How important is it for you to attain a holographic image?
bsimpson77 posts03-07-2019 2:27amWhoever feel holographic image is critical in listening enjoyment, would you please tell us where should we sit when we attend a live performance in a concert hall? Thank you >>>>>No, thank you! Thanks for highlighting an obvious advantage of home systems over a concert hall, I.e., a consistent and better holographic soundstage. Plus you don’t have to put up with all the coughing and snoring. |
I dont think that listening a real concert and listening a files or a cd are the same thing at all... Even if a correlation in terms of sound space is possible, the 2 experiences are too much different to reduce one to the other.... And where to sit in a concert ? There are no rooms,or no live concert halls that are identical et possess the sames acoustics, and we are all different individuals with different goals, then I had no ideas how to answer that...For me listening my audio system and a real concert had no relation at all,other than an acoustic methaphorical one,because there is many interpreters in the audible chain of events between the musician in the room or in the studio, the sound engineer the mixer, etc and the listener...All these people had a different experiences... |
No electrical environment is the same, and my speakers are good (Mission Cyrus 781) but one is battered and more feeble with is tweeter(50 bucks paid) I dont doubt that the focal are probably better... I make already my own room treatment with cheap materials with success but I am in nearfield listening...The more difficult to gain is not imaging but holographic cellular atmospheric soundstage around the speakers not only between and naturalness of musical timbre of instrument...Never mind what you already own and your very good sound, it is better to clean the electrical grid and the audio grid this is the road for your gear to gain their ultimate potential ... |
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I obtain holographic 3-d positioning only after I clean up all my electrical grid and also my audio grid...Before that with the same gear all sound was more between the speakers than atmospherically suspended around them with clear pin point accuracy of position... I am in near listening... I obtain also tonal accuracy only after this cleaning, then cleanliness, all things being equals about choice of gear, is the foremost fundamental necessity and the most underestimated one of all factors in audio...Money dont buy perfection, experiments and thinking helps very much more... |
@pwhinson I don’t doubt your friends JBL m2 setup sounds amazing.... many people on this site would regard that system as ‘substandard’ or ‘not worthy’ of comment, but I have a feeling it works great. i have been playing with Crown XLS 1500 and 1502 class d amplifiers. They are meant for sound reinforcement and/or live gigs. They have internal crossovers and can produce some serious watts! And they are super quiet, no buzzing or humming, and no heat. You can easily afford them and the fans never come on. At one point in a bi-amp setup I was using four of them in mono and throwing a combined 6000watts at my Infinity Kappas. The Crown XLS are great on the mids and highs—tube like, holographic—but for the lows they don’t have the dampening factor to stop the absolutely insanely designed lowend of the Infinity Kappas. Honest I think the Crown XLS 1500 amps are very nice. Try finding a pair of JBL 4408’s or 4406’s and use a Crown or two to drive them. You can get holography in style and on the cheap! |
The other thing I would point out is I hear live symphonic music here in Atlanta at least twice monthly and in my experience live music doesn't sound like the all that focused with regard to image localization of individual instruments as I experienced with the JBL M2's in my note above. The sound in real live seems a bit more diffuse. Absolutely effortless as the power builds in orchestral crescendos. I have been to concerts all over the world at this point in my life and it is true that different concert halls sound "different" with some having more of a burnished/warmish sound than others for example. Of course in concerto recordings, recordings just about any recording, the level of solos in balance against the level of the orchestra is far different from real life in a concert hall unless you're sitting in the first 5 rows. In a recording the solo roles in concertos are usually pumped up much higher and more pronounced than I experience in a concert hall. |
The most holographic imaging I've ever heard has been in a friends JBL M2's. I haven't listened extensively but the thing that is particularly astonishing is the "size" of the localized images of various instruments. This is all in classical music. Rather than even slightly larger than life images the individual instruments seem to be there hanging in space in a way I've never experienced with any other system. Driven by a decent but far from spectacular front end consisting of one of the better Parasound preamps, an Oppo, and these huge digital crown amplifiers that have to be kept in an adjacent room because of fan noise. I need to listen more to that system but off the top of my head it all just seems far too esoteric to me. The aesthetics of those speakers are not my cup of tea and I don't have an adjacent room for the requisite crown amps that also run the dsp crossover/eq of that system. When I first saw it I rolled my eyes a bit but hearing is believing. They are also setup in a great room, great rectangular room, probably 5 feet to the rear wall and maybe 8 feet or more to the side walls. |
I was too lazy and my 185 lb Legacy Focus speakers are too heavy to easily move to the optimal position. So, I tried three positions and left them at 4’ from side walls, 9’ center to center and 5’ from rear wall. I sit 13’ feet from the front of the speaker. The speakers are angled at about 10-12 degrees. This is not ideal. So, over a decade ago I purchased Shakti Hallographs to focus the sound and expand the soundstage. Vocalists and instrument imaging is good but not always "touchable" when the correct Hallograph setting was found. I’ve since added a mid-room pair and installed 32 SR HFTs for diffusion. It works. I have depth and width of soundstage with precise imaging at the speakers and less so in the middle. The problem with either the room or the speakers still exists as to limit the imaging to high end standards. Otherwise, I’m satisfied with the great sound. I’m moving to a new dedicated listening only room (no storage of records). It has no windows, is rectangular and has built in bass traps (carbon filtered absorption paneling) effective down to 30 Hz in 12" deep wall cabinet type stud framing (plus other acoustic design features). If this radically improves the imaging, I will be surprised as I always thought the Focus speakers fault is that they don’t focus/image precisely. I will have to blame the former room then. |
As to room treatments and room corrections.... I have a concrete carpeted floor with another thick throw rug over that. I have some cheap rice papered changing screens and some ‘mass’ in my corners but those are my only room treatments. I found that that once I had proper power going to my woofers and very non-tube-like tube amp for my mids and highs, I no longer needed room correction or room treatments beyond what I have already listed. Everything just worked the way it should. A high current, high dampening amp for your low end is a must. I still have ‘dance club’ bass but it is tuneful, fast, never bloated and it does not interfere with mids or highs. It just takes your breath away sometimes.... I am using Infinity Kappa 8 speaker. A very rare tube amp for my mids and highs and a BAT VK-500 for my low end. The VK-500 with BATPAK is just crazy good! Everyone should enjoy a good holographic setup. It’s like magic! |
I think it is extremely important. I think most recording artists (vs ‘live performers) intentionally work to create excellent holographic images. ...Hendrix, Pink Floyd, NIN. My system will put sounds in your head, behind your head, right next to your ear and sometimes 12 feet away from one of the speakers. Wicked cool. |
Falconquest, I looked over the reviews and specs on your speakers; they sound good, and if I had a spare 5K, I would give them a try. BTW, that's a good price for what they claim to deliver; which is holography that doesn't necessitate a lot of expensive room treatment. (my room treatment is not expensive, and neither is it attractive, but it works) |
If there is anyone here who has not made at least one room treatment, raise your hand? Those cherished bass frequencies mess everything up; that's the place to start by placing bass traps in the corners. I feel like a grade school teacher speaking to a high school class on this post, and I hope that's the case. |
"To that end I think to some imaging is everything. It's often the mark of a better system - rarely do very good/ well put together systems - lack in this respect." That is so true; once I got "holography" tone and timbre were truer. Not one component did I change, not even did I move one speaker; it was all done through room treatment; but don't forget, that was after 30 years of upgrading components and trying for a better image. |
I recall an article - It's all about thee music article in HIFIPLUS years ago and thought what a total load of crap - otherwise we'd all be listening to £20 Walkmans or MP2 players. As you invest more in a system and its' connection to you, you prioritise and prefer certain things - some people are tone sensitive, some rhythm sensitive, some treble - others spatial awareness. To that end I think to some imaging is everything. It's often the mark of a better system - rarely do very good/ well put together systems - lack in this respect. I personally cannot understand thee obsession for high end headphones - they do not image - they can't - Ken Ishiwata explained this succinctly at the High End shows in Hammersmith about how the signal from each speaker arrives at a different time to our ears. Anyway I digress - simply put good imaging is usually a direct correlation to the overall ability of your system, it's coherence, balance and ability |
Holography is nice but not a must. My system images very well and that's enough to keep me seated for hours at a time. I have a garage system comprised of a set of Advents I refoamed and recapped powered by a Sansui SA-7500 integrated with a tablet running Spotify that will give me just as much enjoyment at times. The Advents are hung from the rafters. |
orpheus105,917 posts01-21-2019 12:29pm I’m simply going to think "Styrofoam" for the time being and go from there. Thicker styrofoam covered in speaker cloth with a frame could be made attractive. >>>>>>Styrofoam, the audiophile’s secret weapon! And so attractive! Who woulda thunk? |
Boxer, I have 2x4 styrofoam sheets taped to my sliding glass patio door that I bought from home depot, and it's working quite well; but as you know, room treatment was not the intended purpose. I'm simply going to think "Styrofoam" for the time being and go from there. Thicker styrofoam covered in speaker cloth with a frame could be made attractive. |
orpheus, I agree that speaker placement is a big deal in regard to sound stage reproduction. Spent many hours experimenting with them in the past. They are staying where they are at for now. System sounds great & I'm leaving the cloth over the art (the cloth itself is art so I'm not losing anything there) until I'm done evaluating it. |
Boxer, if you're any kind of an audiophile, you have adjusted you're speakers to the point where you have a good soundstage. This is the basis of "holography"; a good soundstage, once you get it, leave it alone. Holography is based on "The propagation of sound". Since this is too complex for us to understand, forget about it, unless you can hire a professional to treat you're room. The sound waves in you're room is all we're dealing with, nothing more, nothing less. Now, I have incredible holography; the kind that glues you to your listening chair until this is all you want to do. Each record presents something new and different, that also goes for each CD. "Serendipity" the occurrence and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way. "a fortunate stroke of serendipity". I explained this (Serendipity) on another post, it is the reason for my incredible holography; a lot of luck can go a long way. As I stated, I did not touch my speakers, or change one single solitary component; but you must realize, I have been pursuing this for thirty years; that's when I first heard it, 30 years ago. That means I acquired the components that I knew could deliver holography. What I didn't know, is that once that has been done, it's all about the room. |
By your logic, a person sitting in the first row of a concert and ostensibly getting a more “holographic” picture of the sound, is having a better musical experience than someone sitting in the fifth row or tenth row or balcony.Actual concertgoers disagree. They all pay more to sit closer. I've done both. Its no contest. Sitting in the balcony, much as I try to convince myself its just fine, the fact is I can look and see with my own eyes the bow moving on the soloists violin long after the last note has trailed off below hearing way up in the cheap seats. This actually happened. In the acoustic marvel of Benaroya Hall no less. How in the world is it a musical experience at all if you can't even hear it??? |
I had to think way back when I was a kid and got my first record player. What a piece of crap. I listened to Vivaldi, and some Mozart to start with. At the time, the record player, with built in speaker, was housed in a cabinet with a door on it. I soon learned that the position of the door affected the sound, and thus began my life as an experimenter in acoustics, along with electronics all around me. But my point here is that the musical message was somehow available even through that miserable setup. As time went on, and decades later, I bumped into a holographic image with the system that I had at that time, and never let go of the that ideal for my listening. My present listening room is not ideal however, and I must judiciously adopt placement, treatment while all the time being aware of the WAF. |
A couple things. The Trial and Error method of speaker placement - move a little, listen a little - or a random or convenient placement can only result in finding local maximums - at best. There is no reason to fiddle endlessly, nor any benefit. Second, the optimum speaker placement changes as the room is treated over a period of time and should be re-evaluated whenever room acoustics changes. Lastly, most people believe that the best holographic soundstage is achieved by placing the speakers relatively far apart and toeing them in toward the listener. Actually that’s not true at all. Generally, most speakers should be placed relatively close to each other, let’s say for argument sake, five feet. With no toe in. My 2 centavos. |
I'm sure everyone has fiddled endlessly with speaker placement and toe in until they've gotten a satisfactory left, right and center channel image. This will not change when you are attempting to get "holography". We are into "The propagation of sound" when we get into this dimension we call holography. Geoffkait told of some of the professional devices that can be helpful; however, that goes into a whole other realm of study, and expense; I used as much common sense as I could muster along with flat out "luck", and succeeded beyond my wildest dreams. Once holography is realized, it's like entering another dimension in sound and music; tone and timbre sound closer to the actual instruments, the music on old records sounds like new music. I didn't change one component or move one speaker; it was all about room improvements in regard to the propagation of sound. |
Boxer, leave your speakers alone, they are a very critical adjustment that I'm sure you have fiddled with enough times to have them precisely as they should be. Nothing is worse than messing up what you already have right. Increased focus of the soundstage means you are close to having what we're after. Stop and evaluate. |
Boxer12, Often reflective side walls can be conquered by simple, but radical toe of the speakers, with out the need of using ugly treatments on the walls to deaden high frequency reflections. Often, not always. Give it a try if you already haven't. It worked for me. FWIW there are other benefits to this type of speaker set up as well. |
Orpheus10, Your sliding door experience got me thinking about the glass I have over a large piece of art in my listening room. It is also hung on a side wall (much like your sliding door). First I tried a heavy handmade blanket over it. My impression was "who turned up the bass". I belive what was actually happening is it was sucking the highs & some of the midrange out of the room. Didn't like it much. So now I have it covered with light cloth. This is an improvement. Increased bass without the objectionable suck of midrange/highs. This also increased focus of the soundstage. Thank You! |
Orpheus10, You’re absolutely right. It’s a matter of priorities. Although you can’t possibly understand it, it is not necessary for many of us to have a holographic presentation to get the most out of the music. When I was growing up, I got most of the extensive listening repertoire I now have through a table radio. The genius of the music flowed through and inspired me. I didn’t need to have pinpoint sonic accuracy to “get the message.” Striving for sonic perfection is putting the cart before the horse. The music comes FIRST. Enjoy your hobby, but don’t try to convince us that the you can’t get a supreme aesthetic experience without holography. |
Geoffkait, if you read my posts, you will discover that it was "Serendipity" that ultimately got me where am; although I did have other forms of insulation bound in speaker cloth. Since it was partially "luck" that got me where I am, I'm not an authority on how to get here (holography), but I can tell you how sweet it is once you have arrived. Your post sounds very helpful to someone who is trying to achieve the benefits of holography. |
It's impossible for the "musician's message" to be revealed until all is made neutral and clarified; that encompasses all the improvements required to clearly reveal the musicians message; however, to do this requires "work". rvpiano, I interpret your post as stating; "I would rather listen to what I got than work to make it better." |
By the way, to clarify, I’m not suggesting that room treatment is not very important. But in order to actually get the best results, care must be taken to optimize whatever room treatments one decides to employ. Whether it’s acoustic panels, or tiny bowls or Helmholtz resonators or those Shakti Hallographs, or Mpingo discs, or whatever, it’s best to apply these things slowly over time, with the help of test CDs like the XLO Test CD to make sure speaker placement is changed to account for better room acoustics as one goes forward. It’s also very helpful to use a test tone and SPL meter to establish where in the room standing waves, reflection points, echos, etc. exist. Guessing by trial and error, especially when the number of devices in room grows high, can have rather bad results sound wise. You will be lulled into a false sense of security. And your fate will be sealed. 😝 |
After spending many thousands of dollars on equipment over the years, I found it hard to believe that room treatment would improve the audio in my listening room significantly. When people who had the most expensive rigs began to seriously tout "room treatment", I began to take notice; not because they had the most expensive rigs, but because they were the most serious "audiophiles". I know some people take the title "audiophile" as snobbish; I take it as descriptive. If you haven't learned by now that logic is useless in HEA, just keep hanging around. "How can tacking some stuff on the wall give improvement over spending thousands on equipment?" That's not "logical". Here's a link that lets you know how complex this subject really is; http://pages.jh.edu/~virtlab/ray/acoustic.htm Although I started out as being skeptical in regard to the degree of improvement that could be achieved through room treatment, now that I'm enjoying that improvement, I'm a leading proponent of room treatment. Back to the specifics of holography; I would define it as a highly refined sound-stage. While we can get a good sound-stage with "mid-fi" we will not get "holography"; that requires HEA, but even here, the first stage of development is the "sound-stage". If you have holography, "all" of your records will sound better. |
Things are never what they seem. Let’s take SONEX for example, the common grey nicely articulated acoustic foam panels oft found covering the walls of recording studios and frequently used by audiophiles. Newsflash! The problem with SONEX is that even though it appears to be “acoustically transparent” it hurts the sound. A panel cannot be “acoustically transparent” and still be able to absorb or otherwise change the acoustic waves striking it. In the case of SONEX even a panel or two diminishes sound quality, making the sound “phasey” and unnatural sounding. |
This is from another thread that's intrinsically related to this thread; I did a little research and found a site that tells you how to build acoustic panels: http://acousticsfreq.com/how-to-build-your-own-acoustic-panels/ Apparently, fiberglass board insulation at least two inches thick is needed. The sample construction uses 2″ Roxul RHT 80 at $0.78 per square foot. As far as decorative fabric, anything that is acoustically transparent, where the sound can reach the fiberglass. The page suggests putting the fabric up to your mouth and blowing through it to see if air freely flows through it — so I guess the lighter the better. auxinput1,538 posts. 11-07-2017 While there are some who have no idea how important this thread is, I hope those who realize the importance of this thread will utilize the information to improve their rooms, and the pleasure of listening to music after that improvement. |
I don't think that there is any question that most of us have some kind of physical limitations as to where we can place loudspeakers within our chosen room. Given that starting point, the challenge then becomes to find the combination of loudspeakers, electronics, wires, etc. that give us the hologram, tone, dynamics, etc. that really satisfy what we are looking for. With different experiences, different rooms and different ideas of what sound "right", there is probably not a one size fits all solution...but there might be a reasonable starting point...and least that is what this interesting thread is postulating... https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/3038828-how-choose-loudspeaker-what-science-shows.html One final thought...I've pretty much had good sounding systems my whole life...my kids grew up with them. My older son plays acoustic, electric and bass guitar and even when I've offered to give him systems, he declines. Why, he tells me that he has never heard home audio that remotely conveys the sound that he hears...produces...strives for as a musician....so he'd rather just play through his equipment as it is much more satsifying than listening to a recording. |
Well, I am again, late to a thread that has intense meaning to me. I am actually not overstating this, since the idea of getting musicians in my room was a long process, and not one that was continuous, even when complete. I mean to say that recordings, as someone stated earlier in this thread, don't always have the information/miking that needs to be for decent sound reproduction... at least in the way of soundstaging. It's not that I don't enjoy many recordings in spite of their flaws, but am overcome at times when a recording (especially piano) gets it right. Having said this, there are a couple of 'experiments' that have a place in my system from time to time. Off and on, I will use a completely rebuilt Carver C-9 (yes, I can see you in the back, rolling you're eyes). No, it isn't for every recording, I couldn't agree more. Probably the logic comes into line with my ocaissional need to use a good tone control. Way out of audiophilia, and probably some of you are hissing right now ;) I will say this though. Many times, a wonderful soundstage can be had, given the right speaker placement, and room treatment. but that seems to have been more popular back in my bachelor days. |
