How important is it for you to attain a holographic image?

Falconquest, I looked over the reviews and specs on your speakers; they sound good, and if I had a spare 5K, I would give them a try. BTW, that's a good price for what they claim to deliver; which is holography that doesn't necessitate a lot of expensive room treatment. (my room treatment is not expensive, and neither is it attractive, but it works)

If there is anyone here who has not made at least one room treatment, raise your hand?

Those cherished bass frequencies mess everything up; that's the place to start by placing bass traps in the corners.

I feel like a grade school teacher speaking to a high school class on this post, and I hope that's the case.

"To that end I think to some imaging is everything. It's often the mark of a better system - rarely do very good/ well put together systems - lack in this respect."



That is so true; once I got "holography" tone and timbre were truer. Not one component did I change, not even did I move one speaker; it was all done through room treatment; but don't forget, that was after 30 years of upgrading components and trying for a better image.

The best thing about holography is that you wont be interested in buying new records, that's because your old records will be new all over again.

Boxer, I have 2x4 styrofoam sheets taped to my sliding glass patio door that I bought from home depot, and it's working quite well; but as you know, room treatment was not the intended purpose.

I'm simply going to think "Styrofoam" for the time being and go from there. Thicker styrofoam covered in speaker cloth with a frame could be made attractive.

Boxer, if you're any kind of an audiophile, you have  adjusted you're speakers to the point where you have a good soundstage. This is the basis of "holography"; a good soundstage, once you get it, leave it alone.

Holography is based on "The propagation of sound". Since this is too complex for us to understand, forget about it, unless you can hire a professional to treat you're room. The sound waves in you're room is all we're dealing with, nothing more, nothing less.

Now, I have incredible holography; the kind that glues you to your listening chair until this is all you want to do. Each record presents something new and different, that also goes for each CD.


"Serendipity" the occurrence and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way. "a fortunate stroke of serendipity".

I explained this (Serendipity) on another post, it is the reason for my incredible holography; a lot of luck can go a long way. As I stated, I did not touch my speakers, or change one single solitary component; but you must realize, I have been pursuing this for thirty years; that's when I first heard it, 30 years ago. That means I acquired the components that I knew could deliver holography.

What I didn't know, is that once that has been done, it's all about the room.

I'm sure everyone has fiddled endlessly with speaker placement and toe in until they've gotten a satisfactory left, right and center channel image. This will not change when you are attempting to get "holography".

We are into "The propagation of sound" when we get into this dimension we call holography.
Geoffkait told of some of the professional devices that can be helpful; however, that goes into a whole other realm of study, and expense; I used as much common sense as I could muster along with flat out "luck", and succeeded beyond my wildest dreams.

Once holography is realized, it's like entering another dimension in sound and music; tone and timbre sound closer to the actual instruments, the music on old records sounds like new music.

I didn't change one component or move one speaker; it was all about room improvements in regard to the propagation of sound.

Boxer, leave your speakers alone, they are a very critical adjustment that I'm sure you have fiddled with enough times to have them precisely as they should be. Nothing is worse than messing up what you already have right.

Increased focus of the soundstage means you are close to having what we're after. Stop and evaluate.

Since "holography" is the last stage of development in the audio progression, there is a possibility that it's not relevant in your stage of progression.

Geoffkait, if you read my posts, you will discover that it was "Serendipity" that ultimately got me where am; although I did have other forms of insulation bound in speaker cloth.

Since it was partially "luck" that got me where I am, I'm not an authority on how to get here (holography), but I can tell you how sweet it is once you have arrived.

Your post sounds very helpful to someone who is trying to achieve the benefits of holography.

It's impossible for the "musician's message" to be revealed until all is made neutral and clarified; that encompasses all the improvements required to clearly reveal the musicians message; however, to do this requires "work".

rvpiano, I interpret your post as stating; "I would rather listen to what I got than work to make it better."

After spending many thousands of dollars on equipment over the years, I found it hard to believe that room treatment would improve the audio in my listening room significantly.

When people who had the most expensive rigs began to seriously tout "room treatment", I began to take notice; not because they had the most expensive rigs, but because they were the most serious "audiophiles". I know some people take the title "audiophile" as snobbish; I take it as descriptive.

If you haven't learned by now that logic is useless in HEA, just keep hanging around. "How can tacking some stuff on the wall give improvement over spending thousands on equipment?" That's not "logical".

Here's a link that lets you know how complex this subject really is;


    http://pages.jh.edu/~virtlab/ray/acoustic.htm


Although I started out as being skeptical in regard to the degree of improvement that could be achieved through room treatment, now that I'm enjoying that improvement, I'm a leading proponent of room treatment.


Back to the specifics of holography; I would define it as a highly refined sound-stage. While we can get a good sound-stage with "mid-fi" we will not get "holography"; that requires HEA, but even here, the first stage of development is the "sound-stage".

If you have holography, "all" of your records will sound better.

This is from another thread that's intrinsically related to this thread;


     
I did a little research and found a site that tells you how to build acoustic panels:

http://acousticsfreq.com/how-to-build-your-own-acoustic-panels/

Apparently, fiberglass board insulation at least two inches thick is needed. The sample construction uses 2″ Roxul RHT 80 at $0.78 per square foot.

As far as decorative fabric, anything that is acoustically transparent, where the sound can reach the fiberglass. The page suggests putting the fabric up to your mouth and blowing through it to see if air freely flows through it — so I guess the lighter the better.
auxinput1,538 posts.
11-07-2017


While there are some who have no idea how important this thread is, I hope those who realize the importance of this thread will utilize the information to improve their rooms, and the pleasure of listening to music after that improvement.

It's always good to know who's speaking; I'm a music lover first and foremost, I am not an equipment lover. I mention ARC because so many people are familiar with the sound of ARC; it's highly definitive.

I like CJ preamps, and ARC power amps. Although I mention those names, I wont necessarily buy that brand, but I will buy something close to that sound, the same as a musician is shooting for a certain "sound"; one that will give him the tone and timbre he's looking for.

Newbee's seek these elements, tone and timbre in speakers, but to me, they exist in everything; my rig is tuned to deliver what the musician is saying.

Everyone seems to want speakers that sound like this, that or the other thing. My speakers emit precisely whatever sound the amp feeds them. In the beginning, no one ever wants this, but after many years, you want every nuance the musician is blowing; nothing more or less.

In my beginning, as a young man, I had musician friends I ran with; consequently, I lived the same life they lived (almost any way, I had to go to work in the morning) At any rate, the music I listened to was live at the nightclubs. People who listen to recorded music have no idea how much of a musicians life is in his instrument of choice.

You may not know it, but when you put that record on, what you really want to hear, is that musician, not your equipment. My heightened awareness of this makes it necessary to fine tune all my equipment to deliver the "facts"; "The facts maam, nothing but the facts", inquired Sgt. Friday.

A musician has spent his entire life learning how to express himself on his instrument; do I want to hear Conrad Johnson or the musician; with a little fine tuning, me and CJ work it out. No, I'm not a casual enthusiast.

"Accentuate the positive, and eliminate the negative"; that will be my motto this year, life is too short to get embroiled in negative harangues.

This is a very important and complex subject; especially if you want to exploit the full potential of recorded music.

My recommendation is to go back over the posts and retain all the positive information while rejecting the negative; this will be extremely beneficial if you want to achieve "holography".

Kosst, I agree 100%; "Holography" is a refinement of sound staging and imaging.

Sometime ago, I noted that audiophiles who were in the "end game"; meaning they might mention "van den Hul Grasshopper" as their current cartridge without being ostentatious; it would be in the context of the discussion. It was I who made a note of this fact because it gave me a strong clue in regard to the other components in their rig.

They had gone as far as they could go in regard to equipment, and they still were not satisfied; that's when they went to room treatment and got the improvements they were seeking.

The reason I don't talk too much about everything else required to get holography, is because I have made the false assumption that you know all that is required, and you realize that "room treatment" is the end game; my bad.

I think I've stated everything I know of importance in regard to holography. If anyone wants to advance the audio in their listening room on the cheap, I suggest they go to this thread; DIY acoustic panels?

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said, "elephant is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

Since none of us can see sound waves bouncing around our listening room, we are all blind. If we all had the same identical equipment, including interconnects, we would all hear differently as a result of our different listening rooms.

"Holography" is not a trick pony, it is the "result" of correcting room anomalies by first recognizing, and then treating them. Once this is done, you will note a marked improvement in tone and timbre of acoustic instruments.

When people go as far as they can in regard to topflight components, and are still not satisfied, that's when they discover the room is at fault; after they correct this problem, that's when they retreat to audio Nirvana.

When I first posted on this thread, I didn't even have holography, now that I got it, I'll be doing more listening and less posting.

Once you get holography, it's easy to make it "Mo-better", all you need is "Mo-money"; a lot more.

Let me explain; audio holography is quite similar to visual holography, and the better the lens and camera, the better the photograph.

I'm a casual photographer who has always used middle of the line Pentax; however, if I used Leica, my photographs would be much sharper. A Pentax costs a few hundred while a Leica costs several thousand; that explains why I have Pentax.

For my ears, the huge price differences between class A+ and Class A are worth it, if you can swing it.

Now that I have holography, "everything" is better. We are at the end of the line on this thread and apparently there are a few people who don't even know what holography is; that's quite apparent by their comments, but as long as their happy, I revel in their happiness.

If I understand orpheus10 (correctly), I believe he has been saying that "holographic imaging" is an outcome or result of the ’fundamentals’ coming together and when this occurs, the whole is much, much greater than the parts.

Removing imaging, therefore, implies other parts are not present or not correct or not functioning as they should.

David, that is precisely what I am saying; "Holography" is dependent on the highest quality parts, the same as the sharpest photographic image is dependent on the best lens, no different.

If we were in a "high end emporium" where we had, as an example; top of the line ARC electronics, top of the line Thiel speakers, all set up in a room that had been professionally treated, to the extent that it created an image so precise, that you "saw" and heard things from a record that you bought in 1970 (one of your favorites), that you had not heard before.

I said "saw", because when a sound consistently comes from a point in space, I know it's there, and if I could see audio, I would see it.

Am I claiming to know more than everyone else; "No", but I am claiming to have witnessed more than most, for one very simple reason; I went to "high end emporiums", where the stuff you read about in "Stereophile" was being auditioned. In a flash, you would be able to hear the difference substituting one component would make in the whole scheme of things.

As an example; when there were no customers requesting components to audition, we (me and the other audiophile sales people) would assemble the very best components and just groove in the small auditioning theater. I recall we were deep into Santana's "Abraxas" and I was focusing on a sound emanating from some kind of percussive instrument that I hadn't heard before, when a customer came in requesting to audition a Rotel amp.

After the Rotel amp was inserted, whatever I was listening to receded so far in the back ground that it was hardly audible.

I would say that Rotel amps are good, high quality "affordable" Class C amps. The key word here is "affordable", which is not a word that accompanies top of the line high end; at least not affordable for the average person.

Keep in mind, that was the only component that was swapped, we still had ARC preamp, plus top of the line Thiel speakers. That one component blew the holography, it was fuzzy after that, but the music still sounded good, just not to the highest degree.

Imagine; you are reading "Stereophile" and you wonder; "What does this sound like matched with that". In a high end emporium, a salesperson could simply insert it into the mix, and your question would be answered.

I spent so many hours in high end emporiums that my wife swore I was seeing another women.

"No", I'm not smarter than many of the people here, but I have heard and experienced things many haven't.

As hard as it is to get perfect imaging, I don't think you will have a hard time sacrificing what you don't already have.

Although there is no getting around the fact that at this level audio is expensive, I save when and where I can.

Sometime ago, I noted that the very well heeled who had pretty much perfected their rigs to their satisfaction, were into room treatment, and they claimed that's where they got their biggest improvement. What I have discovered confirmed that.

It's kind of funny how I got my biggest "holographic improvement" by insulating a sliding glass door from the elements; I charged myself a fortune, just to make it Kosher.

fleschler, I didn't know they were in abundance; that explains the relatively cheap price. Since I have several pieces of equipment that can use them I will stock up.

We have a tendency to think more expensive things sound better; I needed a 12AU7 and found one that didn't have the brand on it; just 12AU7 made in the USA. I put it in and was shocked at how good it sounded, I believe it sounded as good as a NOS Mullard, which costs much more.

If we judge by the audio alone, as opposed to the name, we can save a lot of money.

Rvpiano, this tube sounds like a Mullard, and plays over it's price.


I believe NOS last longer. The decision has to be made as to how much of the price increase is due to rarity, as opposed to how good the tube sounds. You can get a lot of bang for the buck through tubes.


12AU7 RCA Cleartop (side getter),SPECIAL MATCHED PAIRS

New Old Stock Original Box and White Box. A great tube that rivals West Europe types, making it a great buy at this price. Some say the side getter contributes to the low microphonics of this tube. Wonderfully balanced airy highs, midrange warmth, and accurate bass. These pairs have been carefully hand selected for close dynamic mutual conductance on a Hickok 539A. I have sold dozens of pairs of these, and clients agree this tube is an incredible bargain among NOS tubes. Stock up now, this tube is vanishing from the market just like the Telefunken smoothplates!

$69.00 per pair

BTW I have on order 2 Telefunken Black Diamond ECC82 / 12AU7 from TubeDepot for $96. To be shipped in 2 to 4 weeks because they're out of stock.

Boxer, music is a narcotic, and my listening room is now an opium den; I go into a state of euphoria when I can pinpoint instruments in space and focus on specific sounds that just hang in one spot, or like in Herby Hancock's "Rain Dance" where weird sounds are constantly popping out of space and moving all over the place,  I'm in another galaxy.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2hK6_o5Pdw


There is no past, there is no future; just one glorious present, the summer is light years away.

Serendipity continues or "Holography part II"; take your choice of titles for this post.

After I taped the insulation to the glass door in order to conserve heat, when I settled back into the sweet spot for a long listening session, the sound-stage was balanced. (the insulation on the door served as perfect room treatment) It had never been balanced before; the right channel was louder than the left channel, and turning the left channel up was not a good solution for holography.

A balanced sound-stage is essential for this phenomenon, now that I had it, I couldn't stop listening; instruments floating in air, non existent speakers, everything there is to be had with good holography was mine; this is the end of the line for me, my quest is over.

"Serendipity", there is an interesting word. It's so unique that the definition is insufficient; therefore, I will illustrate serendipity.

There is a problem with my sound-stage; the right channel is louder than the left. At first I thought it was the equipment, after a lot of troubleshooting, I discovered that wasn't the problem.

The left side of my listening room is composed of a huge sliding glass door to the patio; that was the problem, a glass wall is bad news. That wasn't the only problem with that glass wall.

The sliding glass door is single pane glass, (no good for the winter) and I want double pane glass. For reasons I have yet to understand, contractors can't replace the door.

I was listening to music, and at the same time, I could feel the winter chill coming right through that huge single pane door; unpleasant, and bad for the heating bill, something had to be done.

I went to Home Depot, bought some foam insulation, came back and taped it all over the door. Now, I can't get to the patio, but who needs a patio in the winter.

Covering that huge door with insulation was work; time to settle back in the sweet spot and do some serious listening. Is it my imagination, or does my sound-stage sound balanced. Wow! I can't believe it; that insulation over the glass door corrected the channel imbalance.

Now that's "Serendipity".

Newbee, "All" of the tubes I mentioned were Telefunken; they were NOS and brand new tubes, that had identical numbers.

There is a thread here where knowledgeable people discussed this very same thing extensively; comparing NOS tubes, to identical brand new tubes; maybe it could be looked up. I don’t remember all of the conclusions they came to, but from what I can recall the difference was one of quality as opposed to sonics.

I bought the brand new tubes, and I was delighted, now I'm buying some more.  Since quality is a long term thing, that remains to be seen.

The NOS lasted longer than any tubes I ever had, so there is something to be said for quality control.

How long these new tubes last remains to be seen.  

Piano, Brent Jessee's 6922's are $300. All these Telefunken tubes have the same exact numbers, including the new ones. His 12AU7's are also $300.

Nobody is cheating anybody, it all makes sense; NOS tubes cost more, even when the new and the old were made at the same factory. As best as I can figure it out, someone bought the old factory and began making the identical tubes.

From what I can recall in regard to discussions on these tubes, quality control was better then, even though the tubes look identical.

As I stated, the new tubes are fantastic; one was bad, and they had a good one on it's way before I got off the phone. That was months ago, and now I'm happy with no complaints.

Presently, the new tubes are sold out. Someone would have to buy both and compare to make a determination. Since I don't have the spare cash, it won't be me; I'm going to buy the new ones when they get them in stock.

Piano, I went to Uncle Kevin at "Upscale" audio, whose price was $349.00


      https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/telefunken-e88cc-6922

I need both 6922 and 12AU7; now I think I'm going to buy 12AU7. Will go to Brent Jessee and get back to you.

Piano, they have new tubes that are identical to the NOS Telefunkens. Of course the new tubes are much cheaper. I bought two of the new tubes, and one was bad. When I told them about it, they had another tube on the way before I got off the phone. That was at Tube Depot.

The new tubes sound fantastic; how much better the NOS sound, I don't know. Could you mull that over and get back to me.

I plan to buy 10 tubes, and the difference in price is significant.

Piano, it's interesting that you should mention Telefunken.  Recently, I replaced some 6922's in a phono-pre with Telefunken, and they kicked it up a big notch.

I had been using NOS Mullards on the CJ, and I was satisfied, but I might be more satisfied with the Telefunken.

Thanks for the tip.

Manitas music has "soul" that you can feel, and that does it for me.

That guitar of Manitas looks like it has seen some tough times; maybe that's what makes the best Flamenco?

Boy am I lucky; this is one of the rare times that I have been on a thread with guys that I feel can give good advice.

Two 12AU7's are going bad on my CJ in the bedroom, and I'm hoping someone can give me some recommendations.

Fusian, I don't think anyone here would disagree with your post.

While we appreciate top notch equipment, and strive to make everything as good as we possibly can; there is nothing more important than the music. 

Oregon, I saw this on "youtube" and I thought I would post it. I always buy records new, hate any kind of scratches; I will find his music on amazon; thank you.


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2NUQm3CzuA


I love Flamenco.

Yes Newbee, I am always interested in test records that will help me optimize my system; the record would be preferred.

I've never seen a record with "holographic image stamped on it".  I've never bought a record specifically for "holographic image"  with out consideration for the music.

As much as I enjoy it when it occurs, everything is still about the music.  Although most of us want our rigs to be able to produce this when it's on a record,  we buy records for the music we like, not for holographic image.  That's like only buying records for excessive bass.

Most of us realize the "relativity" of all the elements being discussed.

The only way you can get everything you want in a speaker is to do it yourself. While that was impossible for me to do alone, I discovered a crossover design engineer who could help me. He was about as eccentric as anyone I have ever encountered.

Since I’m a do it yourself technician, I was shopping at a speaker store that sold high quality wire of all compositions, and any kind of drivers that you wanted. Me and the owner had become quite well acquainted, and I told him about my new project. That’s when he told me about his new engineer that he would introduce me to if he was in. (if he’s your engineer, why don’t you know whether or not he’s in)?

This is where things really got interesting. The owner took me to the room where the engineer was working; it was a darkened room where the engineer was peering into a computer screen that had two solid colored, red and green, geometric figures with numbers on them that he was moving around on a screen. (how can you have pictures of a solid cone and sphere on a flat screen?)

After I was introduced, he said "Hi", just barely turning around, and went back to moving his figures with the numbers on them around the screen.

That’s when I realized he wasn’t the talkative kind, and I went to blabbing about what I wanted. I had read every thing I could find about "crossovers" in the library, In "Audio" magazine, in "Stereo Review", in the UK magazines, and in "Stereophile".

I went on and on while I assumed he was listening, but he didn’t give much indication that he was. I told him Theil was the closest speaker I had auditioned that I could use as an example, but I wanted to also incorporate an AMT driver. That’s when he responded (at last I knew he had listened)

"That’s not going to be easy. You say you want a 3 way with a 12 inch woofer and a 6 inch midrange with a AMT tweeter. Come back in two weeks".

The owner said, "I think he likes you", when I left. How he could tell, I don’t know; maybe it was because I had communicated that I knew something about crossovers.

After two weeks, he showed me his drawing on paper. The owner told me he would have the crossover together in two or three weeks. When I returned, there it was; 3 separate crossovers; one for the tweeter, one for the midrange, and one for the woofer; a total of 6 crossovers, one for each driver in two speakers.

This is the way it went; They gave me the parts, and it was up to me to put them together; but I knew his crossover would be magic.

After I built a cabinet, put it all together and listened; I went back and told the engineer about something I thought should be changed. He told me he would crack my knuckles if I changed anything, and he wasn’t smiling. If his convictions were that strong, I wasn’t about to change anything.

That was sometime in 1990, and since then, I have switched to the highest quality parts, plus I don’t know how many modifications to the cabinet; but I have not changed one single value of any part, and I couldn’t be happier.

Everybody seems to think "holography" is some kind of trick; no, it's when you put HEA audio, and the room together as well as it can be done.

Are top of the line Theil speakers, trick speakers?  Are top of the line tube ARC Amplifiers, trick amps?

While I used those two names,  substitute any very high quality components you like, and you can probably get the same results.

Once it's done right, everything that everyone mentioned that is desirable will be present.

The record or CD delivers whatever it delivers; but it's for sure that you will get every iota of what there is on the record or CD.

In regard to "holography"; while it is relatively rare, meaning you reach out and touch each musician, I have heard it to the extent, that I heard sounds from a CD of a record that I purchased in 1970, that I have worn out many copies of; it is almost my favorite record.  (my favorite record changes every other day)  But I have been listening to this one long enough to be very well acquainted with it, and I heard something in the background that I had barely heard before; plus it was suspended in space. 

That had to be close to extreme as it can get; no tricks, just high quality components in the chain that were arranged by professionals, in a room that had been designed and treated by "professionals".

What's your secret Geoffkait?  I would like for mine to be near the ceiling, but it's not.

Normally, I mix and match, but if I was going to buy any of this weird expensive stuff, I would buy their complete system; go whole hog or none at all; "Run with the giant dogs or stay at home"; give me your best euphemism.

     http://www.unitedhomeproducts.com/mbl_prices.htm

Speakers, speakers, speakers; everyone acts like sound just magically appears with a pair of expensive speakers. Well, we all know it doesn't quite work like that.

When I mentioned expensive speakers, I was thinking of MBL, but not the top of the line; also I believe they require the MBL amp, not just this one but all MBL speakers, to work best.



          http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2010/01/x-tremely-x-pensive-speakers/

Fleschler, probably none of our systems are identical, and yours can do things mine wont do.

Yeti, I know it's possible to have a very wide "sweet spot", but very expensive; I don't have it, mine is the same as yours.

Newbee, you are right, there are not so many and I listen to music the same as someone with a one box player; I listen for music, not holography.

You asked if I ran across a recording that displayed holography, to clue you in. Here's a record that displays it, and it's just a record that I bought before CD.

Weather Report, "Black Market" was recorded in 1975, and it was released by Columbia Records. It's fusion; hope you can find and enjoy it.

Oregon, I was a teenager staying with my older cousin, who was a jazz collector, in Chicago when Clifford Brown was killed in a car accident.

Clifford Brown and Max Roach Quintet was my favorite album, and "Delilah" was my favorite cut. It was after I had gotten attached to Clifford's music that he was killed; this was heart breaking.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePoc



        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/25/AR2006062500962.html?nav=rss_print/s...