Looking forward to that @pindac
How to get into high end digital? (Feeding a DAC)
I am looking primarily at the Schitt Yggdrasil or the Topping D90.
Some example of what is commonly done would be great.
The system currently consists of:
I also have a Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable, on the way… So that maybe does some of this for me as well?
But to be totally honest, the digital side is a bit of mystery to me.
I have always thought we plug in a CD player and the signal comes out. (Maybe with some nuance in DACs, clock jitter, and filtering to separate the higher end from the lower end products.)
- How does one feed those?
- I am assuming any sort of CD transport would output the bit stream?
- or… they get saved to file and played from some media player into the DACs.
Some example of what is commonly done would be great.
The system currently consists of:
- TT —> Audio Research PH2
- An old Nakamichi 5 disk CD player
- TV
- Audible Illusions line stage (New tunes on the way, but it still sound OK to me with the old tube in it)
- Prima Luna (with GoldenLion and TS KT-120 one the way… and I might I’ll get the VTL mono blocks 100w/ch serviced)
- Vandy 2C and Vandy sub
I also have a Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable, on the way… So that maybe does some of this for me as well?
But to be totally honest, the digital side is a bit of mystery to me.
I have always thought we plug in a CD player and the signal comes out. (Maybe with some nuance in DACs, clock jitter, and filtering to separate the higher end from the lower end products.)
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The OP finally gave us a budget—apparently up to 10K—after multiple requests to do so in the past week. He wants his music “not to sound like it came from a CD player”. He has a tt from Audio Research. I have no idea what that costs, but I haven’t seen AR equipment at WalMart recently. He is looking at DACs—the most important determinant of digital sound—that range from 8% to 25% of his total budget, and probably less than his tt. He has now decided that an AVR will meet his needs. IMO he should keep buying lps from Barnes and Noble that cost $50 each and usually are digital files that have been embedded in a slab of petroleum. Although I feel like this is an exercise in futility, I will share what I do. I have a DAC3 from Bryston. I use a Melco N100 as a NAS/Player. I rip my CDs with a Melco 100 ripper/disc transport. The music sounds the same to me whether played from the transport or the N100. It is simply the best sound that I have ever had, much more detailed and open than using my Oppo 105 or a Sony 5100 as a transport into the same DAC. The Melco/DAC combo can probably be had for 6K. Another $5 for a decent app controls the whole thing from a phone or tablet and allows Tidal/Qobuz integration and Internet Radio. All that ask from the OP is that before he issues some proclamation on the merits of digital vs analog is that he not compare apples to oranges. Don’t compare your Neiman Marcus analog rig to a Costco digital setup. Otherwise, good luck |
@holmz Your Thread Title and OP make it very clear that you are inquiring and looking to have a input to help improve your understanding of the requirements. If that is being shown as difficult to embrace by a contributor, it is not really something to be concerned about. A more compatible Mentor will show up. |
@holmzMaybe there is some light in there? (As it looks like my near term solution is close to what he/she is doing.)
I will share what I do. I have a DAC3 from Bryston. I use a Melco N100 as a NAS/Player. I rip my CDs with a Melco 100 ripper/disc transport. The music sounds the same to me whether played from the transport or the N100. It is simply the best sound that I have ever had, much more detailed and open than using my Oppo 105 or a Sony 5100 as a transport into the same DAC. The Melco/DAC combo can probably be had for 6K. Another $5 for a decent app controls the whole thing from a phone or tablet and allows Tidal/Qobuz integration and Internet Radio. He has a tt from Audio Research. I have no idea what that costs, but I haven’t seen AR equipment at WalMart recently.The phonostage is the AR. The TT is a SOTA, which is sorta like a CD transport, and the phono stage is akin to what a DAC is doing. Well I don’t often shop at Walmart, but I suspect you are correct. All that ask from the OP is that before he issues some proclamation on the merits of digital vs analog is that he not compare apples to oranges. Don’t compare your Neiman Marcus analog rig to a Costco digital setup. Otherwise, good luckYou’re reading into this as being some attack on your digital system. But it is not about you. Obviously I am comparing the Bestbuy CD player to the analogue. Those are the two sources in the living room so there is not a lot else to A/B against each other. |
@holmzn In high end audio, stand alone DACs typically perform significantly better than a DAC that is bundles with an preamp/amp. You have to go up the $ chain to get a inbuilt DAC to sound as good as a standalone such as a Hegel. Often built-in DACs are made to a cost point and convenience rather than to emphasize performance, therefore not designed to compete with stand alone DACs. I suspect your AVR built-in DAC will not be to the level of even a Yggy, and maybe your insistence on using the AVR's DAC may seem opposite to some as a step backwards to box store sound. But if you are satisfied with the results, great for you! - you saved $. 5 years ago, I decided to do in-depth audio component research on building my first high end analog+digital system. Seeing you're on hold until you evaluate the AVR sonics, I'll also wait on product suggestions. BTW $10k is a generous budget relative to your system, you can easily spend less to achieve good sonic results. |
I have read all of this but have a question. I have all my cds stored FLAC on my Synology NAS. I stream music through SONOS through the house being happy with the general outcome. But for my serious listening I feed to a SONOS Connect to my main stereo. The feed goes to my Bryston dac, then to my Cronus Magnum. Am I missing anything here? How can I make this set up better? |
OP glad to see you are setting in on something amongst all these what I will call various responses. Sign up for Roon after you rip and get the AVR setup. If you are going to be using the coax or optical out will really limit your range on an external DAC. No high res I believe. Need usb. My suggestion would Play with before you do anything and see if you like Roon. If you do new DAC unless your Avr is serious hi end then a new DAC would be great. Feed it back to avr to amp via analog pass through if it has it. This works great and you can find the right DAC. For your budget it’s wide open. Good luck. |
I have read all of this but have a question. I have all my cds stored FLAC on my Synology NAS. I stream music through SONOS through the house being happy with the general outcome. But for my serious listening I feed to a SONOS Connect to my main stereo. The feed goes to my Bryston dac, then to my Cronus Magnum. Am I missing anything here? How can I make this set up better?So the Snology would be like my NUC?The Sonos like rather Roon? And the DACS gets the optical from the Sonos, where I amight do it from the AVR? @lbarbishIf it is a serious question, then it seems like is similar. Or is it sarcastic? Or do the Sonos output into the DAC, do some known jitterbug dance? |
I understand the Chord up sampler is a real improvement to the transport and DAC arrangement. I’d do that myself if I had the extra cash flow available. https://www.moon-audio.com/chord-hugo-m-scaler.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImqee88Wv8wIVxwiICR0YhwnWEAAYAS... |
I’m selling my Schiit ygg . Feed it from your computer with USB, get that new card installed 200 bucks . Done deal. Hit me up if you’re interested. I spent 1200 bucks taking the USB out of the picture , it was a tiny improvement. The R2R dac doesn’t respond that well too streaming input. they had the right idea with that new card. |
The deeper you dig,the bigger the whole.Go simple ....Amen bro. @donniewn I’ll see if the AVR has an optical out, as the R2R sound (to my mind) a good way to go. With Roon - It looks like maybe I should be do FLAC?Went to download XLD (or XLC) and it gave an “unsigned certificate” so I’ll keep looking at an OSX way… Or I’ll get (or find) a CD reader for the NUC. |
If your new "Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable" means it's a Roon Ready endpoint device, then it can be your network streamer/player. Just connect it via ethernet cable to your network.This. IMO you may be focusing too much on the DAC at this point. Your "Home Theatre pre" may already have a decent embedded DAC chip. Decent enough to get started, anyway. If it's "Roon Ready" then presumably it also has RJ45 ethernet input. So you might want to be asking how to get Roon working (because it's not quite as simple as just plugging in a cable). For that, Google is your friend. Basically, you'll need to: * subscribe to Roon (annual or lifetime fee) * subscribe to a streaming service such as Tidal or Qobuz * download and install Roon Core on a NUC, Mac mini, or other computer * download and install at least one Roon Remote controller app onto an iPhone, iPad, laptop, or other wireless device * follow online instructions to "enable" one or more endpoints and point your controller(s) to the Core Once you set up Roon, you can put away your CDs and CD player if you like, because nearly all the world's music will be at your fingertips. Chances are, Tidal/Qobuz can stream versions of all (or nearly all) your CDs , possibly at better-than-CD quality. The Roon software includes digital signal processing functions, including upsampling. Once you have Roon working, then you can think about upgrades to individual components (possibly including the DAC) if you think you need them. For that, the Roon Community forum can be very helpful. If you don't want to commit to Roon at this point, you might want to consider above suggestions to get a Bluesound device (Node or Vault). The Node (and I think the Vault too) can be a Roon-Ready endpoint, if you want to get into that later. Meanwhile, it also can support services like Tidal directly (without Roon). It has a built in DAC chip, volume control, and companion software app for a laptop/smartphone. Your Roon-ready pre may even be able to support streaming services without Roon and without Bluesound (if not directly via the preamp, then via your TV). An even simpler way to get at streaming content is to subscribe to a streaming service (Tidal/Qobuz/AppleMusic etc), put the companion app on a smartphone, and plug in a high quality pair of headphones. If you decide you like the streaming service, you later can use an iPhone as a Roon-Ready endpoint (using a lightning-to-USB interface to connect it to your AVR/preamp.) In sum: Get the streaming services working first, preferably using the gear you already have. If you decide you like the content and functionality (compared to CDs or vinyl) then you can start thinking about upgrades. |
The best sound you’re going to get out of the SCHIIT Yagg is USB from your computer , running Audirvana or Roon . I suppose using a streamer would be OK also. If it has good sounding output. I used optical also it sounded good but I also was re-clocking with M2tech And I don’t think it’s worth the money with that $200 card. |
XLD works great on Mac. Flac and AIFF are both fine. WAV does too but you will lose metadata when ripping (which you can add back, but extra steps. @donniewn why suggesting that the Yggy USB will sound best from a computer? IMHE, USB-optimized DACs like Gumby & Yggy sound better with USB from a good streamer/renderer. Audirvana+ is a barely supported hobby, and updates when they happen can be a nightmare. After 4 years of coping, I bailed and couldn't be happier about doing. Roon works SO much better and brings a far better experience. Cheers, Spencer |
Have you heard the new usb card? I’ve read a lot of good reviews on it . I think it’s probably comparable. Whatever suits your ears is what’s best. Not everybody has a streamer. Why are you done with Audirvana ? I know it doesn’t stream DSD very well but I sure love the interface better than Roon . I am running Twonkie to stream the DSD. It’s working pretty good. No issues so far |
@donniewn IME, even with a better USB card, a standard computer running iOS or Windows has so many processes running unrelated to optimizing audio. They also require more power (aka more noise). If you run linux stripped down to single purpose and a great linear power supply, that might be close to performance to a good renderer/streamer, but all that trouble is easily overcome with a purpose-built device...no extra processes, lower cleaner power, and ideally optical isolation. YMMV. IME, Audirvana+ updates corrupted my library and required finding hidden files and reinstallation on more than one occasion to get back up to speed. Damien helped when he got around to it, but he was too busy to help promptly and (at least at the time) was a one man show. I also find the multi-device experience and the discoverable links embedded throughout Roon to provide way more FUN! Cheers, Spencer |
"Dont believe the pundits saying that spending ever more on a transport gives "better" sound quality. Not true! Digital is NOT like Analog! The same thing applies to cables. Cheap here works just as well as expensive. A $10 Monoprice digital cable is indistinguishable from a three or four figure cable - regardless of what the "golden ears" crowd claims."............................. .Boy you sure do talk alot of BS..I find normally when one post like this they simply dont have the funds to aquire a system that is reveiling enough to hear differences for better or worse |
@missioncoonery do you mean me? Boy you sure do talk alot of BSUsually my BS is offered sarcastically, which many say, “is the lowest form of humour.” I generally find the idea of cables somewhat snake oil laden, and multiple stereophile routers could be in that list. But proof they work would be nice to see. I need to find my CD s transport for the NUC later today as it is supposed to rain. Before that rain starts, I should do my outside work. |
Mình mới đọc topic này https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-to-get-into-high-end-digital-feeding-a-dac?utm_source=sen... thấy có ý kiến dùng audio swich làm tăng chất lương nhạc nhưng mình không rành lắm, trích lên đây để các bác cùng tìm hiểu. |
@sevestan Use yer Nak till she starts smoking then replace W/ any iof various $10-$15 cd players available at local Goodwill…yer DAC is fine! I am likely to agree. Once I replaced the store bought RCAs with some other interconnects it is sounding nice again. So some slow progress is happening. I will start moving over CDs to FLAC when I get the time. |
"How does one feed a DAC?" You need a digital source. A cheap CD digital out or $100 worth of single board network player are much better than any stinking computer. If you need CDs in a car you are in trouble, new ones don't have CD players. Rip your CDs and play the files, it's much more convenient. Cars have had USB-A's for over 10 years. |
If you need CDs in a car you are in trouble, new ones don't have CD players. My truck is a 1993, and my car is a sports car with no radio. The truck is the main vehicle. There is also no digital radio or phone service once we get 20 miles out o town. The Truck does have a compliment of McIntosh and Nakamichi, but the noise is pretty astounding, so it is not very high SINAD. The tracking, on the shipping, indicates that my AVR has arrived, and I will convert a stack of CDs to FLAC for Roon on a NUC… |
OK, It has been about a 9 month gestation, so here is the update. I am playing the same LP from Spotify as I have on Vinyl, and it is well into the acceptable range. It is a bit of a negative in terms of noise floor on other sources, so I’ll try replacing the SMPS with an LPS. |