I am looking for high powered amplifiers that are truly Holographic..
My speakers are power hungry,
The Audio Research Ref 610T is easily the most holographic amplifier(s) that have ever been in this system.
The solid holographic images moving around the room are nothing short of amazing.
Music just seems to pour out of the speakers.
My "room" is completely untreated and has lots of noise provided by my sub zero fridge and freezer units. My equipment is pretty good, though.
Are there any solid state options that are as good?
My speakers are Magnepan 20.1 Preamp is Audio Research Ref 5 Source is a VPI (both Classic 3 and Aries I) Cart is a Dynavector XV1-s Phono Pre is a Manley Steelhead RC Cables are whatever I bought on Ebay, Power cords (in this system) are generally just normal factory.
(I'm not looking for a white paper discussion on what sonic holography is, or to discuss ancient Carver products.)
Curious about the Ayre MX-R, the Pass XS-300 (but I have no experience whatsoever with either).
Are there any other amplifiers besides the Ref 610T that might be _truly_ worthy of the epithet "Holographic"?.
(If you don't know the difference between soundstaging and holography, this is not the thread for you.)
The Ref 610 isn’t as much of a heat generator as people think they are. With no air conditioner upgrades, it only raises the ambient temp in the room a few degrees. You have to actually own them to know what I mean.
The cables aren't the issue. The cables in the system are doing their job- presenting the music holographically, if the information is in the recording. I see no reason to change them.
The amplifiers are the variable here, and it's really all I am interested in discussing.
I have a Van Alstine hybrid, it is a bit older. It sounds good, but it’s not a contender here.
It is possible that many of you, although audio enthusiasts, don’t know what I am referring to.
Robert Koda K-160 pair for high power for lower power Pass Labs XA25 or First Watt SIT 3. Either of these three amps can and do produce holographic images to an erie degree to the point where my wife says that there is some voodoo going on.
You can get a more holographic image with better cables.
Cables are whatever I bought on Ebay, Power cords (in this system) are generally just normal factory The cables aren’t the issue. The cables in the system are doing their job- presenting the music holographically, if the information is in the recording. I see no reason to change them.
Obviously you have Zero experience with cables and must not think that they make a difference .I promise you they do. If you know it all, why are you asking for help ?
@theduker Let me chip in too, focusing solely on your request, "holographic imaging" & amp. My nominations follow (explanation below):*Vitus (mentioned above), the power amp from their signature series, not the integrated *Soulution: the 710 or, if finances permit, the 711*Spectral: their stereo 300 or the Mono 400 (don't quote me on the numbers...)*(Maybe): Goldmund the basic "Telos 1000", but I think it's best driven by their own pre. It's an excellent performer
Blurb: for audio "holography" you will be best served by amps with very extended high frequencies and enough power to push these frequencies through. Taking into account your current (excellent) amps I think you need top-notch SS with an extended high-frequency response -- i.e. high cut-off point.All this presupposes an extremely revealing pre
I have to agree with the cable recommendations. Some recommend starting with power cables but I say try some speaker cables. For a holographic presentation I would suggest trying Audience Front Row, Cardas Clear Beyond and Shunyata Research Sigma. All are available to borrow from the Cable Company. Yes amps and preamps make a difference and you have some good gear but if you handicap them with generic cables you will never know just how good they can sound.
There exist 3 embeddings for any audio system, 3 dimensions and 3 way for the audio system to interact with his parts and manifest it in sound...
The mechanical resonance-vibrations problem, The electro-magnetic grid of the house and his noise level, The acoustical space of the room in his passive controls and the very important active possible controls.
All good amplifier becomes holographic if these 3 embeddings are taking care of.... That cost peanuts and the audible effect exceed most upgrade of any parts in any system...It is the only things i know ...
The uypgrading myth is not the essential problem in audio it is the accomodation of these 3 embeddings that is.... :)
Holographic is just a word. Like a lot of words audiophiles use to describe sound. I can’t get too hung up on words since everyone has different idea in their heads what words mean. One man’s holographic is another man’s two-dimensional and flat. I understand some people can’t get the sound to escape the confines of the speaker cabinets. If I say the sound is warm or has air some people think it means one thing, others think it means something entirely different.
We begins with a word that has little meaning, expand it with our own experience, and hope that this expansion will be keep on by others...Read with your heart and not only the brain....
« Poetry is the nuclear heart of language, prose is only his fossilized aassemblage » -Groucho Marx
This shouldn’t be this hard. The guy is looking for an ss amp that produces the same effects as his current ARC. All of his reasons are not "mandatory" to be given here but simply important to him. That should be good enough. I feel rh67 has given a "valid response" to the ops question. So lets start what I feel what holography is and see if it is what the op can coincide with. The word "holography" to me is music seemingly NOT coming from the speakers. The sounds seemed more realistic and "organic" in that instruments were actually in the room and placed here and there. Some say "the speakers disappeared" but its more than that. If you felt or heard this then give the guy a valid answer and stop with the flame and emotional baggage stuff. As always and in any forum, someone always has to get bunched up for being "insulted" in some way. That’s on you and not the poster in any fashion.
This is how I did my upgrade lately , my speAkers are Andra 1 Eggleston, 87 db power hungry, my musical fidelity supercharger monos 550 drive the Andra with ease, but not holographic as I would prefer, I replace my speaker cable to TQ Tellurium, Black Diamond, this cable open the soundstage and Iam getting a bit of holographic sound , until I found the Tsakadiris apollon monos amp 150 w , the apollon completely produces the holographic character of my system.
For lower power amps driven by 6L6, 845, 211, 300B, PX25, etc... there are plenty. I run Art Audio 845 monos and the soundstage is extraordinary but they are only 45w and that radically limits what speakers you are going to use them with.
Your caveat of higher power is an interesting one. I have had a very good experience with a pair of VTL MB-185s. Lovely amps and had a dramatic soundstage in triode. Tetrode left something to be desired.
I have a Rogue Hydra. With stock JJs it is an unexciting amp. Put in a pair of NOS Ciftes and it is 90% as good as the VTLs in triode and blows them out of the water in Tetrode. Probably my favorite amp for the money.
In all the above cases I have had these driving my own speakers from Verdant Audio and have used a PS Audio BHK, Ayre K-5xeMP and Art Audio Conductor preamp, all with exceptional results.
The Ayre MXR Twentys were in one of the best systems I have ever heard but in fairness they were driving Wilson Alexx's. How much is the amp, how much is the speakers?
I have also hear the McIntosh MC275s bridged in Mono with a C22 peamp. Admittedly the C22 (especially the phono stage) is the star of that system but it was pretty spectacular sounding driving a pair of Focal Sopra 2s in terms of imaging within the soundstage. Definitely the best I have ever heard Sopra 2s sound.
I have used and currently own the following, Krell KAS (class A) ML 33H (class A/B) AR 150 Vitus SM 101 (sold) Coda S100 (class A) Other amps not worth mentioning. Pass XS 300 (currently using)
Pass XS is better than any of the above!! They run HOT , I've yet to hear a better amp.
Can room treatment assist the rest of the system to create the "holographic" effect already being achieved?
I'm already building quadratic diffusers, next will be absorption and diffusion. And I'm betting I'm going to need a measurement device to be able to ascertain what the room is doing to the sound.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a system more accurately resolving the recording (please don't make this an analogue vs digital debate) in a room that accommodates a good sound, develop a more dimensional sound field?
Hi, you have a system with potential, that from your description is not breathing at the moment, so try first some better cables, both power and signal and see how it goes. Room treatment is the next stage. If you decide to change your power amp then i would agree with @gregm to search for one with a very extended frequency response.
A Brick and Mortar dealer I frequent was a Maggie and Ayre dealer. He demoed the Maggie 20.7 with the Ayre MXR monos, but eventually used the Ayre VX5/20 amp to run them. Using Audience cable the system was holographic and slightly hypnotic. I was considering the MXR, but based on those demonstrations purchased a VX5/20 though I do not use Maggie’s as my space is not appropriate for them.
@ twoleftears Let me have a go with your question. Imaging, in an audio sense, is to be a be able to pick out where a particular instrument or performer is on a given, illusionary sound stage. Usually with the understanding that you are acting as an observer with the "stage" in front of you much like you would experience at an actual venue. Audio holography is a sense that this music is "surrounding you" and not coming from in front of you as if there are no speakers. Sounds are still "imaging" but its as if you are in the middle of a band instead of as a spectator. It’s an uncanny and erie effect and has to do with phase distortion and kind of neat and addicting. Well, that’s my interpretation anyway form my experience. Again in my experience, you have a better shot of achieving this with speakers at least 3 ft away from a rear wall and you are also not sitting with a wall at close proximity, directly behind you. Equipment and placement can certainly all lend to this as well as phase shifted recordings. A lot of Madonna albums come to mind such as in reference to "shifted" recording. Dire Straits with "Money for Nothing’ has a drum riff that appears to move all around you as well. There are a bunch more but just giving you a sense of the idea.
@arro222 My post was intended more as a rebuke to the arrogance of the OP than as a serious inquiry.
At any rate, I don't want music all around me. If I wanted that, I'd get a HT system or play in an orchestra, as I used to do. I want it (mainly) in front of me, where it's supposed to be in a symphony hall.
@twoleftears I don't think that was nice TLE. Your "preferences" should not be part of any platform leaning toward "rebuke" for a simple and matter of fact question by the op in my opinion.
I honesty don't believe that the amp nor the speakers are the problem here. If there exist a problem at all. First question I ask is what exactly is missing (if any) from your experience.
Are you missing dimensional sound? If so, look elsewhere. experiment with cable and other things. Borrow (if you can) a different phono stage. Even a REF 6 pre-amp. There are some very decent cables out there also. you didn't mention what cables you were using. how do you know they aren't the issue if you don't try others?
Hard to tell, because yous system is pretty good as-is. Could be the recordings also.
Get a McCormack DNA500 and have SMC do their upgrades on it and you will have holographic sound that you won't believe. This is a fantastic combination- enjoy!
I think that an amp that is holographic would be one that captures all the natural reverberations of the music. Some amps can deliver and others can't. but it is important to test this out with a good recording that you know contains this information. In addition most quality amps are three dimensional and I would think this should be present as well.
no_money, I would agree that the McCormack amps with upgrades do very well in this area and so do some of the Conrad Johnson amps (both solid state and tube).
Actually a correction, no_money although I believe you are on the money with Arye and it is jwpstayman that mentioned the McCormack amps but both posts I find agreeable.
@twoleftears I am new here but not to hifi. I think those posts you mention were also rude.
I saw no reason to attack the op. There are people who have never heard a "holographic" sound. Having been part owner of 3 stereo shops in a 30 year period, I can attest that there were plenty of people coming in who never experienced this effect.
My "room" is completely untreated and has lots of noise provided by my sub zero fridge and freezer units.
Sup folks,
I’m surprised respondents in this thread hasn’t jumped all over this part. I’ve been using Magnepan MMGs as my mains for the past 16 or so years and through several homes. One thing is for sure the room had a huge impact on the sound overall. His room is untreated, but that doesn’t speak to what’s in it. I’ve found regardless of the furniture and carpeting (which I don’t believe makes as much as a difference with planar speakers), controlling room modes and diffusing the back wave make a big difference. With equipment like what he has, yeah I think better cables are in order, better made cables, I’m not so sure that means $300 a meter, but just something constructed properly to lose the noise and not affect the signal. I’d suggest looking into room treatments before dumping money into a new amp. You might even play with speaker placement some more after you implement the room treatments.
With that said, I’m in a new home in CA and while flutter echo isn’t bad, I’m sure I’ll need to tackle room modes, just waiting on my gear to ship from NY so I can do some testing and have some fun with my old stuff before my Tekton Moabs arrive. I pretty much ordered speakers that are more expensive than the supporting gear but when I had everything setup and tuned right in my last listening room my XPA-2 amp, two polk powered subs and denon receiver (wish I could remember the model) made some magic. I got usable bass to 18hz and solid 20hz with deviations of 3-6 db through 18khz (I can't hear past 18.5khz) in some areas, nothing crazy, I think I got lucky with that space, it was not your usual dimensions or construction.
The wife and I talked about it and before we dump any money into electronics, treating the room will be 1st priority and then work from there. So, I’ll probably spend another $1-1.5k on room treatments (got rid of some stuff before I moved, I didn’t think I’d be using it anytime soon) before I worry about throwing a couple times that on new amplification. I might even look at a better pre-processor before the amp.
TL;DR Treat the room... And maybe put those noisy devices (fridge, etc) on isolating pads, or consider modifying the motor/compressor mounts), I think Herbies Audio Lab is a good place to start looking for isolation pads.
The holographic sound you referred to is from the driver tubes in the amp. I am very familiar with the characteristic. Unfortunately that is actually a non linearity from internal resonances in the driver tubes. You can actually kill a lot of that characteristic if you want by experimenting with different driver tubes. The highly sought after 0TK tubes from the early 1990s will not exhibit that characteristic much yet they are a faster and clearer sound which I prefer in my gear. I have had direct experience with the Maggie as well as my apogee divas. Both want more power always and more is really never enough to get the snap that less hungry speakers have. My friend here in Vegas has the 1200 watt mackintosh monos on his Maggie’s and it just is not enough to let them break free. That is the most powerful amp I have heard on the 3.6r and while not being enough power it also doesn’t have the magic. I cannot think of any amplifier that has the power and magic that you want. All of the amplifiers that are being mentioned are going to be more linear/flatter although they still sound wonderful. ARC amps started getting my attention when they came out with the Classic series in the 90’s and while the 240 had that characteristic the amp that had it the most was the 30 watt one. That was just magic but not a ton of power at all. It’s amazing that the 610t even exists to tell you the truth and you are just not going to find what you want for those speakers in a high power offering with more juice than the 610.
Planar magnetic/ribbon speakers with neodymium magnets are your answer. The sensitivity is just about triple and you get everything you want from it with a lot less power which opens up a whole host of amplifiers. Unfortunately there’s only a few fringe manufacturers offering those. Graz in Australia of Apogee fame offers that as well as a few European ribbon manufacturers but all are multitudes more than the relatively low cost of Maggie’s. I can tell you this, you will spend a ton of money looking for the magic amplifier and will not find it. But the same amount of money that the big Pass or Dart Will cost would be better spent on a higher effiency panel design. There’s just never enough power for the Maggie as long as they are using ceramic magnets.
I have been around audio for many years but in the lower end solid state domain. The most holographic demo I have heard was using VTL amps with a wadia cd player and relatively cheap (11,000) Proac speakers. The resonances and spaciality of the perfomance venues and the players on even quite old recordings e.g. Stevie Ray Vaughan were as a quite startling hologram. After a while I realised that there wasn't the solid state bass slam though, but still an excellent effect. Not sure I want to live with it on a daily basis though.
I have to echo what a lot of others have already advised. About 5 years ago I moved into a new house, and bought new amps and speakers. Initially, I was very disappointed with the stereo imaging, and thought something was wrong. With advice from several audiophile friends, I focused on finding the best speaker placement, then some room treatments (especially some bass traps for my large boomy room), and then upgrade of cables across the board. Those all made such a massive improvement in sound quality, and primarily in giving extremely good imaging with the best pin point "holographic" imaging I have ever had in my system. I know I could switch from ss to tube amps and get more 3D holography, but I don't want the tradeoffs that come with that. However, I know for sure that even if I put in world class ss amps, it never would have given me the "holographic" imaging until I addressed speaker placement, room treatments, and cable upgrades.
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