How important is the pre-amp?

WOW mikelavigne ! You’re in rarified air, or rather the stratosphere.

Actually no, just a few miles outside North Bend, way below Snoqualmie Pass, not even 1200 ft, well within the troposphere.

The preamp is as important as any other component in the system. If any one component is more important than the rest it would be the listener.

WOW mikelavigne ! You’re in rarified air, or rather the stratosphere. Good on ya. I love the listening room you built.

https://darko.audio/2015/11/the-select-dac-ii-msb-technologys-90000-da-converter/

I used to run a well-regarded passive line state (whose name escapes me) with my McCormack DNA-1, with CD source only, and loved it. McC made their own passive line stage that is still coveted when upgraded by Steve McCormack.

My sources are all digital, and I have thought of either getting one of the Tortuga passive stages (straight wire, no gain) into a DAC and then my amp, or something like the Chord Hugo TT2 DAC using that as the preamp too. And then I think that maybe a tube preamp would be fun, as I’ve never had tubes. But my whole system costs less than an exotic set of speaker cables!

Good thread, but the frustrating part is not being able to mix and match the various options in auditioning pieces (within budget), and trying to dial in the synergy. I have a short list of amps and preamps I like, but I have no idea which ones would play well together if of different brands. Therefore, I wonder if going to an integrated (Pass 60, Levinson, Aesthetix Mimas, Simaudio 600i V2) would alleviate that frustration, and then the DAC becomes the main variable. Hmmm.

As others have said, it is very dependent on the rest of your system. But unless you have a single high-level source with an excellent built in volume control (such as @mikelavigne 's MSB DAC), a good preamp can make a significant different to the overall sound quality.

In my experience (45+ years in this hobby), the speakers and room are still the most important, but the preamp is probably next in it's effect on the sound. If you're including a phono stage in the preamp, it's even more important. 

As others have stated, it’s very system dependent.  But I’d venture a guess that in most systems a preamp is critical to the end result you hear.  Over my many years of listening/learning my two absolute biggest surprises were:

1- the preamp can make a huge difference in a system’s performance, and in my system the pre makes a much bigger difference than even the amp and is only behind speakers and the room in terms of its overall influence and impact on sound (again, very system dependent).
2- subwoofers can absolutely transform a system in terms of dramatically improving imaging and expanding the soundstage (it ain’t all about that bass).

These were the two biggest smack me upside the head/I didn’t see that coming moments during my long audio journey, FWIW in the context of your question.  I’d HIGHLY recommend at least demoing a good pre in your system to see what you hear for yourself — I bet you’ll be pretty surprised.  I sure as hell know I was.  Have fun with the journey. 

I believe that the preamp is the heart of most good systems. It has been for mine for fifty years. It is the heart of the magic. Some folks have sucessfully connected digital equipment direct to amps but so far that seldom works well. This may work in the future, but getting compatible and synergistic is exceptionally difficult. If you do a survey of the literature it is really hard to do, many people that try it, give up and go back to a preamp.

You really have to be careful about this “most important” component thing.  Maybe.. for components at the same level of performance or cost “the most important component” is. But even that is hard. For me, I generally put the most money into the preamp. It is the heart, and you don’t want it coloring the sound.

Some subscribe to the theory that the preamp is the "heart" of the system.  Amplification to simply enlarge what is then presented.  For me, the preamp is vital downstream of the DAC but this is driven by personal taste and I like the sound of tubes between the DAC and SS amplifier.
Does this add some distortion, of course. It also adds dimensionality to what otherwise sounds thin to my ears. We are all different I particularly like a little tube distortion. It *feels* good. 

In my experience yes. 
Specifically, I added a preamp to a system with DAC, turntable and integrated amp.  
I negotiated an at home trial with McIntosh C2600 and it made a distinct difference.  Why, I don’t know. 
Would this experience be true with all preamps?  I don’t know either. 

you cannot generalize about the importance of preamps as the contribution of preamps to the system performance is all about context and the resolution of the system.

at modest levels of gear preamps are limitations to performance as they add cables, plugs and mediocre circuits to the signal path. you are better off finding sources with analog volume controls that are capable of directly driving amplifiers (less is definitely more at modest levels). your net performance will be higher for the same investment. i’m over-simplifying things somewhat, but this is mostly how it goes. an exception is where you personally prefer the coloration a particular preamp might bring to what you hear. a matter of personal preference....and not how i like to do it.

past a certain point of gear performance/resolution level preamps start to add dynamics and drive to the music. then the next step is preamp synergy with amplifiers. the top level of preamps are the ones made to be optimized with particular amplifiers. at the cutting edge preamps limit amps and amps limit preamps. the idea is the sum is greater than the parts.

in my particular system i have a great passive preamp inside my MSB Select II Dac. it’s really fine directly driving my dart amps. but my darTZeel battery power active preamp combined with my dart amps is even better. but if i did not have multiple analog sources i would eliminate the dart pre and go naked with the MSB passive pre in my dac.

I also think its the heart of a great system.   I like them stripped down, as few switches and other things in the signal path as possible.   Less is more .....  I dont care about specs or anything other than how it sounds, or doesn't sound like ANYTHING more preferably 

I agree with Tvad. There is no one correct answer since our perceptions of sound are all subjective. I have tried both ways a number of times, and always come back to an active linestage. Yes, they all sound different, but they all seem to reveal more depth and nuance to my ears, whereas passives seem to have the edge with faster transients and a somewhat leaner sound.
We need a contribution here from georgehifi.

After almost 50 years of this mania, IMHO the preamp is the most important component in a system; it is the heart from which all arteries (cables to amp tp speakers) and veins (inputs from sources) flow. I have a VTL 7.5 iii and it is the most neutral, flawless component I have ever owned. Neal

like mentioned by Atmasphere some can and some can't.  Everything you listen to has coloration even passive, transformers, tubes, resistors and capacitors all have their own coloration.  You cannot get around it.

@tvad    The choice of preamp, and whether to use one at all is also governed by an amplifier's gain. Yepper.  This also comes into play when people write a review and compare things.  Not always apples to apples as they say.

Happy Listening.

From integral to superfluous to hindrance. It’s system dependent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Had a  Chinese clone of a  jadis circuit, obviously far away froma  actual Jadis,a s 1 tech geek who mods these linestage told me,,,but anyway,, had 6 12AT7's, love all those tubes,,,installed Mundorf caps, ,,,6 months later added a Jadis DPL from 2000 era, installed M caps, Takman resistors,, honestly,, the DPL was a  nuance superior, not bu much.
So yes, a  linestage has slight, minisclue gains in sonic.s

My mantra here on audiogon is
~~Speakers are everything ina  system~~
At least 90% of the soundstage.
= preamps/amps/source, all divide the 15%
5%/5%/5%
Speakers 85%
So do the math. 

Some folks like coloration certain preamps provide.

This is of course a point of tremendous debate. I prefer the lack of coloration afforded when the interconnect cables cease to alter the sound of the system. You can't do that with a passive setup. But to be clear a lot of active preamps can't insure that either.

A pre amp is all about control for me.
Had a hard time finding one balanced in/out, two stacked processor loops accessible via remote and at least 4 inputs. As a bonus it's totally nuetral (as a passive), has remote mono and trims for each input to match levels.
Worth the search.

I started typing when Ralph pretty much summed it up

Some would argue it’s the most important link in the chain. How can you realize the full potential of your sources, amp, and speakers without a great preamp?

I get how power amps can make really significant changes to the sound of a system. And of course speakers have an even bigger effect. And then there is the complicated relationship between the speaker and power amp. But I wonder about pre-amps.

This is how important: no matter how good your amps and speakers are, they cannot make up for a shortcoming upstream. The preamp is vital in this regard. Sometimes you can get by with a simple volume control and a switch (to do so, plan on keeping your interconnect cables really short).

I have my preamp sitting with my source equipment in an equipment stand that is well away from my speakers. To increase system resolution, I run short speaker cables and long (30') balanced interconnect cables. But my preamp supports the balanced line standard so I can run cables that long with no degradation and the kind of cable is irrelevant to the sound of the system (since that is one of the advantages of the balanced line system).  In a case like this you can see how important the preamp is, since most sources do not have the ability to drive long cables.

When I added a Herron Audio tube pre-amp to my system, it was an immense change, and all for the better. I had been using an MSB DAC into an MSB power amp, but now I've got that DAC running into the preamp, which in turn runs into the power amp, and yow, what a difference!! 

In theory a well designed preamp should just act as a source switch and volume control.

Correct. Only problem, it takes about $20k to attain "in theory". For much less you get a whole big long list of sacrifices and compromises. In other words, "reality".     

PS- Even for $20k all you get is a much shorter list of smaller sacrifices and compromises. There is no "in theory". That's the reality.

I've long thought of them as heart of system. An active pre certainly has flavor which can be a wonderful or bad thing. Get it right, you'll love your system more than sans pre. With advent of digital volume control, I see many foregoing pre, they're missing out, imo.
The issue is wrong or bad active pre worse than no pre.

From integral to superfluous to hindrance. It’s system dependent.

I'd say the impact of the pre-amp is "Huge" in your system.
Probably second only to your speakers.

It depends.  There are amps out there that are designed and work well with the preamp stage in many sources like DACs.  This is not always the case though.  I have had serious issues with matching DAC preamp stages to SETs for instance.  

If the volume control in a DAC is good, you don't need an analog input and the output from the DAC is well suited to the power amp you don't need a preamp. 

Secondarily though, many preamps do add some coloration.  For many this is a strike against them.  For others, this is an essential role but this is strictly a matter of taste.  

I learned something from these two short videos. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh27E7YKN9s&ab_channel=PSAudio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cnhzBdbsdw&ab_channel=PSAudio

A preamp can make a significant difference in sound. I suspect "the theory" doesn’t tell the whole story, plus there are different levels of "perfectly good".  

The value of more expensive components means different things to different people. Not only do some people have deeper pockets and think nothing of spending $20K on a preamp, those who "get it right" also tend to have access to equipment that performs at a level many of us are simply unfamiliar with....similar to expensive cars. I would never spend $5K for performance shocks and racing tires for my Hyundai Elantra, but if I owned a McLaren it’d seem silly not to. Sometimes things just cost more, but sometimes they actually offer more too. A world class preamp is likely to have a better phono stage with more options, better line stage with more options, better switches, better connections, better build quality on everything, etc. In a highly resolving system, everything becomes more audible, but to make sense, all the components need to be at a similar clarity level. There’s distinctly diminishing returns as the prices go up though.

I have an excellent older (refreshed) Lazarus Cascade Basic tube preamp that was $650 new in the late 80s....it’d probably retail for closer to $2K now. It works well, sounds great to me, and is a good match for the rest of my system. As good as my preamp is, a Convergent SL-1 is better in every way, but it’s just beyond budget for guys like me, and I’d have to transform my entire system up to that level, or it’s advantage would be negated by the rest of my system.