Extremely would suffice) and you will get an average and a standard deviation for each cable. Calculate the Mean and 95% Confidence Interval for each distribution and if the two don't overlap, well, then, pick the cable with the highest mean Liking.

You can see that this takes a bit of work, but that is what is required for a  psychologically valid answer. I have actually done such research for several corporations at which I have worked. Same thing applies for visual and tactile experiences.

@wolf_garcia 

I can't see what you're saying, but I hear ya.

I picture some of these guys starving if they had to hunt for food to survive.  The conversation in the woods would go something like this:  “You only think you heard a deer because you wanted to hear a deer.  I didn’t hear anything therefore, there is no deer.  We need to move on.“

So, invite a dozen buddies over to listen to each cable 
 

another invalid use case. And another reason why blind testing doesn’t work in audio. Aside from sound preferences being highly personal so I wouldn’t care what my buddies think is the best sound if it isn’t the best sound to me, you’re polling people who aren’t familiar with one’s system and who aren’t even audiophiles. 

Experience shows when we’re having discussions like this and clearly a lot of people out there lack it. 
 

If you need blind testing or your buddies to tell you which cables sound best, don’t waste your time and money. Just get a system that plays music and enjoy it. Don’t burden yourself. 
 

All acoustician are fraudster because they trust their trained ears and do not only takes measures...

There is a big difference between hearing an unknown piece of gear from an unknownm system in unknown room condition and hearing the same piece AFTER you embed it right mechanically, electrically and acoustically in your room ..

After doing that i trust my ears without the need of double blind test ABX device , those who think otherwise had never embed their system properly or they are deaf and so untrained they dont trust their own feelings and perception...

They need to know for sure if what they feel can be approved by others and verified as perfect even if it means negate what they hear and prefer what the measuring tool say...Why not? they are fee to do so but by depreciating the way others do it for ideological reason then ? 😊

People are contaminated by corporations safe guideline or sometimes propagandap    ....Double blind test are one like randomised trials over clinician observations... Useful in industry useless in my room and i prefer a free doctor to big pharma...

@tonywinga lmao

Pshshsh, who conflates a deer hunt with the OP topic - wild goose chase - anyway!? 😉

soix

8,553 posts

04-12-2024 at 08:46pm 

“Professing those perceptions to be “consistent, clear, and repeatable” for others is, however, either in honest error or purposefully misleading.”

@benanders So, you’re saying I’m not hearing what I’m hearing despite hearing it consistently after multiple back-and-forth comparisons?  

That’s definitely not what I “said,” @soix  . Demonstrable difference and perceived difference are not necessarily the same thing. If cables aren’t being demonstrated to have difference (whether through properly arranged listener pref studies or measurements or some option I’m unaware of), then there’s no evidence to support a perception of difference. That doesn’t mean something perceived as being different is not real. It simply means there’s insufficient reason to assume it would apply in any other situation, since so many other variables will change at the same time.

It’s really sad some people need studies to tell them what they can and can’t hear.  

Well, I tend to think it keeps some things more predictable and interesting. Emotions like sorrow tend to get in the way of objectivity. 😉

I’d submit it’s misleading (and arrogant) for you to maintain that using your ears is an error and misleading based on some study somewhere.  

Again, no one here has suggested that. What works for you works for you. But professing what you perceive should apply to others’ perceptions and/or use cases? Better off having some evidence.

Pretty sure most people here have been able to discern differences between two products,

Absolutely. As aforementioned, can be demonstrable or can be perceived (or can be both), so can be real or can be imagined (cannot be both); this gets muddled when some folks who don’t consider the discrepancies discuss everything they perceive as though it were demonstrable (= evidentially supported).

So like I said, whether or not it’s intentional, that style of presentation can be misleading.

but I guess you need to be told what you can hear rather than being able to objectively judge something for yourself.  Sad.  Deaf ears indeed.

But professing what you perceive should apply to others’ perceptions and/or use cases? Better off having some evidence.

I don't find that people do that. For the most part I've found that those who think cables make a difference will detail their experience and explain which cables they have liked and why. I don't find that they tell me that my experience will be the same. Those who feel cables are snake oil often do so without trying the cables being discussed and do think that their perception should apply to everyone.

@dwcda so what are you hearing with the transparent cables in your system? Any conclusions?

I designed and built my own A/B/X box with volume matching for testing speakers, but there is no reason that it couldn't be used for testing cables if both sets were connected to the same pair of speakers.

Hey, someone’s got to put the cable manufacturer’s kids through college.  Might as well enjoy doing that.

What works for you works for you. But professing what you perceive should apply to others’ perceptions and/or use cases? Better off having some evidence.

@benanders Yeah, and if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass a hoppin’. Back in the real world and in most cases there is limited or no “evidence,” especially with something like cables. I mean, that’s why we’re here — to give others an indication of something they might or might not want to audition or try, not to profess as you say that our perceptions will necessarily be the same as theirs, but indications can still be very useful and helpful despite the inherent variability. (BTW, when I said I can hear differences that are clear, consistent, and repeatable I was saying for me — not necessarily others — in response to your assertion based on some study somewhere that people’s aural memory is crap and you need a flip switch to reliably discern differences — I again say hogwash to that.) People here understand that “your mileage may vary” when it comes to other’s opinions/perceptions, especially when it comes to cables, so once again we get back to you ultimately need to trust your ears because they’re the only variables that matter in the end. And measurements are not comprehensive or foolproof either and so as with perceptions are also just an indication so best to use both if possible IMO.

 Back in 1980 I was ready to buy some new speakers.  My wife and I visited a few audio stores and I even took a couple of my own records to audition some speakers.  I got down to two pairs that I liked and I wanted my wife's opinion.  The salesman set up his switch box to go between each pair.  I could hear the differences easily.  My wife stood there waiting for the salesman to switch the speakers but he had already switched them back a forth a couple of times  She could not tell.  I was incredulous that she heard no difference.  It's been my stereo system ever since.  When I play a song she likes she might come sit by me for a bit.

@dwcda so what are you hearing with the transparent cables in your system? Any conclusions?

I just swapped my Mogami for the Transparent. To me they immediately sounded better but after 10 minutes  of swapping it's really hard  to tell. So  I'll play them for a week, taking notes on individual sections of songs that really stand out for me & then swap back & relisten to  those sections.

Hi OP, I was just about to post something about my own experience going Mogami --> Transparent but it seems you’ve stumbled on a similar conclusion in the interim. I'd be curious to see how your impressions evolve over the coming days.

I was a big time fan of Mogami 2549 and especially 2497 for unbalanced connections, but over the past few months I’ve been upgrading all my cables to Transparent Super or Ultra level for power, ICs and speakers. Always buying used because I can’t afford new. The upgrade in soundstage width, detail and, well, transparency, with each new cable is, for me, instantly obvious and well worth the cost. Mogami is no slouch but I find it is much easier to hear changes in components, tubes, HQPlayer filters, etc, with this new loom.

@dwcda good approach! As I said earlier, quick AB is not the greatest way to do it. How you’re approaching it is the right way. So what model transparent?

So what model transparent?

Super.

Super! Should be a decent improvement over the Mogami. 
Not difficult to hear. I expect more refined sound especially in mids and treble with better layering in the soundstage. Better texture overall.
Mogami is your basic decent cables but they don’t have the depth and refinement of cables on the level of Transparent Super. It’s going to come down to whether or not the improvements take you closer to your ideal sound and are worth it to you.

Good luck! And keep us posted.