No; if one always lets the primary focus be the performance. Otherwise, that search is a constant distraction.
How much reality do you really need?
The real question to the audiophile is, “how much reality do you need” to enjoy your system? Does it have to be close to an exact match? How close before your satisfied? Pursuing that ideal seems to be the ultimate goal of the audiophile.
The element of your imagination has to come into the equation, or you’ll drive yourself mad. You have to fill in part of the experience with your mind.
But this explains the phenomenon of “upgraditis.”
The element of your imagination has to come into the equation, or you’ll drive yourself mad. You have to fill in part of the experience with your mind.
But this explains the phenomenon of “upgraditis.”
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+1 erik_squires If one makes a decision to not listen at "realistic" or "concert" volume one has already decided to "depart reality." Similarly, I guess, if one prefers to have recordings without people coughing, talking, or ordering a beer. Is the aspiration for sound in one's listening room really to replicate the sound in a studio, concert hall, or bar? Or is there some other "reality" one should aspire to? |
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Some posters here have the correct answer to this simple question: There can be no reality. An event cannot be reproduced with total precision, not least because it is being reproduced at a different time. A system should seek to reproduce accurately what is on the recording. The recording exists in the time it is being played. End. |
I'm in the Master M camp. Reality is what you make it. MONEY, (as some have implied) has nothing to do with the reality of sound. TIME and experiments do.. If reality in sound equates to money invested, what do you do with ear buds or head phones? Say they don't sound good, when we all know they do. Some better than others. BUT a free pair that comes with a phone sound pretty good. Total cost .50 cents including packaging. Set of earbuds and that right! Time to DANCE.. Hat on the floor and I slowly walk around the hat to the beat of the music, BUT my faithful K-9 can't keep the beat because she's got NO EAR BUDS!!. But she tries.. NOW we stop and slowly back around the hat to the beat... :-) Regards.. |
Recently Lewis Hamilton seems to be needing more horsepower. We'll see how that works out. I like the sound of rooms along with whatever my hifi is spewing out, and was worried my newly acquired house was gonna be way too live in the high ceilinged long living room...it's not. Sounds amazing...reality bites. |
I'm actually pretty satisfied. But there's a huge caveat. My old house had a remarkable room. Even with the far away better components I have, my current system cannot compete with the sonics of the old room and my old Carver TFM-35. I have Salk Songtowers with little 5" woofers. With some tracks that room made them sound like 60" subwoofers. Not sure I can convey this so people understand. It's very strange...as if the bass response was just a little thin...but the sub bass was kinda amazing. Felt not heard. Presentation was supremely holographic. It's as if the floor was made of blackest velvet and the speakers were softly gliding the entire room floor with you on it 12' at a time. Immense power. In this house, in this room...they sound fuller in the bass and mid bass...semi holographic but lack the magic. I currently have two dedicated lines here on a 200 amp service.That house had a 1957 100 amp service and I used a shared circuit. It took me 3 years to find that spot in that room. Wish I'd realized the 'it's the room dummy' lesson years ago. |
Just enough that the illusion distracts and the deception is accepted. Perfection doesn’t really exist, but it’s fun to let oneself immerse into the fantasy that it’s all at ones’ command.... ".... She don’t know what it means But the music make her want to be the story And the story was whatever was the song what it was..." Skateaway...that’s all. ;) ....and generally.....Enough. |
Some terrific thoughts. So am I correct in concluding the answer to the question is more reality. At the time of its release you might have been completely satisfied with a Model-T, but now it's completely inadequate. Time doesn't stand still and neither does development. I might not want concert levels, but I certainly want to imagine I'm there listing to the concert. I want the least intrusive Fletcher-Munson implementation so I get the full experience at a more comfortable volume. |
@speakermaster: "The important thing is when you become happy with your system there is a time when that will happen and when it does the upgrades cease and you just listen for pleasure rather than worrying about how the system sounds if you are always worried about the sound you will drive yourself nuts." I agree entirely but it seems there are many audiophiles who never reach this stage. I'd be curious to know your particular thoughts on how this state of "being happy with your system" is arrived at. For example, does there have to be a desire to reach this stage? |
This literary passage comforts me when I question the "mojo" of my system: (apologies to mahgister for repetition) -As Harry Haller, in Hermann Hesse’ Steppenwolf, listens to Mozart explain, after Mozart places a transistor radio playing Handel on the table ( For these purposes substitute “audiophile system” for “radio”))-: "Please, no pathos, my friend! Anyway, did you observe the ritardando? An inspiration, eh? Yes, and now you tolerant man, let the sense of this ritardando touch you. Do you hear the basses? They stride like gods. And let this inspiration of old Handel penetrate your restless heart and give it peace. Just listen, you poor creature, listen without either pathos or mockery, while far away behind the veil of this hopelessly idiotic and ridiculous apparatus the form of this divine music passes by. Pay attention and you will learn something. Observe how this crazy funnel apparently does the most stupid, the most useless and the most damnable thing in the world. It takes hold of some music played where you please, without distinction, stupid and coarse, lamentably distorted, to boot, and chucks it into space to land where it has no business to be; and yet after all this it cannot destroy the original spirit of the music; it can only demonstrate its own senseless mechanism, its inane meddling and marring. Listen, then, you poor thing. Listen well. You have need of it. And now you hear not only a Handel who, disfigured by radio is, all the same, in this most ghastly of disguises still divine; you hear as well and you observe, most worthy sir, a most admirable symbol of all life. When you listen to radio you are a witness of the everlasting war between idea and appearance, between time and eternity, between the human and the divine. Exactly, my dear sir, as the radio for ten minutes together projects the most lovely music without regard into the most impossible places, into respectable drawing rooms and attics and into the midst of chattering, guzzling, yawning and sleeping listeners, and exactly as it strips the music of its sensuous beauty, spoils and scratches and be-slimes it and yet cannot altogether destroy its spirit, just so does life, the so-called reality, deal with the sublime picture-play of the world and make a hurley-burley of it. It makes its unappetizing tone—slime of the most magic orchestral music. Everywhere it obtrudes its mechanism, its activity, its dreary exigencies and vanity between the ideal and the real, between orchestra and ear. All life is so, my child, and we must let it be so; and, if we are not asses, laugh at it." |
What do you mean by real in this scenario you've set up? What are you trying to match? If you're asking can anyone reproduce the experience of a live full orchestra presentation in say Carnegie Hall with their home stereo, no. If you're asking can a reproduction of a Jazz quartet in a venue of 75 people be done with their home stereo, no. It's not possible to capture the sound field as you hear it, can't be done with two channel . You can get closer with an immersive system but still no cigar. |
Excellent post, realworldaudio; I couldn’t agree more. **** I find that _most_ current ultra-high end gear focuses too much on the enhanced resolution aspect, creating an illusionary sonic envelope that feels very much real, but also quite a bit different from the original source. It traps you in the superficiality, and shuts down the imagination, which is the exact opposite of what a live performance does. **** |
Most people don’t have a audio system capable of extracting everything on the recording ,the source turntable or digital needs to be at least $5 k minimum to be able to extract all the information , then proper cabling, solid electronics and Loudspeakers without question ,most cannot even reach the last octave into even the upper 20 hz region for example a full scale orchestra and hearing all the instruments in place on the stage That is complex , maybe 10% at best have a Audio system of this caliber and at least $50k on average .Currently I am saving for a reference quality dac $5-7k, Holo Springs KTE May dac, or Terminator+,and Loudspeakers you can get a great speaker for under $10 k if you are lucky , the Spatial audio X3 with powered Bass come to mind with VH audio Odam Capacitor upgrade, which if sold retail would be over $16 k. |
Perfect observation!The function of real music (for me) is to ignite the imagination. Yes, live music does have a component of "sonic realism", but to me that takes second seat to what universe of sound I'm getting connected to: what is the level of performers, are they good interpreters, are their instruments inspiring and alive, or is the "performance" just an empty show played by puppets slaving for money. As audiophiles, we tend to obsess about relatively meaningless envelope of the sound, and stay royally oblivious to what matters most (the musical content). Today we have audio equipment that can force very high detail level out of the recording, along with the errors, additions and deletions, and transformations of the recording process. To get the original live experience back, we would need a reverse transformation that undoes the nasties of the recording process, but the audio industry (by large) plays ostrich, and acts as if this huge roadblock would not exist, and play dumb dumb and forces the exact reproduction of the deficient recordings, which can only lead to a deviation from the original experience. I find that _most_ current ultra-high end gear focuses too much on the enhanced resolution aspect, creating an illusionary sonic envelope that feels very much real, but also quite a bit different from the original source. It traps you in the superficiality, and shuts down the imagination, which is the exact opposite of what a live performance does. So, by getting even higher resolution we might be getting further away from the music itself.... yet, much closer to an imaginary perfected sensory experience. A great and fun endeavor, but ultimately a form of escapism: adoring the shape of sound while shunning the message of the music. |
With enough distance from the movie (or audio) one can suspend belief and truly get immersed. But once you start to try to get too close, it becomes an issue that you're not really immersed. Ironically, distance leads to more immersion than simulation does. See: "And lastly, the question of immersion. 3D films remind the audience that they are in a certain "perspective" relationship to the image. It is almost a Brechtian trick. Whereas if the film story has really gripped an audience they are "in" the picture in a kind of dreamlike "spaceless" space. So a good story will give you more dimensionality than you can ever cope with." https://www.rogerebert.com/roger-ebert/why-3d-doesnt-work-and-never-will-case-closed |
The real question to the audiophile is, “how much reality do you need” to enjoy your system?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ZERO for me. I really don't care what anyone intended to be heard. I'm only concerned in what I like to hear. I'm under no obligation to reproduce what someone else was trying to do.. Think of Yoko Ono. Wouldn't you TRY to change that convergence of unholy noise? Holy water required BEFORE and AFTER a needle drop or push the play button.. :-) Purest I'M 100% opposed too, "Run what ya brung" kind of guy.. plain and simple.. No tone control.. Not me! I like tone control at the Preamp (remote access too) DSP for the bass (again adjustable from the seated position) and a tube EQ for the whole monitor section. THAT, I have to get up for.. PITA too.. gravel, gravel, mumble, mumble.. LOL MY REALITY is fine, yours, maybe not.. "The Matrix" Regards |
"I would ask: look at the sky, what color is it? You say blue and I say red." Should read: "I would ask: look at the sky, what color is it? You say blue and I say blue.". However, in my reality, I see blue and call it blue. You see (my) red and call it blue. There is no way to prove this is not happening. |
Go to a club. Every table (and thus, every patron) is oriented differently towards the sound-vibrations projected from the musicians onstage (each of whom hears their combined efforts differently). There's the guy running the sound-board, the woman in the tight black dress shunting drinks and over-priced sushi from the bar. . . who's actually perceiving "reality" in this scenario? Seems to me, reality is the combination of all of these perspectives or aural focal-points. You can arbitrarily choose one location in the venue as your baseline and then set about assembling a system with the goal of trying to replicate how sound vibrations are behaving in that particular location, at a particular time. . . If that floats your boat, go for it. What I seek in listening is a sense of heightened aliveness and this is what determines my gear choices. "How alive do I feel in this room with this music, on this system, right now?" is, for me, the operative question. Call me unsophisticated but I don't want to be burdened by worrying about whether what I'm hearing is an accurate replication of what ocurred on a December night in 1962 at Rudy Van Gelder's studio. |
My own feeling is that it is 80% speaker and room, 15% amp and 5% everything else. The cheapest system I have heard do this was in and around $90,000 in todays money.You are right in the first sentence.... You are not wrong in the second sentence,but give me 15,000 bucks and i will make it sound like the 90,000 bucks one....Why not if i can make my 500 bucks system sound like a 15,000 bucks one ? There is no reality. It is all an illusion.This is naive philosophy.... When all is illusion, reality exist, it is the "relation" between all these illusions....Call it consciousness... If you cannot spell it by this name it is because you are a naive "materialist"... «Reality bind all illusions and they become " real" illusions like in a game; illusion and reality are one loving conscious act called playing...»- Anonymus Smith «Music is not sound, this is an illusion; music is through sound, this is reality»-Anonymus Smith «I was just thinking the opposite....»-Groucho Marx 🤓 |
@jjss49 , I respectfully disagree. If I put the whole lot of you in a room with an "absolute sound" system all of you would agree right away that is the best you have heard. You know it when you hear it. It is like seeing a hologram. Everybody will see it and be amazed. Not that it won't have some faults but with the best systems you can close your eyes and see the individual instruments and voices. The speakers disappear. It is more than and instrument here and a guitar there. The individual instruments and voices have space around them. My own feeling is that it is 80% speaker and room, 15% amp and 5% everything else. The cheapest system I have heard do this was in and around $90,000 in todays money. Which in the realm of high end audio is not all that bad. I have heard 200 to 300K systems that did not make it. Perhaps they could with the right speaker placement and room treatment but for whatever reason they did not get there. I also think over dampening the room is better than under dampening. All three systems I heard that made it were strongly directional limiting room interaction....I think. |
**** how much reality do you need to enjoy your system? **** As much as possible; within the limits of what I’m willing to spend. **** Does it have to be close to an exact match? **** ”exact match” is very subjective. For me, even the best are not “close to an exact match”. So, again, as close as possible. **** How close before your satisfied? **** Impossible to quantify. As long as I can understand the musical message, I’m satisfied. Anything beyond that is icing on the cake; and I do like icing. Having said that, there’s icing out of a can and then there’s icing made with real butter and vanilla. Personally, I find that for many, a fantastic performance can be deemed “unlistenable” due to relatively minor (for me) sonic problems. I simply don’t get the mindset that doesn’t allow ignoring relatively minor sonic deficiencies for the sake of the music. ++++ how much dressing do you like on your salad? ++++ As much as, or as close to the amount that live music puts on its salad. Listen to enough of it and it becomes obvious when one is putting on too little or too much. |
“Reality is overrated”, “There is no reality”, “Everything is an illusion”, ”A good system gets you halfway there”. Obviously, any electronic recreation of reality can be an artistic picture of reality. Nothing more. High End Audio is technically based but it is really an art. There is an art in building a component as well as building a system. Like a conductor playing an orchestra, the audiophile plays the system. All elements working together to create an electronic, symphonic presentation of reality. |
