Finally Learned: Subs serve much larger role than adding more low bass


I sold my older powered sub a while back. reasons-

1. It did not integrate well.

2. I was pretty satisfied with my 2 speakers bass output.

3. Was big, heavy and ugly.

After traveling around the counrty and listening to home systems put together by people who know their way around the industry I realized they all have something I did not. A well integrated bass array.

So what does a bass array add to a 2.0 system?

This is where words fail but I will try:

-Increased Involvement in the listening experience

-More enjoayble sound stage

So if you are like I was, a sub denier, I suggest you try one small

sub, as I did, and see what you experience. My $500 REL T5x experience

did it for me. Now I will buy a second one.

 

chorus

Besides adding some lower frequencies that your main speakers are not capable of, really the main reason for subs is to relieve the largest speakers in your main speakers of having to reproduce the lower frequencies that they can produce and allow them to focus on the midrange.  If anyone is adding a sub or cranking up the bass just to get that chest thumping experience, I can almost guarantee that their music is out of balance without knowing much more.

Now that I have become an "Enlightened One" insofar as having recognizedd

the highest and best reason to use subs, it is starting to bother me when I hear a reviewer counsel someone that a given speaker "May need a subwoofer". 

They all need subs so please just say "The bass sucks on these speakers"

I wanted the model that the driver faced down as it may live

in harms way. Practical solution I thought.

I bought the baby T5X while REL ran a promotion last month.

After hearing it asked the dealer for a second one but

he was sold out. Good news is when he gets another one

they honor the sale price!

Follow-up- the T9/X arrived and it’s hell of a lot bigger than the T-zero. I’ve yet to dial it in fully but the amount of resonance generated by this thing is epic, even at low volume. I placed it on a 1.5” granite slab which helped tame it somewhat. I’m also limited to 1 spot for placement, I’m thinking I might have bitten off more than I can chew here. I’m gonna need to do some real fine tuning over the weekend.

Yes. And transforming my little listening room into a large concert hall sure sounds like some kind of magical atmospheric enhancement to me!

at the end of the day all a subwoofer does is provide sub bass and some tapering bass and midbass frequencies. 

they are not some kind of magical atsmopheric enhancement machine. 

the frequencies you hear are those generated in a large concert hall environment and were previously lacking without the sub.  those frequencies create the magic of the ambience and spaciousness.  

 

I've an array in my future....
I'll have to get there, but I can be remarkably patient...;)

My omnis will demand it, FGS....;)

Yes to all the positive replies. I was thinking my speakers are big enough(dual 15's) that I don't need them. Also running 600 watt monoblocds.... shouldn't need a sub... good bass still missing. Not the perfect system, but should give me the bass I need???? NO!  
Added two SVS SB-3000 non ported subs and I'm DONE! Everything I was missing is there now. 

The PSRs have been solid as a rock.

Richard gave me Hell when I sent him one of the mid-range drivers was toasted - he thought I had abused his speaker (it was really one of the mono Classe amps having a seizure and sending out a pulse that annihilated the driver. He rebuilt it for me though.

@wspohn Wow, cool. The model 4 are getting long in the tooth and i believe no replacement drivers available. RV still use the same basic architecture of powered bass in the sub 3 and Quattro and up floor standers…because as noted it works ! Newer models include 11 bands of EQ below 120 hz. You should join us over on the Vandy owners forum…pictures of the model 4 would be a cool hit there…

Best to you

Jim

I think Richard was on the right track - roll the bass off for the mids and highs, which won't be affected by frequencies they can't reproduce well anyway, and use the electronic unit simply to adjust gain on the bass frequencies to suit the output of the mids and highs.

Nice to hear of other 4 or 4A owners - pretty thin on the ground today. I've owned mine for many years and they are just too good to sell despite my having two other systems more current and also giving excellent sound.

My Vandersteen system is over top 1990s vintage - amplified by a pair of PSE Studio IV monos on the bass, and twin mono Classe DR-3 VHC (at around 110 lbs each), biwired for mids and highs (with Classe DR7 preamp and Classe DAC1 D/A).    A 'high Classé system  ;-)

@wspohn

Correct on all points. I didn’t want to try to explain that stuff, which gets tricky.

In conversation with Richard Vandersteen, he admitted that the electronic crossover, while sonically ideal for the subs, was less than ideal for the mid & upper drivers. I asked if he could mod mine to make it sound better, and he said, "It makes no sense for me to drop everything to mod a crossover, which would cost a lot to do anyway." I liked the direct way the man spoke...

If I still had the 4s, I would get a high-quality aftermarket crossover by Marchand electronics and purchase 6 dB/octave slope frequency boards set at 80 Hz, high pass and low pass. That would be perfect. I have a different Marchand crossover in my desktop system (this model has variable frequency crossovers and uses 24 dB/octave slopes), and I can tell you it's very transparent. 

Anyway, that’s the way I think of it now. Back in the ’80s I ran my 4s exactly as you describe and was in love with that sound...all aspects of it were ideal for me.

@desktopguy

I use Vandersteen 4As in my third system and the provision for low bass goes further with them than with most speakers - a separate crossover to control volume of low bass, a couple of high quality capacitors to roll the bass off from the mid/.high drivers and separate amplification - once properly set up it does work very well.

Not many of those speakers out there and a great bargain today if you can find them.

Added 2 REL S/5 SHO with their longbow wireless to Maggie 3.7i's.  I don't have to worry about placement except for the AC power, no speaker wires to the subs.  Opens up the soundstage, very clean and detailed bass.

The wireless SMPS's are noisy and I had to take them off the dedicated lines as they were injecting a lot of noise.  Made much worse by upgrading to iFi Power X, now I know why iFi sells DC power purifiers.

My first experience with subs was memorable. I got a used pair of Vandersteen 4’s, large 4-way speakers with a powerful integrated sub built into the base of each speaker. Each sub (located in its own enclosure with a slotted port) consisted of 2 x 12" metal cone woofers linked together with a steel bar. That design produced the best bass I ever heard from floorstanders. And FWIW, I would never have a modern ported sub in my system now, but those Vandy ported subs sounded incredibly musical.

Years later my audio system is desktop, all crammed into a 13’ x 13’ home office; the speakers are nearfield. I’ve learned to go with all sealed/acoustic suspension speakers & subs here. I can only fit 1 sub: currently it’s the excellent JL Audio e110, a powerful 10" design. The mains are vintage KEF 103.2s, 2-ways with a strong low end courtesy of the 8" woofers. I have the sub crossed over slightly above where the mains start dropping off. It sounds like one big pair of speakers.

I’d never want to be without a sub...

Hi Folks,

Not much to add that hasn't been stated in adding refined, deep bass.  I lived with good monitors in many rooms, discovering the added benefits of quick, sealed subs later in the journey.  My solution in a small dedicated studio is a pair of monitors atop a pair of subs, digging down into the 20's.  I have Auralex isolation platforms to float the subs and IsoAcoustics monitor stands separating the monitors and subs.  I split the incoming signal with a Focusrite Pro DAC which removes the heavy lifting of bass from my main tube amp to the monitors, letting the active sealed subs do their thing from 80Hz down.  This results in a large, deep, full stage, the disappearing act of great monitors and the heft of full range without limitation to genre nor volume levels.  I have nearby friends with astounding, full systems in large rooms.  I'm never sad to come home.  More Peace, and Happy Holidays.  Pin

I just upgraded from the REL T-Zero mkIII to the new T-9X. Very excited to hear what it brings to my system. 

At Deer Creek Audio, we believe adding a subwoofer to your system is one of the most powerful ways to increase clarity, imaging, dynamics and all the attributes audiophiles associate with a high fidelity full range system.

A primary reason is that excessive energy and driver excursion is eliminated in the range speakers, resulting in better utilization of amplifier power and reduced Doppler distortion.

Proper subwoofer integration and calibration are the keys to success.  Following are some highlights.

Crossover Setting

The crossover between the main speakers and subwoofer(s) is a skill that goes beyond applying the symmetrical textbook high and low pass filter. We have found the asymmetrical filter slopes and shapes can produce significantly enhanced results.  See image below for an example of a crossover we use with JBL 4349s and a high power 12-inch subwoofer.

 

 

Delay Setting

Next, delay needs to be adjusted so that the gross arrival time between the subs and the mains is aligned to achieve the tightest non-interfering response.

Time Domain Correction

The Dirac room correction process attempts to improve the impulse response of the combined main speaker and subwoofer system.  When properly performed, a Dirac project results in the seamless integration between the subwoofer and the main speakers, allowing the system to achieve the bottom octave of music without the undesirable effects of an untuned subwoofer installation.  Here's a graphic example of impulse response optimization.

 

It's an amazing high fidelity musical experience when you seamlessly add the last octave. Feel free to contact us at Deer Creek Audio if you'd like to discuss these concepts further.

 

Subs open up the sound; enhancing the quality of deep bass is a bonus. Especially true with the REL attached to amp's speaker taps which is like bi-amping.

My main speakers don't benefit as much from subs as they are good to 20 Hz on their own. Obviously the limitation there is that you are locked into the manufacturers set up as the low bass isn't independently adjustable as it is with separate subs.

I also operate an audio system that incorporates my main speakers plus a pair of powered subs that are 3 dB down at 16 Hz and so of course had the opportunity to try my stereo set up along with the subs. Other than slightly boosting really low bass - which matters if you are into organ music - there wasn't much advantage to adding the subs over without subs.

Another system  I have is one I'd really like to integrate a sub into - ML CLS, but electrostatics are a bitch to blend with subs especially with a smaller room.

Can't recall if anyone combined Quad ESLs really successfully with subs....

Very true. Also, stereo subs matter, 2 are much better than 1 positioned L and R.

oldhvymec Once you learn how to integrate a sub properly you will appreciate the qualities REL brings to their speaker line.  Plenty of good information in this thread (and some bad).

Love my T9i, it has added so much realism to my 20x22x9’ dedicated listen room. Looking forward to adding another for a stereo pair.

Looking for some advice. I have a NAD M33 with KEF LS50 Metas and a single B&W ASW 1000 sub. The bass is muddy. Would like to improve the sound. I demoed the KEF KC62 but it would fall asleep and not wake up and I’ve read there are problems with it and the NAD. Any suggestions for what I might do to add a pair of subs for <$2k? Also would like to hook them up wirelessly. Thx. 

After around thirty years of various systems moved to a larger room and dual REL Gibraltar G2 (modified internal wiring). 3/4 of what I enjoy is live recordings, some recordings are a sonic astounding engineering feat for the live experience....going to two large and musical subs is like finding the "truth" in a live recording...and its been there a long time, I was missing it, never heard it! I call the current system my "Time Machine" because it will take you back in time to the culture and sound of what was going on. Cranking up live Grateful Dead to "11" with duel subs is like finding the "Ark of the Covenant"...I couldn't be happier (at the moment).

@atmasphere 

I wish more people would realize ^ especially those {names withheld}

that comment on room treatments being of little or secondary attention.

Its all about the order you approach corrective measures the

 room dictates what you hear and there's no getting around that.

Start with the room and treatments then with subs and equalization.

 

 

I'm told the Room Perfect in the Lyngdorf makes setting up 4 subs much easier, but I've heard that crap before... time will tell.

I'm sure it would. You can't fix a standing wave cancellation using room correction. The correction will tell the amp to make more power at the cancellation frequency- and the result is that you could put 1000 Watts into that cancellation and still have a bass problem. With a distributed bass array the standing wave is broken up- allowing the room correction to work properly.

I might be on here asking for some help shortly. I currently have one sub, A Foundation from Legacy as I have an entire Legacy system. Speakers, Surrounds, Backs, Sub, and Amps ..I am about to take delivery of 3 more, and setting up a 4 sub system might be a little over my head. I'm thinking about hiring someone to come help me, if I can find them.  My processor is a Lyngdorf MP-40. I'm told the Room Perfect in the Lyngdorf makes setting up 4 subs much easier, but I've heard that crap before... time will tell.

A few months ago I added an SVS Micro 3000 sub to my system (PL EVO 400, Modwright/OPPO 205, anti-cables, reworked '78 KHorns) as a result of comments on this forum.  My small house requires a living room installation and the right KHorn has only inches of wall before encountering a large door opening between living and dining rooms. The sub fits perfectly under the four-legged antique buffet I modified to install my electronics, and it's located on the same wall the other side of the doorway.

It made a sonically amazing improvement to my listening experience!

The extra 10Hz lower frequency range has smoothed and reinforced the soundstage in ways that I wasn't prepared to believe.....and make no mistake, I am now a confirmed believer! 

The sub has even made up for the bass loss that was noticeable (to me) on the right side of the room.

 

I use the high-level inputs on my subs.

Any thoughts about how important the quality of the speaker cable is going from the back of the amps to the high-level inputs on the subs?

Mine is 18 gauge OFC but was cheap on Amazon.

 

 

Or it the Swarm only effective scattered around the room?

@mglik If your mains make bass, I'd place the Swarms to the side or rear of the room. They are only a foot square and if the driver is facing the wall (and the sub is only 2 inches or so from the wall) then they can be innocuous in the room. The trick is that they are asymmetrically placed so as to have differing distances from the center of the room- in this way they will be more effective breaking up the usual standing waves that occur.

 

Old,

 

I like SVS they are at least a bit more up to date with speaker design.. REL is WAY behind.. I laugh at the stuff on their web site. That design would benefit from an East LA bass head to teach them how NOT to piss off the neighbors and make GREAT bass.

REL rattles the whole house.. NO ONE around me uses that type of sub.. Pisses off the neighbors, especially in garage systems close to neighbors bedrooms.. .. LOL Waves in the neighbors  swiming POOL. Frogs vacating all the little ponds, JackHammer SUBS.. I Quit using that design in the 90s..

IB servo columns or OB servo stacks are a 10 in my book. REL 3-4, SVS 5-6, JL 6-7, IB servo dual or quad columns 9-10, GRs OB servo stacks 8-10 depends. Need two double 12" cabinets to really reap the rewards.”

 

I have 2  Rel 812 subs dialed in. Your take on Rel is 🗣💩

Musaddict- I will do that Cassidy experiment on my system-thank you.

Magilic- Just buy 2 REL 5Tx subs. On sale was $1000 all in for 2.

Call it your mini swarm!

Natural- Those Fritx speakers are but kickers! Heard them last week

finally. Carrerras or Carbons?

 

 

 

Yes subs always subs. Bass needs tuned to the room. Subs make it easier not harder. Adjustability will get you off the marry-go-round. 

I run two SVS SB-2000 subs with my Cornwall III's. Got them dialed in pretty good. You can't even tell they're there if that makes sense. 

mglik, The key to getting the most from a DBA is to have the subs in different room locations. Four real close to the mains is effectively two locations. If you are stuck with something like that at least try and space them apart, like maybe two an inch or so from the wall, the other two half way between there and the mains. Also remember different locations applies vertically as well. You could get something like Tekton 4-10 and two of those with the woofers stacked the way they are is probably pretty close to 4 smaller subs spaced out better.

To my ears the most difficult aspect of bass reproduction is keeping up the same efficiency for the bass as for the midrange. When efficiency is kept high, then bass is effortless and flows with the rest of the music.

 

I am thinking of getting the Audiokinesis Swarm.

But I can only place them behind my main speakers facing the back wall.

Maybe 2 is enough. I have a friend that does the Swarm with only 2.

I could do all 4 but they would have to be lined up behind the speakers.

Maybe 2 on each side.

Or it the Swarm only effective scattered around the room?

Human hearing is designed to gather far more information from the environment than we are at present able to measure. It is no problem at all to know whether you are in a closet, car, living room or concert hall even with your eyes closed by hearing alone. 

Consequently, the more closely we recreate the sonic signature of the recording venue the more realistically it feels like we are there.   

This is the first thing that hits you with a DBA. I mean, unless you crank it up to where you notice the extra bass. That is too much. With levels properly set you will never know there are any subs at all. People have to be reminded about mine even though they are all around the room obvious as hell. They just don't seem to be doing anything.

But the effect is noticed even on recordings that seem to have no low bass. The speakers and room disappears, the sound stage expands, and there is a sense of envelopment. 

I went through this first when adding multiple subs. Then again to a lesser extent when putting the subs on springs. Then again to a much greater extent when putting the subs on Pods. Each time the bass did improve a bit but this was only noticeable with music with obvious bass. The improvement however goes far beyond this, extending well up into the midrange and also with the really wonderful feeling of envelopment, of being in the sound stage instead of merely looking at it.

I've had two subs for about twenty years.  Relieving the main speaker othe main speakers of the bottom octaves has several bebefits.  Less excursion of the woofer, lowering distortion.  It also takes load off main speaker amp.  And of course better bass.  On a side note, I recently put springs under the subs.  This added detail, more body to the bass.  I also have much less booming bass in other areas of the house.  

Finally Learned: Subs serve much larger role than adding more low bass

My GF commented on how the addition of the subs really helped out the tonal balance in the high end- how the system became more relaxed.

-More enjoayble sound stage

This is something that does not get mentioned often enough. Although, it is probably more related to classical music recorded in a concert hall, more than other types of music, at other venues, or a studio.

There is a lot of ambient information carried in low frequencies, that add imporatant spacial cues. A bigger, deeper, better defined sounstage is the result.

SURPRISE,  SURPRISE !!  If anyone takes the time to read the product information offered by REL on line, they will understand that REL'S approach to sub design goes way beyond just adding lower octave bass.

@xcool  Seems to me that, because sub(s) complete the holistic frame of the original recording space, that which is not technically affected by frequency augmentation (say, 300 HZ signals when sub's top end is 120Hz) is instead placed in its proper sonic context. Often the most valuable qualities are the seemingly invisible ones we take for granted, such as foundation plantings in a landscape. Nobody pays attention to rows of holly, box, or yew -- all eyes are on the irises, the roses, the cherry blossoms. Yet remove the foundation plantings, and sudenly all the showy stuff looks naked, like a bunch of potted plants set out in a yard, no longer a landscape. So the landscape/soundscape analogy would be my best explanation.