How to get into high end digital? (Feeding a DAC)
You can use your Nakamichi's coax digital output into the DAC via a Monoprice digital cable. There is only a red and a white RCA, and either it or the RCAs have tinny sound out of the RHS channel. Hence no coax digital out (it is a last millennium unit). ... Any CD/DVD player can serve as a transport. No need to spend big bucks! They all output the same data stream! Jitter is a non-issue with modern DACs. No need for a separate - and expensive - clock! Jitter in even cheap CD/DVD players is inaudible. Even if you were wrong, then if the DAC buffers the samples, so we should end with jitter free output after the DAC?? (Right?) Why Schiit or Topping? For less than $300 you can buy a Khadas 2 Tone Pro Dac that measures and sounds as good as any four-figure DAC! I own the earlier model, the KTB. I dunno… If we trust specs, then they are demonstrably good… But I’ll look at that Khadas 2. Thanks! |
many answers lie here... Ahhhh… That synchromesh looks like what I thought happened inside of the DACs already. Jitter through the data stream is still problematic…Not all DAC’s are immune to this incoming jitter, and a vast majority are not…Is there a list of which are immune?(If so that would help) |
What is the budget? There is a 2K price differential between the Topping and and Yggdrasil. Well I picked those two as what I am looking at.
One huge question for you, is how tied in are you to your silver discs? Many of us have reported improved SQ playing ripped files from a NAS that sends the files to your dac through a network player/streamer. This is a whole convo in itself, but I would suggest considering using any computer drive to rip discs to a NAS.
If your new "Home Theatre pre, which is Roon capable" means it's a Roon Ready endpoint device, then it can be your network streamer/player. Just connect it via ethernet cable to your network. Run Roon Core(the main Roon software) on 1) An Intel NUC if you're into some DIY-ish assembly 2) Small Green Computer/Sonore Sonic Orbiter 3) Roon Nucleus or 4) Mac or PC.
Thanks @dabel@ctsooner Thanks- I’ll PMThanks all |
Find a local audiophile or dealer who has achieved "something" with digital and learn from them. Good one…
Hence I am here… and going slowly trying to come up with a sensible plan. |
Thanks @buddyboy1 that sounds similar to the Yggdrasil with the R2R. @jasonbourne52 what is the impedance of coax? I would think if it is 50 or 75 ohms, then the VSWR would be low? If I did the maths right then the speed-o-light/44.1kS/sec is ~6800 meters between samples. @aubreybobb I appreciate you taking the time to write it up, but using 3 switches seems like it is like almost like a holy Trinity. And no one has been able to tell me how feet, power cords, and magnetic platters can affect bits… so I am unsure whether this is measurable? |
The OP asked into HIGH END digital... Not your basic run of the mill digital. I think I am the OP ;) Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5, USB Audio Digital Converter. Eat your heart out... I am not exhausted yet… (Thanks) OK so it looks like the MUC send the audio out of the USB? And would sit between a NUC and a DAC? |
Pure digital is totally accurate but not everyone's cup of tea. We are influenced by our past.If I can measure the output and compare it to the input and see that it more true than comparing that stream to the Vinyl, then I can convince myself. I may not like it, but I am pretty much a “by the numbers fellow”. And I would then likely try and understand why I like the worse one better. I know that is the case comparing my VTLs to the Haus-Boss’s NAD amp. The VTLS have a huge amount of IMD. The NAD was more faithful to the input. |
Not really trying to be contentious however a cheap DAC sounds like a cheap DAC, a cheap CD player sounds like a cheap CD player, a cheap turntable sounds like a cheap turntable. Unfortunately some expensive ones do too? But not all.OK then… which cheap ones sound expensive? So far I have a list which includes:
I have been hearing since the 80s that CDs/digital is God’s gift… but then 40 years on, it is stuff like, “Well how can a CD compare to a 5-10k$+ vinyl setup.” And then half my friends and workmates swear by Sonos, which I do not really see much benefit in… other than ease of setup. doesn't come with the R2R baggage of the Schiit Yiggy.And I thought that R2R sounded like a good solution? |
I guess I should have expanded a bit on the baggage.Thanks @trevalinjack Probably liking Neil Gaimon has coloured the Yggdrasil to be worth a left n_t or at least a left eye… which are somewhat similar to an extent. OPI am less stressed than usual… (but it does seems < easy) ;) |
@audiotroy There is a lot of misinformation here the quality of the data stream really matters and can totally affect the sound quality of the dac all dacs are sensitive to jitter recllocking can help but digital noise can not be reclocked out.What exactly is digital noise? I see this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dac-vs-cd-player-shootout-measurements.10... which seemed to above 20kHz, but it would not help anything. OP you are getting advice from jasonbourne and his ilk which I suggest you completely disregard if you are after 'high end digital' That poor horse has been beaten to death.I try to appreciate all perspectives. And appreciate them more with soom back up evidence. And I would still like to know how and what people that design cable get good, or bad, cables from a scientific perspective. Not everyone is J.C Maxwell, or others, but the physics is not different for different people… It is universal. You also mentioned something about measurements. If you are not familiar with digital then ignore the technical side and use your ears. Somebody gave the impression that R2R is baggage which is not true. Don't worry about the architecture just how it sounds. I have an ancient baggage machine, a Wadia 15 that is so full of baggage that it can only play redbook, but outplays my Bryston DAC even when the latter is playing hi-res. True story. The measurementalists frown when I explain that I prefer listening to ... music, not so much interested in how sine waves measure or sound.I basically do not want an embarrassing CD play and disappointing experience. Currently I was not sure whether the old CD player or the RCAs had the blown channel… but I put the AQ Emerald interconnects on and it sounded OK with “The Violent Femmes” (Which are often recroded poorly), and “Social Diostortion” wasn’t bad.(So in my case the 1M AQ interconnects were better than the 5M store bought ones, which are obviously $hit-Haus.) Then I put on some Vivaldi, and it is front to back and side to side… everything laid out.Then the Doug McLeod LIve the Europe…Both sounded pretty awesome. But I am also trained and educated in science, so I have a hard time believing in the pure magic. When the McLeod song comes on, I do not want to think about measurements… and it again brought a tear to my eye. (Which is a better tear than those form looking at the empty wallet) If the two sources sound different , then they must also be producing different signals versus time. This is what graphs, measurements, and solid engineering is for. Whether it's analogue or digital the source matters a lot and it's importance should not be underestimated. I hear you. I think that the speakers matter more, and I put the source at #2… but I agree. The recommendation to visit a few dealers is solid advice and is worth heeding.I used to live close to many good shops, or close enough to get there in an hour or three. Now I am literally more than a day’s drive away, assuming that people drive 1000 mi in a day… Hence I try to prefilter ideas and opinions into some plan. It is probably similar to Covid shopping for many others in area which are less fortunate (i.e. more sparsely populated) Anyhow I played a bit of “Immortal Technique” (Mistakes), and the “Eurasure” CD, and it all seems pretty good. Maybe the rest of the chain of gear is not up to scratch. But I will spend some time in (what I believe) is a decent shop in Perth… where I am flying to in 3–4 weeks. i dunno… |
@holmz Well I was not thinking much of budget, but less than 10k. But high-end to me would be something that sounds good and does not sound like it is obviously coming from a CD player. A CD player has both a transport and DAC built in. In high-end audio, for best performance it is generally better to separate the functions to better isolate components from vibrations and electrical noise but costs more in casework and additional cables. Also, usually a DAC+transport is significantly sonically better than a CD player unless you spend considerable $ for a higher quality player. For greater flexibility (upgrades), better performance, and lower cost, most high-end digital systems have a stand alone DAC vs a CD player. Since the AVR has the Roon End-Point and DAC built in, I will try that first. Plus it has some built in room correction, so maybe that will help sound in terms of bass and EQ, without destroying imaging? I’ll see I guess. |
Forget all that stuff. Pitch it all out and get a set of the Dutch & Dutch 8c. Not only are these loudspeakers amplified, they have built-in DAC and DSP EQ. All you need are them and a digital source like a laptop, an iPad or even just your cell phone with Roon.This sounds like the question I either asked, or was thinking… which was, “What about a Lyngdorf TDAI 1120 ?”. The Dutch-n-Dutch sounds even easier. I suppose it would be appreopriateto ask if we should go halves? ;) Wireworld makes nice fiber optic cables made from glass.Well We’ve been to the Corning museum in 2018. Whether is It glass or plastic, the physics is the same over the short haul. I am skeptical that one can “hear” glass as being more transparent. JasonBourne says..‘The same thing applies to cables. Cheap here works just as well as expensive. A $10 Monoprice digital cable is indistinguishable from a three or four figure <digit (sic)> cable - regardless of what the "golden ears" crowd claims.’Well 3 or 4 digits is most of the way to a fist, which seemed like it was his point. And I doubt that the manufactures are not using 2000 $/foot cables inside of their gear. Fiber optic provides complete isolation from the noise in the power supply of the sending unit. Coax does not. Galvanic and isolation transformers still pass noise through the ground.Ok so we are not talking about digit noise as in the bits are getting bit error rates > 0, but traditional analogue circuit noise being passed left to right through the signal chain? (If so, I think I get it now… thanks!) I must beg to disagree with any reclocking naysayers.When there is a measurable difference in dither, then I would have to agree with you. If the particular device has a clock that is as stabile or more stabile than the reclocker, then that make the reclocking appear to not work… or not be needed. So asynchronous (file based), with a buffers, would seem to remove a lot of that need? |
@holmzMaybe there is some light in there? (As it looks like my near term solution is close to what he/she is doing.)
I will share what I do. I have a DAC3 from Bryston. I use a Melco N100 as a NAS/Player. I rip my CDs with a Melco 100 ripper/disc transport. The music sounds the same to me whether played from the transport or the N100. It is simply the best sound that I have ever had, much more detailed and open than using my Oppo 105 or a Sony 5100 as a transport into the same DAC. The Melco/DAC combo can probably be had for 6K. Another $5 for a decent app controls the whole thing from a phone or tablet and allows Tidal/Qobuz integration and Internet Radio. He has a tt from Audio Research. I have no idea what that costs, but I haven’t seen AR equipment at WalMart recently.The phonostage is the AR. The TT is a SOTA, which is sorta like a CD transport, and the phono stage is akin to what a DAC is doing. Well I don’t often shop at Walmart, but I suspect you are correct. All that ask from the OP is that before he issues some proclamation on the merits of digital vs analog is that he not compare apples to oranges. Don’t compare your Neiman Marcus analog rig to a Costco digital setup. Otherwise, good luckYou’re reading into this as being some attack on your digital system. But it is not about you. Obviously I am comparing the Bestbuy CD player to the analogue. Those are the two sources in the living room so there is not a lot else to A/B against each other. |
I have read all of this but have a question. I have all my cds stored FLAC on my Synology NAS. I stream music through SONOS through the house being happy with the general outcome. But for my serious listening I feed to a SONOS Connect to my main stereo. The feed goes to my Bryston dac, then to my Cronus Magnum. Am I missing anything here? How can I make this set up better?So the Snology would be like my NUC?The Sonos like rather Roon? And the DACS gets the optical from the Sonos, where I amight do it from the AVR? @lbarbishIf it is a serious question, then it seems like is similar. Or is it sarcastic? Or do the Sonos output into the DAC, do some known jitterbug dance? |
The deeper you dig,the bigger the whole.Go simple ....Amen bro. @donniewn I’ll see if the AVR has an optical out, as the R2R sound (to my mind) a good way to go. With Roon - It looks like maybe I should be do FLAC?Went to download XLD (or XLC) and it gave an “unsigned certificate” so I’ll keep looking at an OSX way… Or I’ll get (or find) a CD reader for the NUC. |
@missioncoonery do you mean me? Boy you sure do talk alot of BSUsually my BS is offered sarcastically, which many say, “is the lowest form of humour.” I generally find the idea of cables somewhat snake oil laden, and multiple stereophile routers could be in that list. But proof they work would be nice to see. I need to find my CD s transport for the NUC later today as it is supposed to rain. Before that rain starts, I should do my outside work. |
@sevestan Use yer Nak till she starts smoking then replace W/ any iof various $10-$15 cd players available at local Goodwill…yer DAC is fine! I am likely to agree. Once I replaced the store bought RCAs with some other interconnects it is sounding nice again. So some slow progress is happening. I will start moving over CDs to FLAC when I get the time. |
If you need CDs in a car you are in trouble, new ones don't have CD players. My truck is a 1993, and my car is a sports car with no radio. The truck is the main vehicle. There is also no digital radio or phone service once we get 20 miles out o town. The Truck does have a compliment of McIntosh and Nakamichi, but the noise is pretty astounding, so it is not very high SINAD. The tracking, on the shipping, indicates that my AVR has arrived, and I will convert a stack of CDs to FLAC for Roon on a NUC… |
OK, It has been about a 9 month gestation, so here is the update. I am playing the same LP from Spotify as I have on Vinyl, and it is well into the acceptable range. It is a bit of a negative in terms of noise floor on other sources, so I’ll try replacing the SMPS with an LPS. |
