RVpiano, d2girls beat me to it, but for the record, if it ain't in the recording it's never going to come out of your speakers, and it is rarely in the recording. Now if you happen to have such a recording (such as Depth of Image by Opus 3) electronics with good dynamics and low level resolution, and a well set up system, you can have what you would like.
I don't expect to get that level of sound staging in my home and just don't listen for it (anymore) - I just listen to the music. That is why I came to the party in the first place.
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Gulpson, A fair observation, but to make this omission of a warranted moniker change worse, I've been posting here since about 2002! I think a lot of folks have not bothered with my posts. Who would want to take advise from a newbie. :-) |
RV Piano, In that same vein, I first heard holographic imaging in a medium sized demo room at a dealers. They had a CJ 5 preamp driving a Threshold SA amp, driving a pair of smallish Thiel 4’s (preceding the CA series) using a Oracle TT (I don’t recall cartridge) and playing Opus Three "Depth of Image" which has a cut where there is a small group playing pan pipes. If you closed your eyes you could feel that you could walk on stage amoungst the players just as you could if this all occurred in your living room with real players. Obviously I was so impressed I still recall most of the detail. FWIW although for years this was a goal I never achieved it in my music room. I have a long list of the reasons why. :-) |
FWIW, I was wrong about the Carver - Reading about BACCH tickled my memory. Carver's unit has all to do with cross talk cancellations, not phase issues. FWIW. |
Peterprvk, Re the Hafler loop - I agree that this can have a very pleasant encompassing effect. I believe that it really is not much more than reproducing out of phase sounds thru separate speakers using the same amp as used in the front speakers but you need a separate attenuator to get the right volume level (came in Hafler's box). Its simple and as far as I'm concerned, while not as sophisticated as most multichannel systems, it is effective and you don't have nearly the set up issues. For other reasons I chose to use only 2 channel systems, mainly because I'm not inclined to fiddle with placement and volume issues every time I put on a recording and more inclined to just listen to the music not the effects.
Interestingly Carver had a shot at holography which I tried out back in the day. The first thing I noticed, and it blew me away, was in a cut when the audience applauded a performance it placed you in the audience, as opposed to hearing all of the applause in front you. But it really became more of a distraction than a benign additive and I lost interest. This black box I believe was doing nothing much more than playing with phase issues.
One of the problems with max'ing out the soundstaging potential is when a recording is made, which includes all of the ambiance sounds in the recording environment, is that these sounds when reproduced thru your system can be in conflict (confused) by the ambiance in your room. For example if you have a recording with lots of ambiance and you play it in a bright room you are hearing neither of them any where near accurately. (Interestingly though, if you played a recording with all of the recording ambiance encoded and played it back in a 'dead acoustic' I think most folks would find it dead/dull as well. We have become quite adjusted, I think, to hearing the recording's ambiance when it is superimposed on the room acoustic (we know our rooms that well).
Anyway, that's all I know. :-) |
I think it would be helpful if those who have created this optimum imaging in their own home (called holographic) would list the recordings they have heard which can reveal this imaging. FWIW, I think there are not so many, but it would be fun, for me at least, to have some recordings so I could play them on my system and see how far I have progressed in setting up my system, which images quite well, but not yet perfectly, I think. |
rvpiano, I too find that smaller forces 'image' better than large orchestral ones, probably due to the relatively simpler recording procedures that can be used. What I miss in my system that I experience live is a room 'fullness' caused, I believe, by reflections, which are hard to recreate in your home without over driving your room. For me that balance is hard to acquire and I think that my experience is not unique and explains why multi-channel set ups are initially popular (at least for a while). |
yeti42 It helps to widen the sweet spot if you turn your speakers inward so the axis' crosses in front of your head when you are in the sweet spot. |
Amazing isn’t it that you heard this effect on your ’in polarity’ system. Or did you hear it on one with reverse polarity? Or did you hear it at all? Maybe my old system also had reverse polarity, ergo why this record sounded so fine, and on my present system, not so much. :-)
Re Proprius labels - I don’t own any so I don’t know. I understand that they did make a recording of some ’bar jazz’ a lot of folks like. Go figure.
The label on which ’Depth of Image’ appears is Opus 3.
BTW for anyone interested there is a brief commentary on Opus 3 and this disc in Dagogo in 2012.
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"I've never seen record with holographic image stamped on it ……"
Opus 3 has a disc titled 'Depth of Image', which can excel at portraying a 'holographic image', but it is so good unless you have already heard it under optimum conditions, you might just think your system is already there. This record is one of the few I've heard. Each cut on the record (and while on CD I vastly preferred it on vinyl) has a description of what you should hear if your system is optimized. If you are really interested....:-)
I agree with your 2d paragraph -
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Orpheus10, This may be of absolutely no help to you at all, but Telefunken machinery was purchased by EI ('yugos') before the 'war' and they made tubes with the sonic signature of the Tele's. I've used 12AU7A as well as 12AX7a, the latter of which I like a lot, especially the one with the long grey plate. My experience with the AU is modest.This sonic signature appeared in their 6dj8 as well. Unfortunately they are hard to find but if you do they will likely cost quite a bit less. FWIW. |
Orpheus10, Out of curiosity, what is the brand of the 'new' tube? |
+2 geoffkait.
I think most folks have not actually heard a system with a potential to reproduce ’real’ holographic soundstage, just as I think there are dammed few recordings which contain the necessary information to produce one.
orpheus10,
"let me explain; audio holography is quite similar to visual holography, and the better the lens and camera the better the photograph."
As with your comments on audio holography it is hard to argue the basic premise of your statement, however I would suggest that, as in photography, the experience of the audiophile is far more relevant than the quality of the equipment. Nothing is funnier than a ’photographer’ with his Nikon and a bag full of lenses who doesn’t know more about his hobby than how to take snap shots of his kids (if that).
rvpiano, "....revel in their ignorance"
Just as some might revel in his.....:-) Witness his own posts.
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rvpiano, I treat the term 'ignorant' as a pejorative one, and would typically use 'uninformed' in its place if I had to use any at all.
You’ve never posted anything that caused me to think in that context when reading your posts. I saw your posts as those of someone interested in this hobby who had, as we all do, certain constraints which limit them in obtaining all that is available, yet still enjoyed discussing the matter at hand in an open and frank manner, absent pomposity and pretentiousness.
Don’t take me, or my opinions and observations, too seriously, I don’t. :-)
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rvpiano, FWIW, I don’t understand why I would need to apologize to you. The comments in my 1/13/19 post certainly could be construed by someone as negative, but they were not directed toward you. At least that was not my intent. In fact I thought I was agreeing with your earlier observations about Orpheus10’s post, i.e. your substituting ’ignorance’ in place of his term ’happiness’. Should I have been more explicit? Enlighten me if you wish. |
rvpiano, For the sake of clarity, consider that in my ’offending post’ I was directly addressing Goeff, Orpheus10, and yourself, separately. In my comment to you I said "just as someone might revel in his.....",meaning Orpheus10 .Should I have intended this to refer to you I would not have used "his", I would have used ’you or your’. I was trying to convey a contempt, much broader based than yours I think, assuming you were contemptuous at all, but erred in piggy backing on your comment. I should not have done this. For this I do apologize. Sincerely.
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Boxer12, Often reflective side walls can be conquered by simple, but radical toe of the speakers, with out the need of using ugly treatments on the walls to deaden high frequency reflections. Often, not always. Give it a try if you already haven't. It worked for me. FWIW there are other benefits to this type of speaker set up as well. |
