We do tests all the time, when purchasing new items. So badgerdums says I’m not qualified to listen for upgrade improvements in my system? Either on my own, or with a group of friends? But it’s my system. I’m the only one qualified to say whether I keep said items, or return them. He must be part of the ASR crowd.
This year I listened to, approved of and therefore kept:
A Puritan PSM156, Sound Anchors speaker stands, Teddy Pardo linear power supply, Puritan Ultimate power cable, Stack Audio Auva 70, Tubulus Argentus i2S cable, Plixir Elite linear power supply, Plixir Statement DC cables.
any test like that, so it is garbage. It would like saying I did randomized control trial of the weight loss drug, sure, I did it, but it doesn’t mean anything because I am not qualified to conduct such a trial.
Seems like the author of this post is utterly incapable of listening and being able to pick out obvious and not subtle differences in their audio system.
Ignoring the sound better magic or not, I was checking up on the specs that have emerged since I retired ( we used fiber almost exclusively anyway)
7, 7a and 8 standards are proposed but will use proprietary connectors. Not RJ45s
Prices on cables have come way down. ( beware of source)
Plain old CAT-5, UTP is of course sufficient for anything in audio unless you need magic .
5e is a little better with bonded pairs. 6 and 6a have a center core for more consistent impedance. 6a is also a little smaller. CAT 5 to 6a may or may not have an overall shield. 6 and 6a may have individual pairs shielded. CAT 6 connectors fit RJ-45 but are staggered pins in the crimp. You are still looking at 10 ee-13 error rates or less with layer 2 fixing any that may happen. TCP/IP is absolutely reliable bit for bit. As with anything, I would not trust Amazon/E-Bay etc that the cables actually meet spec. Unfortunately BJC cables are not shielded but they are tested to spec. So I have no guaranteed source for shielded cable.
So for the paranoid, or want it because it is available, or bragging rights, whatever, 6a shielded is reasonably priced now. I noticed most of the Netgear switches all have shielded ports now. If you believe you need fantastic speeds for your streamer, you can get managed switches so the Internet to your streamer has priority. You can even get a D-link or Netgear switch with a sticker on it for 20 times the price that says "audio quality" It may have a better power supply. If you buy a data-center class switch from Cisco, it may be cleaner.
I noticed the older unmanaged 5 port usually used 5V, but most 8 port and manages switches use 12V. A couple turns around a big fat ferrite will knock any RF off those cables feeding the switches.
I may upgrade as I have a WI-FI repeater and going PoE reduces the wiring mess.
We can measure anything in a data cable. We can't tell you which measurements may cause an audible difference. We can't tell you how well your device ports were executed. We can't tell you how good your Internet MODEM and router are but they can be measured. This is the same in analog cables. We can measure, but that does not tell us what we need to target. Too many unknowns on both ends. Without measurement I can absolutely tell you, no cable can add any detail that was not in the original source. That is magic.
Reading this entire thread (almost) I've come to the conclusion that I know less than anyone in the conversation and about that there is no doubt.All I want is to connect my HiFi Rose 150 to my audio system and since it also provides You Tube to the TV as well.
Have a tech coming over, he asks me to pick up the cables. Have the modem, from another thread supposedly picked the right modem. Need the cables from modem to the Rose, Rose to Preamp, Rose to tv.
Can't tell you what is needed to bring in Tidal or Quboze. Not afraid to get upgraded cables Don't want wifi, all hardwired. Anyone with a knowledge of this, your help would be most appreciated.
The dealer I purchased from has other things to do that are apparently more important. The unit will be on the way to vintage before I can get it hooked up.
I have been researching streamers since I mostly use headphones for my music listening now since the wife of 37 years has issues when I listen to my 2-channel system due to loud listening levels. So, as they say, happy wife happy life.
My current headphone rig:
Headphones: Denon AH-D9200’s (closed back) and Senn HD 650 (open back). Contemplating buying the ZMF Caldera
DAC: Schiit Bifrost 2/64
Amp: Schiit Folkvangr with Mullard E88CC tubes.
I have been using my custom PC I built since I am still a gamer at the age of 57. The cost of the PC was over 5k and the most expensive part was the GPU (ASUS RTX 4090). The PSU is a Corsair AX1600i (80 PLUS Titanium) at $610 (USD). I believe the PSU is the heart of the system. The CPU is a i9-13900KS and I am using 32gb of Corsair DDR5 ram. The motherboard is an ASUS Z790 ROG Maxiumus Hero. Storage used is 2 Samsung 990 Pro 2TB on the motherboard and an 8TB Samsung QVO SSD. I connect my PC via USB to the Schiit Bifrost 2/64 DAC. I do not hear any audible noise when the music is not playing.
I use Tidal and Apple music for streaming. I have used iTunes for many years before Tidal and I like using it. I have connected my iPad Pro via the Apple lightening to USB adapter to my Schiit DAC. I have recently purchased a Mac Mini M2 Pro (16gb, 1tb SSD) as my streamer. Comparing my custom PC to the Mac Mini M2 Pro I give the edge to my PC for sound quality. I bought the Mac Mini as an open box at Microcenter for $1,100 (retail $1,499), yes, I know Apple products cost money. I like the small foot print of the Mac Mini and I remember attending the stereo show in SOCAL (THE SHOW) pre covid and many of the exhibit rooms were using a Mac Mini as their music server.
I also own a Oppo 205 in my main system and after reading one of the posts I may use it as a streamer. There is a lot of talk on the internet about the Eversolo DMP-A6 as a streamer, it is currently on Amazon at $859 and I have contemplated trying it. I have been advised to try the Lumin U2 ($5k) or the HiFi Rose RS250A ($2,695). My thoughts are the streamer is sending a digital signal (not going to use the DAC in the streamer) to my DAC and the DAC should take care of the processing. Decisions, decisions.
@vinylshadowI have Empire streamer/DAC. It is hands down the best sounding streamer/DAC I have owned besting the Lumin X1 using it's fiber input. Unfortunately I may be selling it as a business opportunity has come up.
+jerrybj My 1 1/2 year streaming journey followed a similar path. Each change made an improvement. Started out streaming from my phone/ipad to my Wifi DAC using Tidal hi-res. Then Macbook Pro on wifi using Audirvana with usb to DAC, then used ethernet cable to mesh router instead of wifi, then added optical isolation filter (FMC-optical cable-FMC) from router to Macbook, added Bricasti M5 network streamer controlled by Macbook over the network, then added roon and a sonic transporter i5 as roon core and dropped the Macbook now controlled by an ipad or iphone remotely. Biggest improvements were adding M5 streamer over the network, optical isolation and quality usb cable. Roon with the sonic transporter made it much easier to use with some minimal SQ improvement vs. the Macbook. Ethernet cables made very little if any improvement. Very happy with the end result and a fun journey. Network Streamer did matter for me!
"you don’t need a dedicated streamer (vs a PC) for top notch performance".
I’m going to get technical here, but there are many cases where a PC’s USB or HDMI output is very high in noise due to a ground loop which they are prone to due to the switching power supply not really designed to play nice with others. In those cases there can be audible hum/noise or significant jitter. Multiple sources including Stereophile and Audio Science Review have shown this. I’ve also experienced audible hum when using a PC source and USB.
There are multiple known cases where a laptop source measured significantly better when unplugged from the wall.
So.... personally I would not use a PC or laptop as a source to avoid these issues altogether. I use a Raspberry Pi with a high current iFi wall power adapter.
You can get around this issue a little by using a USB isolator (sucks not all DACs are completely isolated) or an optical S/PDIF output but you still have the issue of the amounts of power supply noise making it into the AC.
So generally, I agree that a PC is never going to be my first choice as a streamer, but you could maybe make it OK?
Somewhere in this thread some wellmeaning ignoramus said "you don’t need a dedicated streamer (vs a PC) for top notch performance".
This is laughably false, and even the least trained ear will immediately recognize the sonic difference between the highest-end PC and a lowish to mid-tier dedicated streamer like Eversolo or Limetree. Go up to Aurender, Lumin, Auralic and the sonic bump is again absolutely, undeniably evident.
Bluesound Node or Pii stuff is all cute. Once one goes next level up, one realizes how overhyped these things are.
And - linear power supply. Get a dedicated LPS from a good brand like MCRU. You'll hear it instantly.
@joes44you have to take another look at your setup.
Start with the source - You need high quality material (Tidal or Qobuz).
A streamer - in your case a one box streamer/dac solution like the Bluesound Node (latest) will be great. You can hard wire it or use its wifi. People tend to underestimate the Node. It’s really much better than most people think.
Using computer as a streamer, I guess it’s fine when we’re talking it’s in a context of a low end set up but even then you’re better off with something like the purpose built unit such as Node.
Worry about cables later. When you graduate to a higher level setup you can start experimenting. Everything matters, and it all matters more the better your system gets.
Make sure you use a high quality ethernet cable as it does make a difference. Also, connect your ethernet cable to an LAN iSilencer and you will be amazed.
Does the quality of the streamer really matter? Here's what I've found: I mostly listen to Qobuz these days. I started with an Auralic Aries ($1599), which sounded great. I eventually upgraded to an Innuos Zen MkIII ($3149) which sounded noticeably greater. If that upgrade made such a difference, I was curious what a further upgrade would sound like. So I recently received the new Innuos Pulsar ($6899), which is akin to a streamlined version of the top-of-the-line Statement. Whoa! Wide, holographic, enveloping, unambiguous soundstage with distinct individual voice and instrumental location and non-fatiguing sound (on good recordings) with remarkably well-controlled and extended bass. No placebo effect there!
WOW... A LOT of information thrown out here. I know that along my digital journey, I started out with a good laptop used as a music server using JRiver as the software to manage the music sent to a good USB DAC. While the sound was really good and bettered my CD player at the time, it still was not a good match for sound quality as my analog set-up. That all began to really change when I went from my laptop-based music server to an Innuos ZENith MKIII. The music finally started sounding (well for lack of better words) "less digital". And, music that I had loaded on the music server sounded better than streamed music through the same music server using QoBuz. Researching further, I decided to try and improve the digital signal transmission first by purchasing the Innuos Phoenix USB Re-Clocker, which made a noticeable improvement in the micro-detail of the music. I was able to finally use digital as my main source of pleasure listening. Thinking further and more up-stream, my research led me to improving the Ethernet signal. I purchased an Uptone-Audio EtherREGEN device and $-for-$, it was the most noticeable improvement in the sound than any other digital device I had added into the digital side of the system. Background got quieter and micro-detail improved. In essence, a more realistic portrayal of the music. In my opinion, noise, poor clocking and jitter are the worst enemies of good digital playback and minimizing them with devices and cabling that can help minimize the effects of those is the path to take for improved digital sound. Of course a really good DAC. CD transport or CD player, or streamer really help in that digital chain, however without really good clean jitter-free signals, those great components won't be able to perform to their utmost. I wish you the best on your digital journey !
A coaxial connection between a streamer and the Oppo is possible. Just make sure you use the coaxial input jack on the rear panel. I suggest using the USB input, however. It supports higher sampling rates and DSD (if you're interested in that format) as well.
Music from YouTube is compressed using a lossy algorithm called Advanced Audio Coding (AAC). This means that some of the information in the original file is thrown away so the file size is minimized. Most likely it won't sound quite as good as listening to the same track from a CD or streaming from Tidal.
If you're looking at a somewhat long run of Ethernet, I also suggest looking at Blue Jeans Ethernet cables (link). Each one is tested to ensure that it meets or exceeds the spec it's rated for and you're given a test report with the cable.
I read every post in this,,, discussion, and when I finally got to the end was about to just close the tab/page, when I read your last post! What a time waster I thought. All this BS when you're listening to music saved from streaming from YOUTUBE!!! You can't be serious maaan?!?!! Through TWO routers no less!!! Then you come out with the rediculous statement that the ONLY complaint you have is about the dynamics, presumably NONE?! What a surprise - NOT!
My take on this - I started streaming with my home built super duper super fast PC, and was gobsmacked at the SQ improvement when I got it out of the music chain completely.
Don't use a switch, don't use ethernet cablles, or LPS's, as you don't need them, at all. Just buy a streamer with a USB input and copy your music files to it - a saving of $$$k and get better SQ without going through that other non essential stuff. No LPS's required either. Out of your streamer (mine is a Cambridge Audio 851N) to either a DAC 1st or straight into your amp or pre-amp. Done. The CA phone interface is superb too.
Since the last time I used Tidal it was 2018. I’ve since moved. The only DSL line is in the living room so I’ll have to connect a 25ft. cat 6 ethernet cable from the tv router to a second router Asus RT-AC3100 in my listening room.
Then a dedicated ethernet connections to the desktop computer and another to the Oppo-205.
Now I’ve just listened to the cd’s I burned back then.
DSL to desktop computer to
Oppo to
Tascam cd-rw900mkII cd burner.
As far as SQ is concerned from the Cd’s the only complaint I have are the dynamics.
The music I download now is from youtube stored on a SSD lacks clarity.
So until I save up for a streamer, This will have to do in the meantime.
I would like to use a coaxial cable between the streamer and the Oppo.
In My minds eye I’m hoping for both an improvement of clarity and dynamics.Akin to a phono amp which amps the volume a bit more than without, especially with a MC cartridge. The streamer will be the phono amp. The Oppo is capable of wide dynamics.which will be the pre amp.
The streamer will be dedicated to my hifi only. Strictly for music.in one room not for the whole house.
I also forgot to mention that the UDP-205 can also function as a USB DAC. You can connect your PC directly to the Oppo using a USB cable. See p.20 in the user manual for details. Don't forget to change your audio output device to the UDP-205 in Windows.
You can absolutely use the UDP-205 as a streamer. I've done this with my UDP-203 in the past. What you need to do is connect the Oppo to your network using either wired Ethernet or Wi-Fi. Go to the setup menu and test the internet connection (it may take a while for the Oppo to obtain an IP address from your router).
Once the test is successful, the Oppo will advertise itself on your network as a UPnP renderer. Cambridge Audio has a good explanation of UPnP (link). Now that the UDP-205 is a renderer, you can stream to it using an app installed on your mobile device. I use BubbleUPnP on my Android phone or mConnect HD on my iPad. You will need to log in to Tidal on the UPnP app and select the Oppo as your rendering device (tap 'Play to' on mConnect or the cast icon in lower right in BubbleUPnP). Then just search for some music and hit play.
If your music is stored on a PC using Windows, you can enable the built-in UPnP sever so that you can use BubbleUPnP or mConnect to browse your music files stored in your Music folder and stream those to the Oppo over your local network (link). If music files are stored on a Mac, you can download an app called Kodi that can turn the Mac into a UPnP server (link).
Yes, @fredrik222, everyone here is as free to post as you. If you don't care for that, contact the moderators and get the rules changed to your satisfaction.
I think I found what you dislike so much in the link shared by @akg_ca. It's in the conclusion, isn't it:
@cleedsbut should they, really? Look at this thread, someone wants to get started with streaming, and it took five posts or so before people started with the “you must have audiophile Ethernet products”.
any test like that, so it is garbage. It would like saying I did randomized control trial of the weight loss drug, sure, I did it, but it doesn’t mean anything because I am not qualified to conduct such a trial.
“garbage article” maybe only to you. Fine … carry on… I could not care less what you pontificate as “garbage”.
We did our own hands- on direct bakeoff of crummy non-shielded Ethernet cables against quality-build and properly shielded Ethernet cables .in my $50,000 system.
Guess what! …. the audio improvements in shielded cables were clear and unambiguous that exactly mirrored the article conclusions .
Incoming, I assume fiber or coax to your service provider MODEM. Please use the provided RG-6 COAX as it will be double shielded and meet FCC emissions requirements. At this level, bits are bits.
Modem to a router with Ethernet cable:
Most use the provider router. Provider Routers are fine for wired, but WIFI performance is often very poor as far as bandwidth and range. Not a problem for most uses but if you have range issues or hard core gamers, you may want to look into higher performance routers. Irrelevant for audio quality as it is still a packet based data delivery service and bits are still just bits at this level. The data rate is trivial. You can cable Ethernet or consider WIFI to the computer or streamer. I prefer to cable anything that does not move, but WIFI can carry HD stereo bandwidth just fine. Still packet based delivery. Bits is bits at this point. TCP will correct any errors. If running UDP, shame on you but the higher levels of the stack may still correct any error.
Again, a shielded Ethernet cable does NOTHING unless the ports on both ends are plated to provide the shield ground. An Ethernet cable does not have a pin for shield. Why? Because it is not necessary. There are some applications in the Medical field where emissions could cause errors in other equipment so shielded cables are required. These locations usually specify isolated power grounds. It is not a good thing for your IV pump to glitch. You can buy consumer level routers, switched, and hubs with plated connectors if you believe you need it.
CAT5+ had the sole advantage of bonding the pairs for more consistent impedance when going to Gig-E. CAT-3 is all you need for audio bandwidth.
If anyone would like a better factual understanding, might I suggest, rather than believing some You-Tuber or subjective reviewer sponsored by snake oil manufactures, ( or me) you review a little more reliable information. Here is a good place to start on WIKI.
If you want to dig deeper, MIT has their entire engineering course selection on-line for free.
A streamer is nothing but a stripped down computer loosing all the services not needed. They attempt to make a computer an appliance as they should be. I use a PC as a music server and for the limited streaming I do as I like the bigger screen for my UI and don't own a tablet. It has about half as many services running as an out-of-the -box PC and many configuration changes. Audio quality was in fact improved by PC and Music server application configuration for how the processing of those bits was done to assemble the USB output. Stream or disk file. Bits are still bits, but different bits. Subjective reviewers suggest a Mac is a better platform but I don't own one so I do not know or if using ASIO or WASAPI has the same advantages as the Apple music stack. A streamer appliance should have these taken care of these questions so you don't need to understand them.
Eventually, those bits get delivered to a DAC. Internal or external. How the DAC input DSP processor handles them and how they are clocked does seem to make quite a bit difference in sound. Some well understood and measurable, some maybe not fully understood. Next D 2 A conversion. That is the easy part. This is followed by the integrator and analog stages. There is gets harder again and can influence the quality. Much understood, some not, and tons more opportunity for snake oil salesmen. ( Did you know you can bias an op-amp into class A?)
Now, to confuse things further, Ethernet CABLE can be used for other transports. I used a CAT-5 run between baluns to send low quality background music from my cable provided audio ( before I canceled cable). I did not have any noise issues, but as it was audio over the cable, it was subjected to degradation though the baluns probably did more harm. Ethernet cable is used for proprietary links in automation and I believe in professional audio production. I do not know anything about that other than the cable is cheap and the connectors are excellent.
@antigrunge2that “white paper” is a joke and has been debunked many times over. In fact, John Swenson has been ridiculed when he was forced to admit he made up a bunch of terms that mean nothing.
I would be the first to admit, I’m definitely not an expert in networking or audio. I got off the merry go round a long time ago. I’m open to new ideas and constantly learning from others on this site as well as others. That’s why I look to experts in their field. In this case, a knowledgeable CEE can look at a device and determine if it follows good design principles and more than likely determine if high quality components were used to manufacture the device. Unfortunately, I don’t have this skillset. I’m like most people on this site, I enjoy good music and this hobby. I also understand that every tech person or CEE may not have a deep understanding of audio systems like many users on this site. However, since I have a technical background, I like to ask questions, seek a better understanding, and explore various options in the audio world. I believe, it’s a best practice to have an open mind, ask thought provoking questions, and always be willing to listen and learn.
Totally disagree with Yage and the measurement/ASR crew. Both from reading, listening to the opinions of others, and my own experience.
My first venture with streaming was with a MacBook Pro to Dac. Upgraded with a M2Tech HiFace Two, and then to a Halide Bridge. I was very happy with it for a couple of years.
When I asked a question how to improve this further, there was the option a Mac Mini, or getting a streamer. Both options researched, but the streamer option provided a significant improvement in sound.
I found an image of the Lumin U2 Mini here (link) and it appears the compute module is hidden by the heatsink so it's not possible to know what the streamer is using unless you contact Lumin or remove the heatsink itself. If I had to make an educated guess, though, the form factor suggests it could be a Rockchip based system on module (link) or something else made for embedded computing. If that's the case, the streamer uses an ARM-based CPU (commonly found in smartphones, tablets and small board computers like the Raspberry Pi) and runs some form of Linux as the OS.
If you want to know more, it may be worth your while to post to a DIY audio forum and post some close-up pictures there or send your questions to Lumin directly.
Yea, static on a CD is grasping at straws, but it does at lease exist in the realm of possible in this universe. I did not say it was the answer, I only said some possibility may exist. I don't personally believe any effect, but have not tested it. All my CD's are in boxes in the closet. I RIP with bit-to-bit verification so it is a non-issue. Old CD players worked in real time so a lot of little issues could pop up. Not today.
If you "believe" than as I said, be happy. There is a big difference between "unknown" and "impossible" I do happen to know how IP works. I made a pretty good living at it.
I suggest you examine the IP stack from layer 1 to when you get the application layer providing a steady clocked PCM to the DAC. Maybe some crappy streamer did not do a decent job on their NIC and some noise is getting to the system. Just like early USB that were not addressing the reality of the input. Band aids can mask bad design. I prefer to fix the problem than cover it up.
Yes, I do expect almost all parameters of audio, analog and digital, to improve. I expect measurements will improve.
First, claiming to know why a bulk eraser works on CDs is a red flag. I have a Zerostat. I use it on my records. Tried it on CDs back in the day and it did nothing.
It is obvious you have not tried an audio grade Ethernet switch in a stereo system but you already “know” it doesn’t do anything.
I’m an engineer but when it comes to hifi I don’t pretend to know what will work or always how it works. I know isolating an amplifier from vibration works but no idea why transistors are sensitive to vibration- tubes maybe.
Most in this hobby are applications specialists. We don’t have to know in detail how digital or the internet works. We apply boxes, cables and tweaks to achieve the best sound possible. Sometimes not knowing that something should not work is how breakthroughs happen.
Somebody thought to put bicycle wheels on the first airplanes. It solved the problem of takeoffs and landings. More sophisticated landing gears followed. Likewise, the discovery’s we make today in streaming will become standards in a few years possibly.
With all this ‘engineering’ posturing, your answer doesn’t address John Swenson’s treatise nor my personal experience with using Isolators and clocked switches on ethernet connections. And your point on digital vs. analogue is primitive and off topic. Just keep proselytising, I won’t listen or comment anymore.
To be clear, I am a hard core "listening is what counts" audiophile and have been for longer than most here have been alive. But I am also an engineer and understand how some of this technology works. Physics are the same for everyone regardless of belief.
What this combination tells me is that as good as our classical measurements are, they are either incomplete or we are not interpreting them in a way to enlighten us. There is no measurement of "musicality". A scientist looks for the differences and tests to identify them. A believer just puts their head in the sand and ignores any facts or viewpoints that do not align with theirs.
A curious feature about humans: If we "believe" our brain may well skew what we hear to align with our belief. If that makes your music sound better, then great as it is the music that matters.
Tony, Believe in your CD eraser. No argument other than there is no law of physics that supports it as last I checked, aluminum and styrene were non-ferris. Is it possible that the extra handling is draining a static charge that could bias the photodiode? Doubtful, but within the laws of physics in this universe. An old "Zero-Stat" may do better. They were critical back in the low humidity of Colorado for LPs. I will keep using my old RS bulk eraser left over from my tape days to de-gauss chisels and screwdrivers.
Yea, can't go wrong with a Cisco. On the cheap end Netgear is usually reliable. For home use, a dumb hub should suffice. Maybe if you have a couple of gamers in the house you may want a managed switch.
OK, streamers. Not everyone wants a big PC in their living room so a "stereo" looking box and combining with preamp functions is useful for the use case. Most can be used with an external DAC.
Just remember, while in the digital domain, the bits you start with are what was on the source file. There is no way to add any information, only mess it up by poor timing, bad DSP algorithms, etc. A good example is understanding digital filtering overshoot and how that can cause "digital clipping" with all these loudness wars CDs and how the oversampling interprets peaks. Digital filters overshoot just like analog! So a 0 dB peak run through the filter could cause clipping and the harsh distortion that causes. So, now to the argument for and against NOS and analog filters or adding a tube buffer stage to add various combinations of masking distortion. :)
PS: Under the hood, A Ferrari ( I have friends that had them) is nothing but an unreliable Fiat with an attitude. Terrible reliability, not much fun to drive around town, and a Tesla will out-run it. Inexcusable that for the price, they are not more reliable than a Corolla. I'll stick with my Stag. I can weld tubes better than a 308!
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