How important is it for you to attain a holographic image?

Yeti, I know it's possible to have a very wide "sweet spot", but very expensive; I don't have it, mine is the same as yours.

I’ve been known to leave the mono switch on after playing a mono album an not notice for a day or two of stereo recordings so probably not a major issue for me.

What I do dislike is when the sound dives for the closest speaker when I listen off axis as I’m often not listening alone, it’s possible to set speakers up so this doesn’t happen and the image stays stabe but the positioning needs to be quite precise. I found Sumiko Masterset quite useful for this.

When I listen to the Hollywood Saxaphone Quartet ( https://www.amazon.com/Hollywood-Saxophone-Quartet/dp/B00CHQKNNO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=15464207...
or Doc Evans "classics of the 20" on Audiophile AP 50, https://www.amazon.com/Classics-20s-Red-Vinyl-Evans/dp/B002LO6RAA/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&...(mid-50s mono LPs, the saxes aren't piled up in the center but spread across between my speakers and the band is spread out as well with instruments placed 3D in between depending on where they were recorded.  So many of my mono LPs have depth and spread out performers, as if they were stereo, it fools even die-hard stereophiles.   Maybe I just have a mediocre audio system that falsifies mono into omni-sound.  Although I doubt that because true stereo sounds great as well and my speakers are definitely non-omni types.  Just ask Oregonpapa since his system is similar type and similar sounding.

orpheus10 & gdnrbob ...

I remember when Clifford was killed too. My older cousin, who introduced me to jazz, broke the news to me. He was actually crying.

I remember back in the early 70s as I was looking through the used records at Aaron’s Records in West Hollywood, across from Fairfax high school, as a man standing next to me was looking through the Clifford Brown section. I asked him if he knew Clifford’s music. He said ... "Oh sure, I play classical trombone with the Los Angeles Phil. All of us brass players know about Clifford - he was the best."

And indeed he was. :-)

Frank

@rvpiano .
Thanks for reminding me about Clifford Brown. I got him playing right now...
B

Newbee, you are right, there are not so many and I listen to music the same as someone with a one box player; I listen for music, not holography.

You asked if I ran across a recording that displayed holography, to clue you in. Here's a record that displays it, and it's just a record that I bought before CD.

Weather Report, "Black Market" was recorded in 1975, and it was released by Columbia Records. It's fusion; hope you can find and enjoy it.

Oregon, I was a teenager staying with my older cousin, who was a jazz collector, in Chicago when Clifford Brown was killed in a car accident.

Clifford Brown and Max Roach Quintet was my favorite album, and "Delilah" was my favorite cut. It was after I had gotten attached to Clifford's music that he was killed; this was heart breaking.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePoc



        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/25/AR2006062500962.html?nav=rss_print/s...

Maplegrove, without a doubt, panel speakers are the best for holography; that's because they're "dipole". While this is true, they lack a certain "solidity"; I have the best of both worlds, mine are custom speakers that combine a heil airmotion transformer, which is dipole, with a 6 inch and a 12 inch driver.

A crossover engineer was required to get this to work. I don't recommend it, nor would I ever do it again, because it has taken years of fine tuning to get it just right for my ears, but that's the price for a trip to paradise. (if I had to replace them, it would be with panel speakers)

Do you remember the "Amazing Carver" speakers? I liked them too.


Happy listening, and Happy New Year.

Once you get a holographic soundstage , why would you ever not want it.  It adds to the realism of performers in the room. I guess if you have never experienced it you will not care because you have no idea how great it is . having gone through 30 pairs of speakers in the last 4 years the speakers that can do this have been my favorites.  Panel speakers by far have given me the best imaging . 

Once you hear Clifford Brown, there’s no going back.  Sheer genius!

Ha! Nice to know that there are some other Clifford Brown fans posting here. Even though he was killed in a car accident in 1956, at the young age of 25, Clifford has influenced many other players, including modern ones. We are fortunate that he left us with many of his performances on recordings. Every time I play one of my Clifford Brown albums, the same thought occurs to me ... " Wynton Marsalis eat your heart out." :-)

Here’s a beautiful Clifford Brown album and a must have:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Clifford-Brown-All-Stars-Clifford-Brown-CD-1991-XCLNT-Japan-for-U-S/2538258...

The second cut, "Autumn in New York" takes up a whole side of the album. It is a beautiful ballad that really shows the soulfulness of Clifford Brown. I have it both on vinyl and CD. Both are excellent. And yes, its mono, but you won’t care. That trumpet is suspended right between the speakers in all of its joyful splendor. The other cut is hard-bop and shows Clifford’s blazing technique.

Also, another great mono record is Dave Brubeck’s "Jazz Impressions of The USA." Here’s a promo LP:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dave-Brubeck-Jazz-Impressions-Of-The-USA-Columbia-984-PAUL-DESMOND-WLP-PROM...

Yes, again it is mono ... but Desmond’s alto sax just floats on air with excellent presence and tonal quality. I have a promo vinyl copy only, so I can’t vouch for the CD if it even exists. There’s a drum solo on side two by Joe Morello that is demo quality. Like ... dare I say it? .... In the room! :-)

Frank

Yes rvpiano, they are; "Special mastering has been used to produce the best monaural quality from available tape with the feeling that the understanding and enjoyment of the music takes precedence over technology".

Although this is in "Mono", there is an incredible presence and realism to the music; the musicians are in your listening room, one at a time when they solo.

Those Clifford Brown recordings are fabulous in every way!

Fleschler, just for you, I searched until I found a "Mono" of some of my favorite music; "The Clifford Brown Quintet" featuring Max Roach, Harold Land, Richie Powell, and George Morrow on bass; with Clifford Brown on trumpet of course.

This music was recorded at Capital Studios, Los Angeles, 1954; Although it's in "Mono" the recording quality is fantastic, but it's in "Mono"; that means one big fat center channel spread across my rear wall.

I'm glad your rig is producing holographic sound with a Mono record, mine isn't.

I experience holographic sound from many mono recordings.  One does not require stereo, 2 channel sound to achieve 3D sound.   My best mono recordings have great depth and open soundstage, including wall to wall sounds as the recording permits.  What they lack is specificity of instruments depending on the recording that stereo provides is inconsequential.  I'm sure you'll claim that mono has only 2D sound.  

"Audio Holography" is nothing more than stereo taken to it's highest level; it's not something different. Using our vision as an analogy, whatever is on the disc or record, is what we're looking at. Two eyes that visualize everything from a slightly different perspective, is what gives the world depth and dimension.

Two speakers projecting slightly different views of the same sound, when perfected; meaning everything in the audio chain is of a very high quality, produce a visual image of the audio. While the gear produces a perfect image, the room distorts this image by not reflecting all the sound waves symmetrically. Trial and error will get us in the ballpark, but since we can not see sound waves, we need professional help, or professional measuring gear in order to perfect the sound stage with room treatment.


We have identified the elusive holographic sound stage, and since it was a team effort, I think it has been defined to everyone's satisfaction.

Each time we upgrade our rigs, we are moving in the direction of "holography" whether we realize it or not. However, it's only when we actively pursue room treatment, are we actively pursuing "Holography".

Prof, not only have you identified a "holographic soundstage" but you have one; a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Orpheus10,

Now that you’ve got the Prof involved, you’re in for it!

orpheus10


——“Since "holography" requires the best electronics, and speakers set up by professionals, that statement lacks credibility.“

As I’ve made clear through the thread:  I’ve been referring to a holographic quality in the sense well understood and accepted for many years in high end audio:  as captured by the terms imaging/soundstage/dimensionality.

A number of my systems routinely produce a large soundstage with excellent image precisIon, great depth, a sense of sound dimensional sonic images of musicians in layers of depths detached from, around and behind the speakers.  Often with a nice sense of density and presence.
I recently played the Taxi Driver soundtrack for a musician friend and he was utterly blown away by the sense of real musicians in a real space “Like I was as right there on floor listening to the musicians make the recording.”

Plenty of other audiophiles have systems that soundstage spectacularly as well.

Whereas:  You have been throwing around the term “Holography” in an ill-defined manner.   Seemingly it’s conveniently something you have... but no one is left the wiser if in fact you are experiencing something beyond what we have.  So your pronouncements about what it takes to achieve “holography” just hang in the air as unsupported, vague claims.

—-“If you don’t want a good system I have no problem with that...”

You’ve pulled that out of nowhere.  Of course I want a good system.  That’s why I have one.  And it is very “holographic” was in the ways I have indicated.

And no it didn’t take a professional to set up my system.  

Though I did redesign my room in consultation with an acoustician so perhaps my system has that advantage over yours.

(Though I was able to get a very dimensional image even before the reno)

Lukaske - Have you listened to acoustic orchestral music, some big band jazz, piano, even electronica like Yello on your Ilumnia Magisters? They have an unconventional design which is at least quasi-omnidirectional and possibly very holographic.

Have you heard classic 50’s-60’s vocal and jazz recordings? From the Youtubes, I can’t tell whether I like or dislike these speakers because the type of "music" on them sounds like what I hear at audio shows and tells me very little about the music, just sounds. I am very familiar with the EAR tube gear (my backup system is similar).

 Holographic sound is fantastisch,but always combinated with detail  and surround. Maybe 1 at 10 recordings have a good balance. A lot of recordings are bad: “ Hymn” , Sarah Brightman is terrible at a good system. Why: Violins in the front,very compact like in a box, not holographic and the voice sounds 10 meters behind.
The wires in your system ar also very important: copper,rhodium for tubes. + silver for transistor .
The placement of the set,the accoustic of the room is important to.
Now i have: Luxman sacd- 06, Audio Note M5,Gamut D-200i and the Ilumnia Magister. My friend: Ear 868 dpf , Ear 509 power Mono Blocks, and Ilumnia Magister. It’s great.
Enjoy your music, make the best of it,because for you,music is one of the important things in your life!! Make 2019 even more musical. “The very best”!!!Lukas

30 years of hard labor?

Sounds like a prison sentence to me!

Anyway, I won’t be around then.

 

Flesschler, in regard to the music, I listen to a lot of "Blue Note" jazz recorded by RVG. That has absolutely nothing to do with holography, but everything to do with the content and quality of the music; holography happens when it happens depending on the record.

I have no idea what we have to agree to disagree about. While most certainly you will not get holography with less than high quality speakers, the size of the speakers are dependent on the size of your room. "holography" is a function of the speakers, the amp, the pre-amp, the turntable, the cartridge, (or CD player), and last but not least, "the room". All of these items must function as one unit; there is no magic "holography button" on the speakers or the rest of the components required to deliver good sound.

I play music the same as someone with a one box rig; what I want to hear at any given moment without any regard for holography.

The biggest perk in my rig is the acquisition of a new collection; meaning the music I acquired 50 years ago is fresh, sparkling, and new.

Since you must have everything else that is desirable in a rig before you can get to "holography", I say it is the most desirable because you can not get to holography before you get to everything else.



gpgr4blu said;


Holographic imaging is not the be all and end all of audio. But when your system has excellent timbre, texture, pace and dynamics---and then you tune it in to the nth degree (speaker placement/room treatments) --it can result in holographic imaging which, to me, is musical heaven.




"Holographic imaging" is the result, for me, of 30 years hard labor that will be complete after I get professional room treatment. It is the "result", not a single item in and of itself, like tone or timbre, but the result of every component functioning as one unit to deliver heavenly music to your specifications.

Holographic imaging is not the be all and end all of audio. But when your system has excellent timbre, texture, pace and dynamics---and then you tune it in to the nth degree (speaker placement/room treatments) --it can result in holographic imaging which, to me, is musical heaven. 

Furthermore, the acoustic treatments of the listening room are of paramount importance.  Diffusion of mids and highs are useful for the interiors (and absorption of the bass in the walls).  I use a mixture of SR HFTs and two pairs of Shakti Hallographs to obtain optimal soundstage and imaging.  In my new home, I may switch to high end diffusion panels along the rear and front walls.  It is cheaper to treat the room than just buy more equipment.  

I've heard many audio systems which had tons of air, ambiance and 3D holographic sound.  The best were monitor size speakers and one or two way implementation.  There was one in an Einstein equiped room that had the recording sound like it had 50' in back of it, pinpoint imaging while the actual room was only about 8' deep behind the speakers.  They were spectacular for that purpose.  HOWEVER, in my large audio room, there would be missing dynamics and bass.  Exactly why I don't own stats any longer.  Large. expensive speakers with the 3D holographic imaging tended to have music which I will not listen to, simple vocals of Barber and Krall, simple jazz or rock with a bass, drums and guitar (rarely a piano in site-too demanding to reproduce correctly).  We just have to agree to disagree.

"My own experience suggests your claim is incorrect. I have heard plenty of systems do some incredible dimensionality and soundstaging while sounding to my ears bereft of convincing instrumental timbre, or dynamics, or other traits."


Since "holography" requires the best electronics, and speakers set up by professionals, that statement lacks credibility.



"Therefore someone who chooses a system that does not do everything exactly as YOU want it is not by default desiring some coloration akin to a smiley faced eq. It may simply be that they have chosen their own set of compromises where the system has better fidelity either to some aspect of the source or to the qualities of live music that another system doesn’t do as well."


There are as many ways to "holography" as there are ways to get from you're house to Chicago. I never specified any specific system.

If you don't want a good system, I have no problem with that; however you want to define a good system is fine with me.

Newbee, I was listening to "Black Widow" by Lalo Schifrin, and discovered this record was quite holographic. While it's not a special record in regard to exclusivity (it's quite common) it is special in regard to music and recording quality.

Lalo Schifrin is also quite special; he has done a lot of excellent work for the movie industry.

In the evening, I settle back and listen to music the same as someone with a one box record player; it's all about the music; we might even be listening to the same music. That was meant to clarify any and all misconceptions.


Enjoy the music.

Getting a nice deep wide soundstage is best accomplished, at least to a large degree, by a method that eliminates or reduces trial and error. Correct speaker placement is critical for obtaining the best possible soundstage, but the ubiquitous trial and error technique of moving a little, listening a little is bound to fail to come up with the absolute best locations. The best you can do is find a local maximum. The best way to determine the best speaker locations for any speaker in any room, for whatever stage of room treatment employed, is using one of the test CDs that contain a speaker set up track, also called out of phase track. Another tip is start with speakers closer together and work outward. As fate would have it most speakers should be placed closer together, not farther apart. You know, for best soundstage. Of course, there’s a lot more to it than speaker placement.

@orpheus10

—-“I stand by that statement 100%, “

Suite yourself. Doesn’t make it a jot more reasonable to keep standing by it.

If I declared “Without a shadow of a doubt the most desirable car is the 68 corvette”
everyone would understand I am talking for MYSELF since I used the word “desirable” which is a subjective value statement.

No matter how many times I stand by that claim, that will remain the case. To think otherwise is to be confused about the nature of subjectivity and objectivity.

—-“Since whether you know it or not; it is 100% impossible to get holography without having the other desirable elements of audio; “

So you claim. I hope you won’t be insulted if we don’t automatically take everything you claim as Gospel Truth. I haven’t seen reason yet to presume we are in the presence of an enlightened audio guru - writing style aside :).

My own experience suggests your claim is incorrect. I have heard plenty of systems do some incredible dimensionality and soundstaging while sounding to my ears bereft of convincing instrumental timbre, or dynamics, or other traits.

There is no perfect audio reproduction system. All have compromised to one degree or another - something that some other system may do better, or that is preferred by other listeners.

Therefore someone who chooses a system that does not do everything exactly as YOU want it is not by default desiring some coloration akin to a smiley faced eq. It may simply be that they have chosen their own set of compromises where the system has better fidelity either to some aspect of the source or to the qualities of live music that another system doesn’t do as well.

I played in a large funk band for many years. If my main criteria were to reproduce that type of live sound as closely as possible any number of pro PA speakers would kick the crap out of the typical audiophile system no matter how “holographic” their image. Holography wouldn’t even come in to the picture as the live sound never had such a quality to begin with.

So there is no “one size fits all” criteria or claim that can be made as you seem to want to make.

@newbee  Hence my belief that full-scale orchestral recordings are the toughest--and to some extent, impossible--test of systems and the rooms they're installed in.

Newbee,  you are absolutely correct.  I simply listen to music (all of it has depth and air, the fringe benefit of having sought "holography"), and revel in it when the recording reveals such.

When I hear this revealed to the extent of being able to visualize the artist in three dimensional space, I will make a note of it, and post it on this thread; it might take a few days.

"I like what sounds good to me". That seems to be a reasonable comment. Let me tell you where it leads. In the late 70's, "graphic equalizers" were the rage; my preamp had "turnover tone controls"; they doubled your ability to control bass and treble, plus I had a "dynamic range expander", that flashed a tiny red led when it was operating.

Has anyone visited a fun house with the funny mirrors? You know the one's where you're tall and skinny in one, short and fat in another, watermelon head in the next one, and on and on....

We did this with our music; not enough bass; no problem, slide them sliders, flip that turnover tone control switch; don't quit until it "sounds good to me".

What was the artist trying to say? "I didn't know that was important; what I want to hear is more important; after all, I'm paying the cost to be the boss."

Without realizing it, we were distorting the music to such an extent that it would have been unrecognizable to the artist who created it.

Back to the music and the artist; he or she spent their entire lives in an effort to learn music, and say what they wanted to say with music, the same as a writer. Would you buy a book and rewrite it? But it's OK to mess with what someone considers their work of art.

"To be, or not to be, that is the question"?

Now that I have described what I don't want, I'll get to what I do want;
 
—- “Without a shadow of a doubt, the most desirable aspect of high end audio is "The Holographic sound stage",”

I stand by that statement 100%, because if you're trying to get to the bottom of the pool you have to pass through the first three feet. If you're trying to get to the top of the building, you have to travel past the first three floors. (but not if the pool is only two feet deep, or it's only a two story building)

Since whether you know it or not; it is 100% impossible to get holography without having the other desirable elements of audio; just as it is impossible to get to the bottom of a 10 foot deep pool without going through the first three feet, or get to the top of a tall building without going past the first three floors.

@orpheus10

—- “Without a shadow of a doubt, the most desirable aspect of high end audio is "The Holographic sound stage",”

Correction: FOR YOU that is the most desirable aspect.

I’m often puzzled by how many audiophiles confuse their own subjective preferences and criteria as if it is THE goal to which all do or should aspire.

I happen to really value dimensional imaging in my system, but plenty of people don’t have that as a priority. Good for them. People are different.

Also, I find it weird that a very “holographic” dimensional sonic image is being depicted as some hard to achieve result. Nah. I’ve found it pretty easy. I just choose speakers that image/soundstage/disappear well to begin with, and care with positioning and listener orientation brings it out very nicely.

Yes other components can aid the phenomenon to some degree - I’ve had many different amps, CD players/DACS preamps, different turntables, phono stages etc and yes the imaging/dimensionality has “flexed”
somewhat, sometimes.


But by far the bulk of the dimensional imaging comes from the speaker design/room acoustics/speaker positioning. No expensive cabling needed, no tweaking-to-the-max, no taking apart and messing with every component required.

rvpiano, I too find that smaller forces 'image' better than large orchestral ones, probably due to the relatively simpler recording procedures that can be used. What I miss in my system that I experience live is a room 'fullness' caused, I believe, by reflections, which are hard to recreate in your home without over driving your room. For me that balance is hard to acquire and I think that my experience is not unique and explains why multi-channel set ups are initially popular (at least for a while).

Sorry to break up this idyllic flow of paeans to holography, but as one who most definitely HAS heard holographic presentation, I can say, while it is very impressive in its own right, it is not the end-all of recorded sound.  It does not, for example, guarantee a full bodied presentation of an orchestra, 
Whereas in smaller forces, it may be effective, in larger forces there can definitely be fullness lacking in a system that otherwise creates holography.

I think it would be helpful if those who have created this optimum imaging in their own home (called holographic) would list the recordings they have heard which can reveal this imaging. FWIW, I think there are not so many, but it would be fun, for me at least, to have some recordings so I could play them on my system and see how far I have progressed in setting up my system, which images quite well, but not yet perfectly, I think.

Michael, I'm not very far away from "My musical heaven", and once I get there, I don't think I'll have much time left to post here or anywhere else.

once you hear it the hobby changes for us, forever

I agree. This recently happened for me. There is no going back.

Michael, no matter how many times you take these horses to the water, you can not make them drink.

Time, time, and time again, I explained that "Holography" is the end result of all the things they have mentioned, plus taking it to another level of refinement.

I don't believe they've even heard good holography, based on their comments. They don't stand a chance of creating it because they don't really know what it is; their comments remind me of the blind man describing an elephant. Some of the comments are as ridiculous as having a boat without a bottom, but since we are discussing what you hear as opposed to what you see, they don't realize that.

They're responses are because we no longer have "high end emporiums" where they could walk in and hear high end gear set up in a proper manner, in a proper room, with "audiophile" salespeople who could answer their questions.

I first heard music so life like that the artists seemed to be visible; I wanted to go up on the stage and kiss Carmen McRae. This was in 1990; today is 12/30/2018; I have been working to duplicate what I heard since the first day I heard it; now I'm working on the finishing touches to the room, which will require professional expertise.

I completely disagree that the holographic image is the most important factor in arriving at the high end in audio.   The most important  factors are the rhythm, tone/harmonics and dynamics in achieving an enjoyable representation of music.   I've been to hundreds of music show rooms and salons and for the last decade, I've encountered a plethora of bad sounding/non-engaging equipment which strives to present the air, ambiance and holographic precision of the recording venue above all else.  Very often, the three main factors I've mentioned are partially or wholly missing in reproducing the musical recording event (live or recording studio).  

The finest audio system I've heard ($1.5 million von Schweikert/VAC/Kronos/etc). presented a overwhelming realism based on my three most important factors.  Sure there was air and ambiance, but what struck us most of all was the realism of the 3 factors above. 

Younger audiophiles are often unacquainted with live acoustic music heard in good acoustic venues.  I listen to classical, vocal and jazz in live venues.  (I also listen to manufactured sounds as in rock and electronic sounds as in Yello).  Essentially, the high end audio system must get the first three factors correct and will achieve the air, ambiance and holographic sound as a bonus.   How often have I heard high end systems miss the big 3 and have tons of the latter 3 bonus elements playing Diana Krall and Patricia Barber recordings.  Young audiophiles need to hear all types of music to gain an understanding as to what makes music sound good and engaging.  The last decade has had so many equipment manufacturers trying to outdo each other in the realm of air and holographic imaging.  They should be concentrating in presenting the big 3 factors first.  

"Holographic sound" is the end of a very long journey; it’s not a button on a preamp that reads "Holographic sound".

It’s for certain that you can’t get it when you don’t know what it is, and even then, not every recording delivers "Holographic sound", but if your "system" can deliver holographic sound, you can bet it delivers whatever else is on that recording.

I refer to "system" because I am speaking of an organic whole thing in which the room is a very important component that requires a considerable amount of expertise that may require outside help. Although I’m a retired electronics technician, quite capable of dealing with the equipment, "the room" was outside of my field of expertise. (it’s no wonder no one wants "Holographic sound")

The components required are no less than grade "B" as ranked by Stereophile; sorry "mid fi" will just not make the grade.

I refer to "Holographic sound" as a long journey, because you have to know "intimately" what each and every component in your rig is contributing to the whole; that requires a considerable amount of audio education and study, not to mention days of "critical" listening, which means not listening to the music, but focusing on frequency response, or transparency.

After you have acquired the necessary components, and gone over everything twice, it’s still not quite there; it’s "lopsided".

Back to the drawing board; "Why does the left channel sound louder than the right channel ?"

The answer to that question can take months to discover, and after the answer is found, the solution to the problem can take even longer to solve; no wonder there are so many who don’t want "Holographic sound".

Another recent example was the McIntosh XR50.

Great transparency, and imaging when vocals weren’t rattling the driver frame. :)

Of course, having it all is ideal, but I have so far seen frequency response and imaging to be independent features in most speakers.

I guess this is what should separate the truly great from merely useful speakers. :)


Best,
E

Do you realize that it is impossible not to have these things, and at the same time to have "holography".

I think it depends on what we are calling holography. If you mean a precise or too-precise stereo image, then no, you are not restricted to the FR like I have proposed. As I have mentioned, there are tweaks that enhance imaging at the expense of the FR.

Separately in another thread I discussed a speaker with very good imaging, and exaggerated vocal sounds.

This is a perfect example. Great imaging, wide sweet spot, and a FR that is not that natural to my ears.



Best,
E

@orpheus10 " Without a shadow of a doubt, the most desirable aspect of high end audio is "The Holographic sound stage",

I’ve read a number of articles about this by high end audio critics who do not agree with that.

" Realism is not oversold, but it is very hard to achieve"

Define realism. It certainly isn’t what a sound engineer captures in a specialized studio where electronic music is recorded, usually on different tracks and often at different times and in some cases in different locations. Especially when virtually all of those tracks are altered after being recorded.

" Do you realize that it is impossible not to have these things, and at the same time to have "holography"."

I get that. But you can have all these things without what you call holography. And it appears that in that scenario there exist plenty of high end users who simply don't put holography as their primary goal or source of enjoyment.

Seems hard for you to get past that.

Without a shadow of a doubt, the most desirable aspect of high end audio is "The Holographic sound stage", and we see here, so many people don't want it. "Talk about the fox and the grapes"; this is the best example I have ever witnessed.

Rvpiano, why would you think I was speaking to you? I didn't address you specifically.

You can not achieve anything from a record if it's not there; if you do, there is something wrong with your record player.

Realism is not oversold, but it is very hard to achieve; however, here we have more green grapes.

Erik-squires; "1. Smooth FR. One that does not call attention to itself, but feels effortless in dynamic range and endless to the edges in the bass and the treble.

2. Transparency. To me, what I mean is the aural equivalent of standing on a mountain top, and realizing you can see for miles farther than you ever could."

Do you realize that it is impossible not to have these things, and at the same time to have "holography".

Everything everybody mentioned that is more important to them than "Holography" is included in holography; that is, unless you want exaggerated bass, or exaggerated dynamic range, that's not included in holography; only what is on the CD or tape, or record is included in holography.

Maybe this link will help those who have never experienced holography, to understand it.


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscope


A "stereo image" is recorded in audio, exactly the same as this visual image; when it's done right, a visual image of the audio will be displayed; if and only "if" you have a room that will precisely reflect audio in a manner that can recreate the recorded image. If, and only if, your audio equipment can recreate every detail that is on the recorded medium, like a Zeiss lens can recreate the image of a picture that is taken.

Since the "holographic image" includes every minute detail that is on the recorded medium, nothing in high end audio is more desirable.