How to get into high end digital? (Feeding a DAC)

You can use your Nakamichi's coax digital output into the DAC via a Monoprice digital cable. Any CD/DVD player can serve as a transport. No need to spend big bucks! They all output the same data stream! Jitter is a non-issue with modern DACs. No need for a separate - and expensive - clock! Jitter in even cheap CD/DVD players is inaudible. This was a problem solved decades ago! Don't believe the pundits saying that spending ever more on a transport gives "better" sound quality. Not true! Digital is NOT like Analog! The same thing applies to cables. Cheap here works just as well as expensive. A $10 Monoprice digital cable is indistinguishable from a three or four figure cable - regardless of what the "golden ears" crowd claims. 

I will get a lot of flak for my post! But hey, those are the facts of life kids! 

Why Schiit or Topping? For less than $300 you can buy a Khadas 2 Tone Pro Dac that measures and sounds as good as any four-figure DAC! I own the earlier model, the KTB.

I am familiar with your Nak 5 disc CD player. The multiple disk was a nice feature, but it was not near as good as their Tape Decks, but the name sold it. If you want to keep playing your CD's, I would suggest getting a CD transport and feed it into a good DAC, you mentioned two good ones, but everyone has their favorite. However, if you want to get off of CD's, then buy either a Bluesound Vault or an Aurrender and burn them onto the hard drive. If you were used to loading the Nak and playing CD after CD, you will love being able to do it from your phone, laptop or iPad. I was 'talked' into the Bluesound 2 years ago and was glad I did, ever since then I never listen to my actual CD's. Also, the Vault and some of the Aurrenders will get you into streaming in a fast, easy way. Many opinions out there, so perhaps others will suggest otherwise, but this is what I did and it made getting into everything digital easy and quick, and I am still very happy.

You can use your Nakamichi's coax digital output into the DAC via a Monoprice digital cable.

There is only a red and a white RCA, and either it or the RCAs have tinny sound out of the RHS channel.
Hence no coax digital out (it is a last millennium unit).

... Any CD/DVD player can serve as a transport. No need to spend big bucks! They all output the same data stream! Jitter is a non-issue with modern DACs. No need for a separate - and expensive - clock! Jitter in even cheap CD/DVD players is inaudible.

Even if you were wrong, then if the DAC buffers the samples, so we should end with jitter free output after the DAC?? (Right?)

Why Schiit or Topping? For less than $300 you can buy a Khadas 2 Tone Pro Dac that measures and sounds as good as any four-figure DAC! I own the earlier model, the KTB.

I dunno…
If we trust specs, then they are demonstrably good…

But I’ll look at that Khadas 2. Thanks!

Over a few years I have trialed approx' 12 Digital COAX Cables all between 0.7mtr and 0.9mtr in length in Silver and Copper Signal Wiring and in a price range between £70 and £500.
Some are Branded and some have been custom made but produced to be marketed.
I have found Copper to be the most attractive in my set up, and chose a cheaper copper signal wire cable over a very expensive silver signal wire cable.
It then evolved to a Copper Ribbon replacing a Copper Wire and more recently it evolved into a D.U.C.C 7N Pure Copper Wired Cable replacing the Copper Ribbon.
There is one thing that is quite noticeable from my trials and recollections of these different cables, and that is the COAX Cable can make a CDT > DAC coupling a very attractive source when the Cable is discovered that produces an ideal interface and SQ for the end user.

@pindac How does it work?
I would expect that the digital bit stream would have to be altered?
or
That there is some ground loop or some other thing happening that is not part of bit stream, but affecting the analogue portion of the DAC?

many answers lie here...

It’s one, of many great places to learn digital.

This man performed fantastic DAC1 mods before coming out with his own line of digital playback.

http://empiricalaudio.com/ 

Ahhhh… That synchromesh looks like what I thought happened inside of the DACs already.

Jitter through the data stream is still problematic…Not all DAC’s are immune to this incoming jitter, and a vast majority are not…

Is there a list of which are immune?(If so that would help)

What is the budget?  There is a 2K price differential between the Topping and and Yggdrasil.
  Transports make a difference—they don’t all sound the same—but the DAC is more important.  If the system as a whole is low on resolution, then the NAK CD tray, if it has a digital out, can suffice.  Same with cables-one step above standard interconnects is probably all that is required before diminishing returns sets in.
  If otoh, the system can detect subtle differences between components, get back to us with a budget

@holmz,
If playing from your spinning disc is the requirement, you'll need a transport or DVD player with a digital output(USB, BNC, dig coax, etc).  All DACs don't have the same complement of inputs, so be sure of compatibility.

SQ of DACs can vary quite widely from input-to-input. Some designers focus their design energy and invest in better parts for one or the other; it's worth considering user's experiences for the particular DAC you're getting. e.g. USB a decade ago was almost always noisier vs. coax & AES/EBU, but with much focus on improving USB due to it's popularity, newer designs have often overcome the concern.  

While Monoprice and other bargain cables can do the job, the impact of cable choice varies widely from system-to-system and is more distinguishable on more resolving gear. Advice from posters with no system posted or other similar context and explanation as to what they've heard for comparison, should be discounted accordingly. 

One huge question for you, is how tied in are you to your silver discs? Many of us have reported improved SQ playing ripped files from a NAS that sends the files to your dac through a network player/streamer. This is a whole convo in itself, but I would suggest considering using any computer drive to rip discs to a NAS.

If your new  "Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable" means it's a Roon Ready endpoint device, then it can be your network streamer/player. Just connect it via ethernet cable to your network. Run Roon Core(the main Roon software) on 1) An Intel NUC if you're into some DIY-ish assembly 2) Small Green Computer/Sonore Sonic Orbiter 3) Roon Nucleus or 4) Mac or PC. Use any phone or tablet as a remote.
Roon is a game changing experience. I'd suggest this for a good visual on using Roon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe61rmLKc1E
and this if you're unclear on the 3 elements of Roon(Core/Endpoint/Remote) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgoXpMFxi5g
Cheers,
Spencer 

@jasonbourne52
This forum is generally assumed to be for those who want to intelligently discuss making their audio systems better. Certainly the OP is of that mindset.  The information you shared just isn’t remotely true in any modestly high performing system.

Of course, everything is budget and system dependent. However, I could swap digital cables for you in my system (and you could even pick which cables) and you would very clearly and immediately understand that they sound different - even in a blind A/B test.

I could also swap out my good streamer for a Bluesound node and you would clearly and immediately hear that they sound different - even though my DAC is supposedly “immune” to jitter. I get that your experience may not support what I’ve stated above - in which case, you’re missing out.  But, you’re also misleading others who are in search for something better.  Unless you’re intentionally trolling - certainly a possibility - but then you’re a busy troll here.  

To the OP - lots of other information on these forums (in this thread and others) to help you.

Peace, 

 

There is a lot of misinformation here the quality of the data stream really matters and can totally affect the sound quality of the dac all dacs are sensitive to jitter recllocking can help but digital noise can not be reclocked out.

This is one of the reasons pcs make poor tramsports

Listen to a dedicated server from auralac,aurrender innous or 432evo and you will hear a dramatic improvement in your digital playback.

We have tested this for he last 20 years with many top dacs from naim, Nad,t+a,bricasti,amr, remiyo, m2tech,meitner, Emm labs and many others

To date we have tested most of the leading streamers and servers

Including Cambridge, auralic,naim, lumin,aurender,Sotm, laufer, innous 432evo, baetis, and others

In digital everything matters

When it is right a high end digital rig can even rival a top end vinyl setup

DAVE AND TROY
audio intellect Nj
US Importer 432evo music servers

Typical if you can't measure it differences can't exist arguments. And so, recently placed audiophile network switch between router and NAS, server. Sound quality decreased, router with lps feeding NAS and server superior. Rest of network chain post server optimized. Amir over at ASR recently measured audiophile network switches, virtually no measured performance difference. The assumption then is audiophile switches should sound the exact same as generic switch or no switch.
I'm not here to argue my particular audiophile switch or any audiophile switch will improve sound quality in my system. My results just the opposite, and my results are replicated by some other reviewers of various audiophile switches. I also see other reviewers agnostic and enthusiastic in regard to these switches.

So, I have no skin in the game at this point, highly skeptical. And yet, I heard a difference in sound quality. Would measurements predict this? As for placebo or confirmation bias, I certainly wanted this switch to be effective, I spent a fair amount of money, I'd heard the theoretical arguments as to their effectiveness, and yet I heard what I heard. Can the measurement brigade answer for this? Am I delusional in hearing a decrease in sound quality with switch, or am I delusional in hearing better sound quality with router feed? 

Some of the measurement brigade may believe I or all of us cannot listen devoid of some measure of delusion, don't trust your senses which only betray, listen to the measurements. Expecting delivery of my highly specialized listening robot any day now, he/she will report sound quality evaluation that I can regard as objective truth.

Everything affect digital. Home power is a HUGE issue.  You can't make a blanket statement about jitter or clocks not mattering.  They do in most cases, but not all as long as the DAC/streamer/renderer is designed properly to begin with.  That's going to be costly as I am finding out in my own search for a new DAC that I'm going through now.  

Budget is the most important thing.  There is some good digital at all price points. The thing is that you have to figure out what compromises you can handle adn what's most important to you.

As for Steve Nuggent and his DAC's and Synchro-mesh etc... he makes GREAT products.  Steve is also a GREAT person.  I owned his DAC and loved it and I have a Synchro-Mesh that I no longer need, but when I used it, it helped everything.  Holmz, you know how to get in touch with me.  Please reach out if you would like to and we can 'talk'.  Digital comes down to what flavor you like (for the most part).  that goes for all price ranges based on what I've beee auditioning. 

The only explanation I can offer that will be from a subjective viewpoint, is that when experiencing certain cable types within the System there were presentations that were immediately recognized as being able to be a detractor and not an attractor.
From recollection the most short lived cable used in a trial was a Silver Wired Cable.
In contrast a Silver Wired Din > RCA Phono Cable has been in use for more than Three Years, and has only very recently been changed, this cable has been compared to approx' Six cables over this period, that have been made up of varying purchase values.
The retained Silver Wire Cable proved to be a satisfactory cable throughout the usage period.
Its replacement is a PC Triple C Wire Cable.  

Just to add to what others have said, streamers/digital sources all sound different. I am on my third streamer, the other two are okay, this one is better, all through the same DAC. I will keep looking. I have one of those Nakamichi 5 CD changers and put it in my main rig once. It has no digital out, so you get the digital source and DAC in one. Almost unlistenable compared to streamed versions of of the same ripped CD's through a streamer. Anything you do will be an upgrade there. I have gone completely digital with all my CD's ripped on a NAS, no plans to go back to a CD player, however I understand why some folks like/want them. But understand, even if you are using an external DAC, the digital stream coming out of the CD player can affect the sound like any streamer can. Everything matters if you have the ears to hear it.

The Ygg is a good choice, I have a Gumby and am very happy with it.

Disregarding for the moment the issue of transport and cable, there's quite a price differential between the two DACs you mention in the original post.  I'd recommend you take a hard look at the Gustard X26 Pro.

What is the budget?  There is a 2K price differential between the Topping and and Yggdrasil.
…
  If otoh, the system can detect subtle differences between components, get back to us with a budget

Well I picked those two as what I am looking at.

• The 10k$ Merging+NADAC is beyond what I would be comfortable budgeting
  
• And I would rather not spend anything if it is a flaw endeavour… so if it requires 20k$ to get something as good as vinyl, I would skip it, and just go buy some vinyl, and some bottles of Cab/Pinot/etc/…
  

One huge question for you, is how tied in are you to your silver discs? Many of us have reported improved SQ playing ripped files from a NAS that sends the files to your dac through a network player/streamer. This is a whole convo in itself, but I would suggest considering using any computer drive to rip discs to a NAS. 

• Bingo. I need them in a car, and I like having them rather than a download.
  
• If all the transports are flawed, then maybe I should just chuck a car audio CD player into the system to play physical CD, and go NAS for the good stuff? The car CD player I have is supposedly pretty good for the CD transport and DAC end.
  

If your new "Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable" means it's a Roon Ready endpoint device, then it can be your network streamer/player. Just connect it via ethernet cable to your network. Run Roon Core(the main Roon software) on 1) An Intel NUC if you're into some DIY-ish assembly 2) Small Green Computer/Sonore Sonic Orbiter 3) Roon Nucleus or 4) Mac or PC.

• I am already running a NUC for the NetFlix streamer, and another for Linux so I am familiar with them. (& thanks for the links - I’ll give them a whirl)
  
• I guess I come out of the NUC on one of the HMDI ports? And into the HT-AVR/Pre?
  

Thanks @dabel@ctsooner  Thanks- I’ll PMThanks all

asonbourne521,067 posts09-26-2021 12:43amI will get a lot of flak for my post! But hey, those are the facts of life kids!

I'm sure you meant "flac" LOL

One problem (among many) is the unrecognized...né oblivious...handicap of REFERENCE. Mostly the lack of....

Find a local audiophile or dealer who has achieved "something" with digital and learn from them.

How to get into high end digital?

Excellent advice:
" Find a local audiophile or dealer who has achieved "something" with digital and learn from them."

Great quote:   "We are influenced by our past."

Trash the Nak. I have auditioned the Nak Music Bank, years ago. Among worst sounding CDP`s I have ever heard. By comparison, a Rotel RCD 970, and a NAD 515, smoked it.

I had a top of the line  Nakamichi CD player. I put it into my system last year for about 30 seconds, unplugged it, took it upstairs and threw it in the trash. Literally. I payed thousands for it. 
Bit streams in the digital end are as important as turntable /cartridge. The DAC roughly analogous to the Phonostage.

The Schiit Yggi is an excellent budget DAC. Don’t even consider something of lessor quality for your budget. Look to Aurender to find a good Streamer. You want to put as much money as you can into both. 

Based on a lot of listening and testing with friends and by myself, i have found that getting the best source is more important than getting the best DAC.  Figure your budget and then you can find out which DAC and server play best together.  There are so many very good options for each that are 'affordable'.  The higher you get in a DAC (cost), the fewer compromises it should have.  that's not always the case, but it's a general starting point.  I also have found out that cost isn't the be all end all for DAC's.  Codex is still a GREAT option for an under 2k DAC.  It's actually pretty amazing, but most aren't even talking about it as it's an older DAC now, but Ayre Ariel at Ayre designed it and made it to be a DAC that would go against the 5k DAC's.  They actually cost Ayre a ton of money to make.

Then you have a ton of DAC's by solo shops. Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio is another solo shop and what a shop it is.  He is as smart digitally as anyone I have ever met and spoken to.  There are some others who folks discuss on the boards.   

Find a local audiophile or dealer who has achieved "something" with digital and learn from them.

Good one…

• There are no dealers near by.
  
• The one that I am most familiar with (In SoCal) has the Merging+.
  

https://nadac.merging.com/product/merging-player

Hence I am here… and going slowly trying to come up with a sensible plan.

Pure digital is totally accurate but not everyone's cup of tea. We are influenced by our past


Not true nothing in audio is totally accurate. Solid state has distortion also, it's just not very pleasant to the ears.

I'm sure by now we all understand that "Digital is all zeros and ones".

As we were advised all those years ago, "oils ain't oils".

Getting those bits off the medium and into a perfect electrical stream without contamination is the real issue and it ain't necessarily that easy to achieve.

Converting an electrical signal to optical and then back to optical just adds additional complexity that doesn't seem to have any benefits. 

The op asked how to get into digital. Easy USB. Maybe a USB isolator. That eliminates virtually every issue no matter what audiophiles may convince themselves of.

Does this infer a NAS playing/buffering into DAC?
Or
Does it also infer some CD player going in in real-time?

I would say abandon the CD player.  Rip everything to FLAC or get digital copies online of the albums you want.
Do you have an old laptop?  If so, use that as your music server.  Buy a large external hard drive and fill it with music.
The Topping D90 is fine.  It is a solid Delta Sigma DAC and doesn't come with the R2R baggage of the Schiit Yiggy.
I replaced all my CDs with DSD, FLAC, and ALAC files over the last few years.  I used my old work ThinkPad T430 to rip the CDs and now use it as my music server.  I send the music files by USB output to a now discontinued SMSL M8 DAC.  If I were shopping for DACs now the D90 would be on my short list.

One the laptop, in Windows 10, I have networked the drive.  I use Foobar2000 as my media player on the laptop and the Foobar2000 Controller app on my phone as a remote control.

The convenience of having all music so easily available to play anytime.  Browse the files using the controller app on my phone and play from anywhere in the house.

The OP asked into HIGH END digital... Not your basic run of the mill digital.

I think I am the OP ;)

Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5, USB Audio Digital Converter. Eat your heart out...

How's that for a USB isolator!

Sorry holmz, I had to

Exhausting...

I am not exhausted yet… (Thanks)

OK so it looks like the MUC send the audio out of the USB?
And would sit between a NUC and a DAC?

Not really trying to be contentious however a cheap DAC sounds like a cheap DAC, a cheap CD player sounds like a cheap CD player, a cheap turntable sounds like a cheap turntable. Unfortunately some expensive ones do too? But not all. 

Not really trying to be contentious however a cheap DAC sounds like a cheap DAC, a cheap CD player sounds like a cheap CD player, a cheap turntable sounds like a cheap turntable. Unfortunately some expensive ones do too? But not all.

OK then… which cheap ones sound expensive?

So far I have a list which includes:

• Topping
  
• Schitt Yggdrasil 
  
• Khadas 2 Tone Pro Dac
  
• Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5
  
• Gustard X26 Pro
  

But if I have to spend 20kilobucks, then I am pretty much out… and I’ll just use an iPad.
I have been hearing since the 80s that CDs/digital is God’s gift… but then 40 years on, it is stuff like, “Well how can a CD compare to a 5-10k$+ vinyl setup.” 

And then half my friends and workmates swear by Sonos, which I do not really see much benefit in… other than ease of setup.

doesn't come with the R2R baggage of the Schiit Yiggy.

And I thought that R2R sounded like a good solution?

Have been all digital this last 15 years, and my current thinking is that for digital, unlike many of the views expressed earlier, everything mattters.

Simplisticly put, instead of a continuous stream (analog) the music is chopped up (sampled) and then recombined to simulate the original analog stream.  Theoretically, since the sampling is so quick, the ear cannot detect the difference.  What the ear does detect, however, are the inaccuracies in the process.  That is jitter.  Reducing jitter is what it's about.

The recompiling is timed by a clock which emits a 'ping' every fraction of a second. This ping corresponds to a marker embedded during the sampling process in the signal.  The more this is in sync, the less jitter, the purer the signal.  

So all digital devices have a 'clock'.  The better the clock the better your music will sound.  But like everything, there is no magic bullet here. If you feed in garbage, even though the very good quality clock you might have struggles valiantly, it can improve the signal only partially.  So you have to clean up the signal as much as possible before it hits the final clock prior to conversion back to analog. 

This means digital devices need much of the same treatment as analog:

Good powerGood components
Good component support/footersGood cabling
Hopefully, this argument has indicated that timing (reduced jitter) is all important in digital systems. 
And finally, here is the good news for those of you who have managed to get through all of the above:  After all this, you can STILL get the signal reclocked and cleaned up hugely by a relatively new device...the audiophile switch.  The reclocking in them is far more accurate than the clock in most DAC's.   They work even better in a cascade (series) as each stage cleans up the signal more.  Price for these switches vary from usd 700/- to many thousands. 

My system comprises router/NAS > streamer > dac with 3 audiophile switches in series prior to the streamer. The addition of each streamer marked an large order of improvement. 

Most audiophile switches come with the capability of using fibre optic (which can be immune to electrical effects) instead of copper wire, but that's another story.  

So, once you got the basics sorted, i.e. storage device, streamer and dac, to get to serious high end sound you should clean up the signal more with audiophile switches.  This will help no matter how high end the clock in your final digital component, the dac, is. 

The never ending story here is using external clocks!  These are accurate to atomic standards and there is a whole cult built up around implementing them.  My first one arrives in a couple of weeks!

Best wishes, and hope this diatribe has been of use.  I have avoided talking about branded components to avoid the appearance of shilling.  My 2 cents.

There's a reason the Denafrips Ares 2 DAC is so widely praised by reviewers and users alike......It's Wonderful and Musical and is compared to DACs that cost 2 or 3 times the price of the Ares 2.  It's definitely a DAC you should have on your list.

@pindac : a coax digital cable should be no less than 1.5 meters in length to avoid reflections.

Thanks @buddyboy1 that sounds similar to the Yggdrasil with the R2R.
@jasonbourne52 what is the impedance of coax? I would think if it is 50 or 75 ohms, then the VSWR would be low?

If I did the maths right then the speed-o-light/44.1kS/sec is ~6800 meters between samples.
@aubreybobb I appreciate you taking the time to write it up, but using 3 switches seems like it is like almost like a holy Trinity. And no one has been able to tell me how feet, power cords, and magnetic platters can affect bits… so I am unsure whether this is measurable?