I see the issue with ABX blind testing

The common ground here is that we pretty much all recognize that we as humans have biases, and I’d venture to guess most of us aren’t opposed to ABX testing.  The difference here is that the @botrytis believes we are completely incapable of overcoming our biases or listening objectively, and thus the only valid way to judge audio equipment is ABX because we as humans are incompetent and are just fooling ourselves.  So if I hear a silver interconnect and a copper interconnect and find the former brighter and hyper detailed and the latter warmer and more natural sounding and prefer that latter I’m just hearing my biases and need ABX to confirm my impressions.  Especially audiophiles who’ve listened to lots of gear and have identified what sounds good to them know what they hear and ultimately vote with their hard-earned dollars accordingly.  The fungal disease doesn’t believe people who have long experience listening to a wide variety of gear constitutes valid training or expertise in being able to judge audio equipment but that somehow scientists and musicians have a more valid form of training for this purpose.  Ha!  When it comes to choosing audio equipment nothing is better or more valuable than broad listening experience, and you can’t get that by reading books, understanding scientific method, or playing an instrument.  I’d much sooner trust a seasoned audiophile’s recommendations with years of listening experience over a scientist, engineer, or musician with less listening experience and perspective any day.  Hell, I know lots of musicians and all but one have crap audio systems and are completely clueless and incapable of assessing audio equipment or systems because they have no experience or perspective to be able to do so.  So how does all that musical training translate to audio?  It doesn’t much like you wouldn’t want a foot doctor to do brain surgery — they’re completely different disciplines and while I’d certainly like a violinist to help me choose a violin or a scientist to help conduct an experiment I’ve no interest in their opinions on audio equipment if they have little experience in listening to home audio.  So yeah, it’s possible to gain valuable experience and perspective and to train your ears to hear salient differences between audio equipment and systems, and if you don’t have that experience I don’t care what your other training may be because it doesn’t make you a better or even a useful listener or evaluator of audio equipment.  Or you can just bury your head in the sand and believe we are complete slaves to our biases and that listening experience counts for nothing.  If that’s what you believe then it begs the question why even be here at all because it’s nothing but a collection of biases and so are obviously then meaningless to you.  Maybe you just get off on being a troll here, and that’s just a sad existence and absolutely pointless and useless here.

Everyone knows Red cars are faster and sexier
 

Actually that’s kinda funny.  @tonywinga I’m sure you know there’s no point in debating anyone who worships at the alter of blind testing or similarly are of the “belief” that cables make no difference — aka people who can’t or haven’t developed the ability to use/trust their own ears so must have their opinions justified/confirmed by some objective measure.  To them I say whatever and to each his own.  As a general rule I find it better to just disregard anything submitted by a fungal disease because nothing good or productive comes from it. 😝🙄

@jetter I’m not against blind testing at all and would welcome it given the opportunity and would incorporate the results into my decision making. It’s just that some here think it’s impossible to overcome our biases or make good or valid judgements on equipment without blind testing and that bias overrides all listening impressions that aren’t blind, and that I don’t agree with at all. Especially for experienced audiophiles serious and knowledgeable about sound, biases can influential but are not determinative. As usual the reality probably resides in the middle where both what we hear and our inherent biases are involved, but I’m not in the camp where biases are necessarily determinative although I’m sure it’s true in some cases but certainly not all as some would have you think.

I was just saying much of what audiophiles actually hear is this bias.

@botrytis  And much of it is not.  So what?  Do you eat blindfolded?  In the end we buy what we like most all things considered, so who cares?  While biases may be at play to some extent (and probably varies greatly by person BTW) they don’t necessarily undermine or overwhelm what we hear and do not invalidate the purchasing decision process.  Saying people are biased seems pointless much like in the way those who say there are no differences between cables because they’re not proven with measurements, and both are useless and tiresome IMHO.

@benanders  Your cryptic posts are serving no purpose here.  Your main point is that people’s opinions are basically invalid because they are not confirmed by a controlled scientific study and thus have not been proven and could be wrong or misleading.  Well duh, and welcome to the real world.  That’s why they’re opinions and not fact, which pretty much everyone here understands except you.  Continually pointing out that people’s opinions are potentially fallible is as tiresome as it is pointless.  If you have such low opinions of people’s subjective opinions and their reliability why are you even here?  Why continue to torture yourself (and us)?  Go play with your peeps at ASR and spare us, or better yet go start your own website where people are free to express their opinions as long as they’re confirmed by a rigorous study that conforms to strict scientific methods.  If that doesn’t sound like a fruitful endeavor then you should understand why your posts are both ineffective and useless here.  And no, this was not Chat GPT generated.

@benanders Your post is as slanted as it is ineffective in its stated upfront point that differences between objective/measurement and subjective/trust your ears types are avoidable. You give several examples of “experts” who hear no difference between cables and then contrast them with people with no stated “expert” credentials as being able to hear differences. That’s ridiculously slanted from the start and shows your inherent bias. The fact is that there are plenty of your so called “experts” out there who hear cable differences and plenty who do not hear differences. And likewise there are plenty of people you’d classify as “non experts” who can and cannot hear differences in cables. Further, there are tons of audiophiles out there who may not have your idea of credentials (recording engineer, musician, etc.) but who have extensive experience comparing various cables and can readily hear differences between them, and I’d submit that this experience gives them excellent credentials and are people I value — frequently more than so called “experts” — and who I’d like to hear from.

The first setting can be proficient with objectivity (using appropriate assessments). The second setting can tend to think it masters objectivity (despite perhaps avoiding appropriate assessments).

And there’s your bias laid bare Objective people use so called “appropriate” measurements whereas people who subjectively evaluate cables by listening don’t use what you call “appropriate” measurements and only “think” they hear what they hear, which is a not very veiled slap at their credibility. You have no idea what the “appropriate” measurements are or if they’re sufficient or comprehensive enough to reliably assess the overall sound of a cable, which they’re not BTW. You start your thread stating the rift between the objective and subjective crowds is avoidable, but it’s just not and your post does nothing to explain how or why it’s avoidable. The objective/measurements contingent is dug in as are the subjective/trust your own ears crowd and thus it will remain and is unavoidable. Then there are those of us who are open to both sides, but the reality is there’s precious little measurement data on individual cables so we’re largely left to use our ears in choosing specific cables, and that’s just reality like it or not. You’re clearly in the objective/measurement contingent but try to dance around and hide it — just own it and that’s fine, but these indirect backhanded slaps you give here and elsewhere to the subjective/trust your ears crowd are unsuccessfully cloaked in some foggy veil of being unbiased and show your true colors. Personally I don’t hop onto threads where people tout measurements as necessary to assess a cable’s sound (not that there are many of those threads) yet objectivists who need/rely on measurements or believe there’s no difference between cables constantly pollute threads where people are looking for and value others subjective opinions, and that’s just useless and frequently serves to just derail an otherwise interesting and useful thread. But that, unfortunately, is likely unavoidable and inevitable here. But back to the original point here, your post does nothing to address the unavoidable rift with regard to cables but does yet again expose your disdain for those of us who are able to use/trust our ears no matter how hard you try to hide it.

Seems like any non audiophile that hears my system expects to be blown back into their chair by the bass. That‘s what seems to matter. They are generally disappointed.

@tonywinga Yeah, these are the same people who have the contrast and sharpness controls cranked up to 11 on their TVs and think Bose makes good stuff. Oh well.

Adding a second sub is almost always a great idea, and if you’re having difficulties hearing significant improvements with much pricier cables then I agree you will almost certainly hear a bigger improvement with a second, properly dialed-in sub.  FWIW.

You previously stated you surmise anyone who cannot hear differences that you perceive in cables, to have compromised hearing and/or equipment; that sure seems like professing to me. I’m unclear which stance you actually hold since it couldn’t very well be both, could it?

@benanders You took this out of context.  This was in response to another previous post by someone who adamantly stated there are no differences between cables whatsoever, which to me is patently absurd but he’s free to think whatever.  And I was clear that my opinions on individual cables (or components) are just an indication of what others may (or may not) hear, and I don’t profess at all that if they hear things differently that they’re wrong.  I still enjoy and find it helpful to hear other people’s subjective impressions of how things sound whether I ultimately agree with them or not, but most times I get something out of their opinions and learn something from them — that’s largely why I’m even here.  But you continue to hang your hat on biological studies, scientific panels, and things that supposedly can’t be measured with respect to cables in other various industries and I’ll just continue to listen and trust my ears.  Whatever, and to each his own.

What works for you works for you. But professing what you perceive should apply to others’ perceptions and/or use cases? Better off having some evidence.

@benanders Yeah, and if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass a hoppin’. Back in the real world and in most cases there is limited or no “evidence,” especially with something like cables. I mean, that’s why we’re here — to give others an indication of something they might or might not want to audition or try, not to profess as you say that our perceptions will necessarily be the same as theirs, but indications can still be very useful and helpful despite the inherent variability. (BTW, when I said I can hear differences that are clear, consistent, and repeatable I was saying for me — not necessarily others — in response to your assertion based on some study somewhere that people’s aural memory is crap and you need a flip switch to reliably discern differences — I again say hogwash to that.) People here understand that “your mileage may vary” when it comes to other’s opinions/perceptions, especially when it comes to cables, so once again we get back to you ultimately need to trust your ears because they’re the only variables that matter in the end. And measurements are not comprehensive or foolproof either and so as with perceptions are also just an indication so best to use both if possible IMO.

Professing those perceptions to be “consistent, clear, and repeatable” for others is, however, either in honest error or purposefully misleading.

@benanders So, you’re saying I’m not hearing what I’m hearing despite hearing it consistently after multiple back-and-forth comparisons?  It’s really sad some people need studies to tell them what they can and can’t hear.  I’d submit it’s misleading (and arrogant) for you to maintain that using your ears is an error and misleading based on some study somewhere.  Pretty sure most people here have been able to discern differences between two products, but I guess you need to be told what you can hear rather than being able to objectively judge something for yourself.  Sad.  Deaf ears indeed.

In all my years in this hobby I only ran into a scenario where two different cables sounded almost alike once.

+1 @audphile1 This has been exactly my experience as well.  After many, many interconnect and cable comparisons there’s only been one instance where I could not discern any difference at all between two.  This begs the question, if cables make no difference in sound did I only hear it correctly that one time and was incorrect in hearing differences every other time?  If cables make no difference then my experience should’ve been exactly the other way ‘round.  If someone thinks all cables sound the same I can only surmise either their hearing and/or system is significantly compromised. 

And this has been demonstrated to take less time than many audio gurus assume. If comparisons are not a literal flip-switch, subjects can be quick to lose, alter or invent, context. A “trust your ears” stance is necessarily deaf to this ubiquitous limitation, and I think that’s fine so long as the choice is not professed to be useful for everyone’s case.

@benanders Lots of things have been “demonstrated” one way or another but doesn’t make something “ubiquitous.”  I’ve heard consistent differences manually switching between many cables and did not need instantaneous switching to hear it, and these difference were consistent, clear, and repeatable.  Some people, apparently like yourself, don’t possess the ability to do this so can’t trust their own ears, but it’s a very useful method for those of us who can.  

But from what I can see the benefit, if there is one, will be most noticeable system wide. In other words, just switching one power cable the way I did before won’t be sufficient for you to tell a difference... again, assuming there is one.

That’s not been my experience. I can hear a difference when one cable/interconnect is changed and determine which one I like better. That’s how I ended up with a full loom of Acoustic Zen cables in my system. Started out with speaker cables, then an interconnect, and so on. Each cable made a positive difference, and as I added more AZ cables the benefits just became additive giving more of what I liked. I’d suggest starting with the interconnect closest to your source component(s) as in my experience I tend to hear the most marked changes there. I also didn’t feel the need to do a blind test. I find changing a cable, going back to the old cable, and then back again to the new cable is usually enough to lock down and solidify my impressions as to which just sounds better and why. Just be honest with yourself and trust your ears, and if the cheaper cable sounds better to you or you don’t hear a significant difference in your system then so be it. The other thing is to use songs that more easily expose various elements of music. One song I used to use is “Muddy Water” from Keb’ Mo’s Slow Down CD as it’s well recorded and is great for assessing cymbals, vocals, bass, imaging, 3D soundstage, dynamics, etc., plus the whole CD is great and fun to listen to.  The key is trusting your ears and being honest with yourself about what you really prefer. Anyway, that’s what’s worked for me FWIW. Hope this helps a little, and best of luck.