Fedex and Ups Damage thread

Jim, I agree with you 100% I am doing the same because they can’t be trusted and believe me, don’t waste your time on insurance. It is a total scam to make money. Take that extra cash and pay for Global or freight shipping on a pallet.

coltrane1

Sometimes it just depends on your area. My packages from FedEx to me has had that happen a couple of times but it has been in the last 2 years. UPS on the other hand is worst. I’ve heard stories of them kicking packages around like a soccer ball. FedEx sometimes hire subs to deliver. But at the end of the day what your eyes and camera see’s doesn’t deceive you. Trust what you see, not what you hear. As far as timeline goes, I’ve been doing this since the late 80’s and I’m sure McIntosh as well as other companies have been doing it longer. I like that McIntosh was smart enough to put instructions on how to repackage and ship their items. Genius! 

@coltrane1 Even with very good packing, trusting the shipment of high dollar Jazz Archtop guitars to Fedx or UPS and never having an issue, I would say not only were you lucky but maybe charmed.

Except for the speakers mentioned, which were totally destroyed, I've had relatively good luck both sending and receiving electronics. When I ship I always double box with component in its original box, with foam packing between inner and outer boxes and insist the seller shipping to me does the same. I have, on a few occasions, received fragile marked packages that had holes pocked through or corners crushed on the outer box, while the inner box and component managed to survive.

I will no longer ship or receive any fragile electronic component (no matter how well packed) weighing more than 50 pounds through FedEx or UPS and will never ship speakers with them.

For larger heaver electronics and speakers I'll stick with Global Air or ground freight  and have items boxed and crated......Jim

I’ve never had a damaged item with FedEx or Ups. And check this out. I’ve shipped some 95 different delicate Jazz archtop’s. Before that I bought and resold high in audio gear of all types.  I’ve 450 feedback from just the items I’ve sold here. 
 

So the question is, how I’ve been so lucky while others have not?

Small, double boxes well packaged items ie. CDPs, CD transports, etc I’ve had good luck with.

Several years ago I bought, from a seller with a record of good feedback, a pair of B&W 802, Matrix II Speakers, to be shipped half way across the country. I bought insurance for $2K, my cost of speakers, plus I had the extra expenses of professional packaging (through UPS) and shipping. When I received the speakers both boxes, as well as the speakers miid range and tweeter sections were crushed, as if dropped upside down 6’ from the back of a truck and completely destroyed. At first UPS refused to pay anything and after several days of haggling said they would settle with seller for $1K, half of the insured amount. My lawyer informed them that once I paid for the speakers, insurance and shipping, they became my property and they would deal with either me or we would file a suit for their willful mis-handling and destruction of my property. I received a check within 10 days for the full amount of insurance - $2K.......Jim

@ozzy62 - Incorrect in your case, perhaps, but I've gotten 'Delivery Date Unknown'  many times since deliveries were slowed down and inconsistent with most carriers for the past couple of years. Nothing was ever lost, just delayed for a day or so. 

I used to have a coin company.  Shipping coins requires a very high percentage of success or you lose your a$$.  I never had a domestic shipment lost.  I never bought insurance.  With a small package, a high insurance value can just say "steal me".  

With coins and with stereo equipment, your best insurance is tape and padding.  Package correctly, ensure the outer container is impervious (with various types of tape), and use a barcoded label covered in clear tape and it will be very unusual for a package not to arrive undamaged.

Buying insurance does not change how a package is handled.  If you think buying insurance relieves you from packaging correctly, then you are just choosing to sell your component to the insurance company after a long red-tape battle to collect.  

Jerry

When I mean by freight, I mean put it in a pallet even if it is 40lbs and it is an electronic item, and ship it with a real freight trucking company. They do a much better job than UPS & FedEx. After a while I think they will get the point. 

Hello,

I have been shipping with FedEx and UPS for almost 20 years with high end car and home audio. I always use factory packing because these manufacturer companies got it right and have had many countless experiences compared to us as consumers. If the factory box doesn’t look up to par, then I order a new one. Let me tell you. In the past couple of years, FedEx and UPS has gotten sloppy. Don’t put this on customers, put it on the company’s that handle your shipping. I am currently involved with a claim that has lasted almost 4 Months and have spoken or emailed with several people. The come up with various excuses and have shady excuses even when you follow everything to a T. I shipped to a friend a McIntosh McIntosh MHT100 in mint condition that was even cleaned and gone over by George Meyers (an authorized McIntosh service center). It was packed in a authorized McIntosh box made for the unit where it is even screwed down to the bottom of the board for security and protection. Just like it is shown on the diagram of their inner floating box. Due to glass panels, McIntosh does an excellent job of describing how to ship and pack their items. Those who own McIntosh knows this to be true. Those who don’t, well, you don’t! As FedEx parks in front of my friends house to deliver the packages, (understand McIntosh boxes are quite large and really sometimes require 2 people to handle it due to its size. McIntosh emphasize this) my friend runs outside and said do you need any help. The driver said no, I got it as he drops the unit on its side. My friend opened the unit after the driver drove off and finds the glass shattered. Thank goodness George Meyers was able to sell me their last MHT100 glass as they are extremely on back order for at least 6-12 months. In this case, don’t blame the person who packed the item, blame the person and the company who mishandled the item. The unit was even packed in 3 boxes with arrows from FedEx that tells you how the item faces up and stickers all over that said fragile. All FedEx products. No excuses. In my case, don’t tell me or McIntosh about packing, I think they do a great job considering what they are packing. McIntosh owners know this. My final thoughts and I hope upper management of FedEx and UPS hears this! Since took money from me (to me this is considered steeling) if I was the consumer, I would not waist my money purchasing their insurance. To me it is a scam for them to make money. Both of these companies have very poor customer service and most likely will not honor your claim especially if it is a high dollar item. Take that same funding they charge you and freight ship it. You will be happy you did it. Hopefully this will help them change their views and provide training for their employees. I doubt it unless there profit drops.

@larsman 

Incorrect. I spoke with a UPS rep on the phone. He couldn’t tell me where the package was. He instructed me to open a claim and they would put a trace on it. That sounds like “lost” to me.

Sorry UPS!

It's a JOKE trying to get a refund by them destroying an item! Proof of value and average 6 months! USPS just changed their policy and will not insure anything over 1,000! I sold a 4000 watch and they would not  insure it for more than a 1000! I don't ship gear anymore it's 50-50 if the don't F it up! FedEx/Usps/Usps they are all the same!

My 3cents!

If it is heavy I put it on a pallet. Worst luck by far with UPS. Much better luck with FedEx. The claims process with UPS is a joke and very confrontational. I have had great luck shipping small light items through the USPS.

You got very bad luck I never had a problem.

'Delivery date unknown' does NOT mean they're thinking it's lost. It means that there was a delay (been happening a lot the past couple of years, if you hadn't noticed) they can't tell you exactly what date you'll receive it. 

I have probably shipped and received 20+ components over the past 2 years while I was finding my current configuration and can happily say there were no damages to report via FedEx.  Delays from time to time, but all was packed properly and arrived safely.

What a timely thread. I had a preamp shipped out of CA via UPS on Monday, scheduled delivery today. This morning the status was changed to "delivery date unknown". Now they are thinking it's lost.

The only way they pay insurance claims is if you use their packing service to ship. I had a preamp shipped FEDEX signature on delivery required. FedEx listed drop-off times 5 x before it actually arrived and it had slight damage. The seller had a FEDEX pack and they did a D- grade job but FEDEX paid him right away he made me do a chargeback on paypal to get my $ back. FedEx mentioned they wanted to inspect the damage but never showed up. This was 2 years ago and I have a nice free preamp after lol.

I have shipped over 5000 items using UPS, FedX, and USPS. Lots of heavy items. According to UPS if it gets damaged it was not packed correctly. The damage has to be noticed, when the package arrives and noted to the driver, or in most cases you are out of luck. The insurance covers you if the item is lost and it does happen. If you do not insure the package and it gets damaged they will only pay $100 max. The driver do not know a package has insurance. I purchased an Audio Research pre amp which was insured for $10,000. It was delivered to the wrong address. I got a call from the person, that shipped the package. He got a call about the package from the person, that received the package. I called UPS, after 3 people and 30 minutes on the phone I told them the package was insured for $10,000 and they sent a truck to pick up the package within an hour. If the package had not been insured no telling the outcome. I have found it good to hand write the address on the box with a phone number.

Using the hard Styrofoam is not a good packing material. It does not allow for shock. Most good audio equipment is packaged in soft foam. I hate peanuts but putting 3 inches of peanuts around the factory box is what UPS says is the correct way to ship glass, value pottery, and sensitive electronics. I use the 3 inch foam from the fabric store around the factory box. Yes, the added cost and the added size to the box cost more to ship but much cheaper than the equipment getting damaged. 

Never let the UPS Store box your stuff. If they do, watch and make sure you are happy with the packing. If they package the item it is covered no matter what.

When I owned audio stores, we could not send back any McIntosh equipment to the factory, without the factory box. We also double boxed it then.

Keep in mind that all business have been short handed and hiring new people. So, if you were worried before, it is worst now.

I had my Apogee Duetta II Signature ribbon speakers damaged by UPS a few years ago. The original cartons are encased in a super solid wood slat enclosure. They managed to puncture the bottom of one of cartons with a forklift, tear off several slats, and drop them. Thank god the puncture was below where the speaker sits. The left channel has a small sliver of damaged mdf on the top that I was able to wedge back in. I went back and forth all the time with their deplorable claims department for several months. They strung me along and then offered $250. You can imagine my response. I’ll always use a freight company from now on and make certain they are both on the same pallet. The left channel as a result has a bass buzz at a very specific low frequency range (the acoustic foam was going to inevitably fail anyway, but that doesn’t give them a pass). I’m getting them fully restored/upgrades anyway in May by Music Technology in VA. That experience still makes me angry when I think about it. UPS is absolutely horrible for large, fragile items. Live and learn!

FedEx insurance is a joke. Packed a pair of Amphions no different than 20 other speakers I've sold on eBay or that other mart. Speakers delivered to buyer in SC with cabinet damage and woofer screen pushed in according to buyer. Filed claim, sent required photos, portal down so please fax. I faxed and emailed, FedEx denied claim. Paid buyer way more than I should have,  FedEx insurance is worthless and a waste of money. Good point above  about having buyer arrange shipping from now on.

 I used FedEx to ship a pair of David Berning Quadrature Z amps for repairs to Indiana from San Francisco.  One was blowing fuses.  Packed in manufacturer's box with specially selected protective density foams.  Boxes and foams were in perfect condition.  Used Gorilla Heavy Duty to reinforce all corners and covered every seam for extra protection.  Insured for 10K which cost a fortune.  Two boxes arrived in Indiana, 1 original, other was odd ball, water soaked stains with some of original form and other padding with a damaged amp.  FedEx driver did not report that it fell out of the back of their truck during a storm.  Receiver questioned box differences but did not verify strange box or damage with me.  I filed a claim once everything was returned and FedEx denied everything.  It took over a year, needed an attorney, had industry experts verify value of amps and cost to manufacture replacement parts, plus I took lots of pictures of equipment and boxes before and after to support claim.  FedEx eventually paid after attorney got aggressive.  I purchased a Wolf Audio streamer, 10K, UPS delivered it to back entrance (which we do not use) without notification of delivery, setting it on top of water sprinkler for ~ 36 hours.  External box was trashed but secondary inner box was intact.  USPS is no better.  We work from home and our "office" window over looks sidewalk approach to secure front door porch.  Their deliveries in our residential neighborhood often get left at wrong address and on wrong streets.  We seldom find out were they are left and no one redelivers their mistakes.  Basically you can not trust any of the services.  Mostly things turn out OK.  May luck be with you!    

I purchased a demo set of Paradigm 95F towers from a dealer way up North. They came damaged with a nick her, a nick there and a scratch here or there. Nothing too bad. The dummy dealer used the old boxes but they had been poorly packed. Needless to say i contacted him and he started a claim with UPS. It took about 7-8 weeks total. I had put them back into the boxes and they were just sitting in my living room waiting to be picked up so I could get a refund. The UPS guy finally showed up and said, "i am just supposed to pick up one speaker." Well, there was no way i was going to release just 1 speaker while the other one just sit there. Turns out, the adjuster was only willing to pay for one speaker despite both being damaged. She was later fired. Point to all of this is, since he was paid for one speaker ($1,500 ) and i had already paid him $3,000 we settled on me paying $1,500 instead of $3,000 total for both speakers due to them being damaged. So, I was refunded $1,500 from the $3,000 paid. In short, I still have a fine sounding pair of Paradigm 95F speakers.... Problem solved, eh..

Im not shipping anything anymore every again, never ever.  I had them jack up an Anthem I225, a Kinki Studio Ex-M1, and I had them pick up a pair of $3500 speakers to return to sender that went mia on the tracking system, but thank god they actually made it back to the sender.

Fed Ex and UPS are a joke.  The boxes can be double boxed with styrofoam, marked as fragile (highly explosive might yield better results).  Fed ex told me that the boxes need to withstand 150 or 180 pounds… can’t remember.  
 

To be safe, basically box up your $3,000 amp then jump up and down on the box. If your amp survived, your safe to ship it… probably.

Oh and the Fed Ex insurance claim is a joke.  I basically just gave up trying to file a claim.

I shipped three items with shipping labels supplied by PS Audio for trade in. I believe that they use the Music Room to handle the trade ins. Fed EX changed the shipping address and I did not catch it. It took 3 months to get this sorted out. I am still not sure the items ever arrived.

I don't think fedex is any better or worse than UPS. And vice versa. I think it's a good idea to take a lot of photos during the packing process. And although it may be more costly, when shipping speakers insure each box for the worth of both speakers. If one is lost or damaged, what is the remaining speaker going to be worth to anyone?

@richmon +1

I’ve had major damage and loss with Fed Ex and UPS. Even in a pelican case. I determined that you should not leave a handle on a shipping case because they use it to swing the case round and round like a hammer throw and see how far they can sling it. I’ve not had much problem since cutting the handles off. 

Methinks whenever a UPS or FedEx disgruntled employee see's a 'fragile' sticker(s) they intentionally manhandle it.

Had a Conrad Johnson MF2250 sent into the factory for upgrade, on the return leg to me, it was dented big time, looked like the fork lift driver rammed the prongs into the box, no amount of over packing can protect from that.

Local pickup only for me going forward for fragile freight. 

A  number of years ago I was home anxiously awaiting the arrival of an ARC amplifier. I was looking out the front window when the UPS truck pulled up. As I watched, the driver emerge from his truck he dropped the amplifier which landed on edge at the bottom step before coming to rest in the street. I awaited him at the front door. He didn't say a word. I picked up the box and could hear the broken class inside. I asked him if he was going to tell me about his dropping the box. All he asked was if I was refusing delivery. I did not want the amp sent back broken to the seller. So, I took delivery and immediately contacted both the seller and UPS.To their credit UPS took care of the situation. All it took was time and a bunch of repeat phone calls. I hope the driver was fired. I will not ever send anything of value through UPS. 

The key is to pick up and don't trust these people.  They won't pay a claim, they simply suck.  Also, insurance is no good unless they completely lose it.  Was just in Vegas, found a great used place that will not ship anything (they have had too many issues, imagine that).  Found a beautiful, early Threshold amp and shipped to myself via UPS.  Had a fragile stamp on 6 sides.  It looked like it had been punted, dropped, run over, dragged behind a truck and just plan fully violated.  Luckily, the amp was built like a tank and I had a 4" layer of bubble wrap around it, with paper padding additional.  Luckily, it sounds wonderful. 

A pair of PBN Montana SP2 speakers packaged by the UPS store and shipped to FL from VA. Both speakers arrived completely destroyed. Claim payed.

A VTL ST-150 shipped to GA from VA. Fedex lost the label off the box. Someone thought it was a good idea to send it back to VTL in CA after seeing a reference to that address on the box.  I only found this out because I did the detective work to figure out where it was. It took 3 weeks to get it to the buyer and Bea Lam was a complete pain in the ass to deal with.

When I bought my JBL L300 from the east coast for delivery to California a freight company was used. No problem. Sender used Forward Air. I had to pay extra for them to deliver from LAX to the High Desert. They arrived OK. I would not trust FedEx or UPS.

I bought a Carver amp and another Carver piece on eBay. Shipped in same box. A small amount of crumpled newspaper was used as packing. The amp had a bent mounting flange and the other piece was a write off. Items were packed by a UPS store. UPS denied claim.

I think FedEx insurance may cover damage caused in transit based on this experience:  I set up my FedEx system to automatically receive an item without signature.  They chose not to honor my insurance claim because the default is that I accepted the package as if I had signed for it and they cannot be responsible for what happens after that.  I can’t argue with that logic, but maybe the increased use of photos showing proof of delivery will be helpful.

I stopped using UPS insurance when I learned that the insurance only covers LOSS or THEFT, NOT DAMAGE caused by UPS. Not sure if FedEx is the same.

Insurance WILL NOT insure anything!

Rule #1- overpack it with the right packing material. If you're not sure, ask the manufacturer. DO NOT trust the guy at the UPS store. They don't know electronics.

Rule #2- NEVER EVER pay or arrange shipping for an item you're buying. This makes YOU the responsible party if damage occurs.  

Rule #3- NEVER ever sign for a damaged package if it's through a freight company! Even if you write "damaged" on the BOL, you're still responsible for returning the item ON YOUR DIME IF returns are accepted. If you think it's insured, you may be right. Freight companies pay 19 cents per pound for freight claims! Third party insurance sounds like a nightmare to me. 

Rule #4- hold your breath until you receive, or the buyer receives the item and leaves you positive feedback. Control is all with the buyer unless they surrender their rights by being ignorant or too lazy to learn the rules.

Rule #5-  If an item is that important to you, drive there if possible!

I learned these things through experience. Hopefully you'll avoid some of the headaches I've endured. Joe

@tooblue 

Shipped a VMPS sub, integrated amps on down.

Just saying.

I was a truck driver and know how to pack for the worst.  Assume drop kick.

The only claim against UPS was for a "delivery" I never received. (Porch Pirate in the 80's?) 3 months is correctomundo.

BREAKING NEWS.............FEDEX and UPS  to merge into one company.......it will be named  FED UP .

In Nov. 2020 I purchased a McIntosh MC 2155 (about 70 lbs.) from an individual near Seattle, WA. When I received the box in Michigan, the front panel was shattered. I took lots of photos before and during the un-packing, and then submitted a claim through the carrier, UPS, for the Washington store. It took over three months to be reimbursed for the parts (I did the repair). They required additional photos of the box, and its rating (it had been serviced previously by Audio Classics, and so had been well packaged), as well as me filing a complaint with the BBB against the UPS store. The box had evidently been dropped (or fell) on a one of the corners. It was not a pleasant experience, but thankfully the shipper had insured it!

i shipped a Sony broadcast monitor to NYC, arrived in pieces. UPS claimed that it was not packed properly. i used the original factory packing and inserts. refused the claim.  i have heard other horror stories about them

Insuring the package for a hefty sum will deter the company from  mishandling it. Never had an audio component sent or received damaged.

Yes @doyle they're nearly there.

Crate in wood.

All manufacturers' packaging of heavy hardware and nicely finished speakers should be wooden crates.

The packaging for my 220lb Martin-Logan CLX Anniverseries was cardboard.  Disintegrated on the second transit.  I have just sent them in for servicing and they had to be manhandled naked up narrow stairs by thee men.  (the speakers naked, not the men).  Risk is so nerve-wracking, at age 72 I had to be hands on with the other two.  Shame on you Martin-Logan.

The packaging on my 200+lb Krell KRS200s from the late 1980s was two huge heavy wooden crates with pallet lifting sleepers under.  Bombproof.  Still have them.  Excellent Krell

Lessons to be learned for some manufacturers.

Knock on wood but none here. I know I’ve been fortunate. My former boss passed on his mantra to keep all original packing. It may take up plenty of space in the basement, but it’s worth it. 
When my Mac 240 was shipped back to me from audio classics, I was simply blown away by the very stout box and packaging it arrived in. Even bolted down to a subfloor of plywood. 
Our local ups and fedex men and women are top notch.

Perfect timing. Sent a pair of Spendor S100s to Bakersfield California. Extremely well packaged. Both speakers were double boxed, foam on all corners of both boxes, additional foam spacing on all sides, etc. One speaker arrived with a corner and top edge damaged. Two of the three speakers in the cabinet no longer work. 

Currently working with customer to obtain quotes for repair s I can file a claim with FedEx. If you look at the pictures it is obvious someone dropped it from a height. 

I’ve only had one occurrence where I’d purchased Totem Arro’s from a well reviewed seller, only to have a top corner - damaged veneer and mdf - pushed in after opening the packaging. It was a combination of the seller not applying sufficient filler and support in the corners, and UPS throwing the double box around like it was a medicine ball (puncture holes and push-ins everywhere). They still played just fine, very solidly constructed speakers. Seller ended up giving me a huge discount.

I have less experience than some others here but have only once had an item damaged in shipment and once had a box damaged but the item was fine.  Most items were packed extremely well, some triple-boxed.  But I have seen both FedEx and UPS drivers literally throw heavy, fragile packages down on my doorstep, so I think I have been lucky.

Never had a damaged UPS item, a couple of FedEx ones I was on the receiving end of.

If you want a pair of speakers or a component to arrive safely and in one piece, I recommend using a freight company. They seem to get it right every time, and when an item is palletized, it just isn't possible to throw it around and abuse it.

My latest purchase was a new RPM5 TT that arrived from the dealer with a tonearm damaged beyond repair, according to Pro-Ject. Dealer says they are sending new tonearm but can’t give a timeline or get the name of the manufacturer right. In every correspondence with me, they refer to Rega as the manufacturer of the TT and that they are relating messages from Rega about my Rega RPM5 Carbon. 

Sounds like a case of bad karma.