I’ve always had my speakers on carpet, but alway feel my system could be a little more livelier. Is it the carpet that absorbs life out of the sound?
mike
ONLY balance between absorption, reflection and diffusion matter.... Only this balance...
Mechanical control of vibration with springs if possible will matter yes...
One thing is sure: i cannot understand room coustic at distance but only by listening experiments in this room...The distribution of acoustic properties of furmiture walls, and of any devices in the room will make huge impact... This is why just advising about the size and geometry of the room is too general information to optimize a room...
And the specific properties of the speakers not on specs sheet but in this specofic room will matter...
Then a rug can be good or bad, it is relative to the room/speakers properties and the material of the carpet and his location if it is a small one...
Acoustic is complex matter so much so, that many people can claim that their room is good without any acoustic treatment... They assimilate a not too bad room compared to their past experience with an OPTIMIZED room /speakers relation and they decided that any acoustic treatment and control is useless... We are free and if our ears are delighted why not? But acoustic optimization is an objective process guided by the ears not an opinion...
This is why acoustic is completely underestimated...
I will not speak about the most important tool, save to name it : Helmholtz resonators and diffusers tubes, what i called mechanical control over only passive material classical treatment... This mechanical control is what add something very important: the optimized relation of the room/speakers to your ears...Acoustic cues are not only Clarity, but are numerous others : bass control, dynamic, timbre, imaging, soundstage out of the speakers plane, listener envelopment /source width ratio or LEV/ASW, etc all these acoustic factors need to be improved by passive material treatment and need to be optimized by mechanical control with Helmholtz devices... it is complex to tune the devices yes, but it takes only time...
it is way more fun than upgrading with big money if you have a dedicated room for sure but even if it is in a living room some devices could be used and made esthetical...
Listening experiments are the more fun experience possible in audio...
A remark:
Any recording is an ARTIFICIAL FREE trade-off set of choices by the recording engineer...These choices made clear to us that the recording dont reproduce the original lived acoustic event but present an acoustical PERSPECTIVE on it or from it...
Then from this specific recording information choices there is no "reproduction" of the acoustical cues CONVEYED by the system play back analog/digital chain but there is a TRANSLATION through the system with his variable accuracy properties to the acoustical cues of your own speakers/room relation and to your specific ears...
Then unbeknownst to many there is TWO acoustic perspectives in relation with one another from any musical lived event translation: the recording choices and your speakers/room choices... Your room cannot be neutral like some think... It is impossible....Guess why?
Because each speakers/ room is completely different from an another one... And no ears/brain had the same training, innate taste, history, and biases...
There is no reproduction in high fidelity, it is an electronical engineer way of speaking about his goal : the least possible negative impact from the electronical design between two set of acoustic cues, the original one to be comveyed and the listener room one in wehich they will be translated into...... For the acoustician and for the listener there is only a TRANSLATION...
We are not RCA dog, we listen WITH and THROUGH the speakers/ room/ears/brain, not to the gear alone be it a gramophone pavilion like the RCA dog or an amplifier...
"cd318, yes absolutely. The ears perceive the result of an acoustic generator (the speaker) inextricably influenced by the room they are playing in. The approach to this is to try and limit the damage of the marriage.
Whether we like it or not, and many do, the room is an inevitable part of the sound we experience.
I wonder if anyone has ever tried to play their system outdoors?
The closest I ever got was to lend mine for an engagement party set in very large hall, I'm guessing 25 metres long by 15 wide and maybe 7 high. It was ok, if a little small sounding.
Domestic systems are basically small boxes operating within larger boxes.
I have wall to wall carpet in my ‘Music Room’… I bought a pair of ZU, DW that have a vent hole/slot in the bottom of the cabinet. They sounded nice but had way to much bass. At the advice of a friend I ordered a pair of ‘Butcher Blocks’ to fit the size of the speaker cabinets. Once I put those speakers on top of the wood blocks, it sounded WAY better! It took away the muddy too much bass sound. The bass became much more ‘Punchy’ instead of ’Boomy’…
@rixthetrick, Broad-band absorbers can be bought from the likes of GIK etc. who charge crazy amounts for a simple thing so I prefer to make my own. There is much info on how to DIY them and a search on the net will turn up lots.
With an overhead panel (or cloud) and if you have sufficient height an excellent absorber can be fabricated. The thickness of and the distance from the wall or ceiling is what determines the frequency range of absorption. That's why carpets and thin drapes only effect a narrow range of frequencies which is not what we are trying to achieve.
Usually a frame 4" deep is built to accommodate 2 x 2" thick Owens Corning 703 fibre panels. These come in 2'x4'x2" With a ceiling absorber a frame 4'x6'x4" is worthwhile so don't waste effort on less. In the 4x6 frame you place 3 doubled up panels sided by side. Cover the frame in some nice fabric by stapling it to the back edge of the frame and attach it to the ceiling. Broad-band absorption in place! A pack of 6 panels is available for about $80 I have bought panels from demolishers for about $10 each.
Now for the best part: if you don't mind the looks and have the height you can vary the distance below the ceiling. Placed flat against the ceiling is fine but it's effect can be enhanced by lowering it from the ceiling. I suspend it by a few links of light chain from cup hooks. Greater distance from the ceiling will extend the lower frequencies that are absorbed. 2" helps, more if you have the height. I have hung some with the front of the frame 2" (edge closest to you) and the rear about 5 or 6" below. I like the look and it further broadens the range.
A friend's wife asked for the panels to be separated so we made 3 frames 2'x4' and spaced them about 3" apart and the end result was rather smart.
These can/should be used as first reflection point absorbers.
I favour a broad-band absorber on the ceiling preferable to carpet as a means of dealing with floor to ceiling absorption.
Great, this is the area in which I need more information in order to make an informed decision. I know that my next move is on the ceiling, and your position of broadband absorption aligns well with what I have been reading.
How to implement that, for my particular needs, that I am very unsure of. @lemonhaze- I’d like to know more about what you’ve done, how you went about it, researched it, implementation and resulting impressions please?
I can take it to DM (PM) if you’d prefer, as I am really interested, hopefully you're willing to share it?
@OP, there is a lot of nonsense being sprouted here through misunderstanding. Absorption in a room is necessary to reduce the time it takes sound to decay but the absorption needs to work over as wide a bandwidth as possible.
If sound is left to decay in an untreated room the result is smeared sound, congestion and loss of detail and nuance.
A carpet is, because of its limited thickness, a narrow-band absorber, and if you have wall to wall carpet as I see you do, then you will be absorbing only a limited frequency range and because there is so much carpet there will be information lost, resulting in an imbalanced sound.
Successful treatment is achieved by broad-band absorption.
@artemus_5mentions finding hard floor and a rug helped.
@fatdaddy2 described a simple experiment which is a good idea. The sheets of plywood will negate some of the damage of wall to wall carpet. I favour a broad-band absorber on the ceiling preferable to carpet as a means of dealing with floor to ceiling absorption. This makes more sense if you consider that the human ear has evolved to allow for floor reflections.
I had speakers spiked on w2w carpet for many years. I just had carpet removed and hardwood floors refinish. I am now using Herbies Gliders with spiked speakers on the hardwood floors. It sounds more lively, open and detailed. I think its a big improvement. I am happy with the result.
@g_nakamoto We were lent a pair of McIntosh MC501 with the matching pre for at least 12 months some years ago, while the development of a customer's pair of speakers was undertaken.
They sure had some drive, so yeah I'm thinking you're not going to lack energy in your room at all.
I have only got 400 Watts a side and I don't use even close to nearly all of it ever.
@hiendmmoe- have you any thoughts about the varying responses so far?
In my experience having my systems in 3 different rooms with different flooring throughout the years, the best sound comes from wood/tile floor with a thick rug in front of the speakers. A fully carpeted room sounds a bit dead but that can be resolved if diffusion is added to the ceiling and/or walls for balance. If the speakers are inherently bright then perhaps nothing is required to be done.
The spikes under the Isoacoustic Gaias made a big difference compared to the granite plinths I had under the speakers. The speaker feet now directly couple to the concrete floor below.
In my system, the floor carpet helps tame a lot of echo. The music sounds very lively and nothing sounds dead. Experiment with the wall treatments and remove some if you find they deaden the music. Do you have treatment at the second reflection point? If yes, experiment with that.
If you want to experiment, get yourself a couple of sheets of 4x8 ABX plywood, and place underneath and in front of your speakers. Do you like the difference in the sound? A lot quicker and cheaper than tearing out your carpeting for wood or other hard surface flooring!
You could always cut the boards up to make diffusers when you’re done.
@hiendmmoe- Oh man, I can’t believe I didn’t at least have a look to see if you have a system page. After seeing it, wow cool gear mate. When did you last clean all connectors, someone reminded me and yeah it livened up immediately.
I have bottom ported OHM Walsh 4's sitting on carpet in a well damped room. End result is accurate but not very dynamic sound.
When speakers are placed on 16"X16" acrylic bases the sound changes dramatically; dynamic sound and considerable more bass, mid-bass not as accurate with minor coloration in male and female voices.
However, the overall satisfaction level is greater with the speakers on a solid base but I do need to tweak that mid-bass
I have found that in general, the bigger the room, the less sound treatment it likely needs it. No idea what speakers etc you're running but as said previously, make sure the speakers them sit firmly on the bare floor or w/ spikes going through the carpeting. Then maybe try spacing the speakers further apart & then toeing in them even up to a 45 degree angle. Also, try slightly angling up the speakers and inch or so in the front so the midrange & tweeters are more directly facing your your head.
Also, completely differently, try disconnecting all cabling & cleaning the cable ends & whatever socket or connecter they go into & replacing them.
A lot of dependencies here. If you want to experiment, get yourself a couple of sheets of 4x8 ABX plywood, and place underneath and in front of your speakers. Do you like the difference in the sound? A lot quicker and cheaper than tearing out your carpeting for wood or other hard surface flooring!
Recording studios have more reflective construction because they are aiming to create a natural reverb that adds dimensionality to the sounds of instruments and helps them gel together in a mix.
Recording studio control rooms are designed completely differently precisely because you don't want lots of reflective surfaces superimposing their sonic signature on the output from the monitors.
Yes I have a few sets of springs. Feet of silence as well as discs of silence and a spring manufacturers setup with ebony and crystal s. I have a set of harbeth slh5 speakers. It was quite amazing how a speaker stand change made them better. The speaker stands are open and as we know with those speakers the box vibrates with the music. The also high end stands I had before the top of the stand was a full plate and the boxes didn't sound the way they were made too. In my opinion speakers are not made to sit directly on carpet for many reasons first off they are not solid in there footing set that way. The speakers have to be solid and not moving to get the correct image. Secondly the box was not designed to be set on an absorping pad. Just my thoughts.
@retiredfarmer- Hi Tom
Many of us now decouple using springs, others have had success with other technologies. There are entire threads on isolation with some really positive responses.
@hiendmmoe- can you share with us some information about your room and system?
Room dimensions, any treatments used, speakers and electronics?
Genre of music most enjoyed when listening?
I read this different and perhaps I have come to the wrong idea. But here it goes. I am thinking that perhaps the speakers are sitting on the carpet without spikes etc. Anytime I have just looked a set of speakers down they sound dead. I have had numerous things u set speakers cement sidewalk blocks under Maggie's, two inch think hardwood under box speakers spikes down to the floor and feet between the speakers and wood blocks. I have had steel leveling plates with hardwood blocks between the plates and the speakers. When I set a pair of speakers with down firing ports in my home theater setup. They sounded dead. I went out to my garage and picked up a couple of pieces of plywood set the speakers on the plywood much better life again. Lol that reminds me I need to make a proper pair of hardwood plates to set those on and the beats will sing more beautifully than before.
As I was thinking that he maybe talking about suck out because the speakers are not decoupled from the carpet. Just a thought.
If you’re going to err on one side or the other...to me...over-damping is preferred. At least you’ll have some coherence.
In almost all cases, carpet is good to have. Only time it’s not...is if the room is overly damped...which in most cases is never the problem. In my experience, rooms are typically under-damped.
Best to treat all the frequencies evenly with a balance of diffusion and absorption.
I've had close to the same system in 2 different rooms. One with hardwood floors and plaster walls and the other with wall to wall carpeting and drywall. Both rooms can be set up to sound very good. Hardwood floor room had a more live show feel to it. Kind of like a bar/venue. Where the carpeted room let's you hear a lot more details and subtle nuances in the recording. Hardwood floor gives a lot of songs that live room feel where as carpet and drywall let's you hear more of where the music was actually recorded. I tend to like more absorptive rooms over live. I just get so much more emotion from the recording. But I totally get liking one over the other. No wrong answer here. Enjoy what YOU like!
In my fifty years of pursuing the high end, no. In general, you want the two speakers to integrate the sound. Reflections from the wall and floor create slightly different arrival times confusing the sound. Anything that causes multiple arrival times of the same sound can be really detrimental.
I have never experienced good sound in rooms with uncovered floors or glass behind them. Planar speakers can be helped with some reflectivity behind, but not glass, maybe painted walls… not sure of why.
I thought my carpeted (Living) Room sounded pretty good. Then I removed it and installed hardwood and an area rug, Wow! Much better.I don't know that that is a rule. But I prefer the sound more now than with the w2w carpet
The proximity of the speakers to the floor means it is the very closest first reflection point, unless you have speakers sitting right besides walls (even if you have to downsize the listening triangle, bring speakers off the side walls if you can), it’s the closest surface.
Obviously I don’t know what you’re using, speakers, amps, front end or even the size of the room? If you have your speakers toed in, or what other room treatment you may or may not have?
The floor coverings would not be the first place I’d go hunting for the lack of lifelike presentation. And musical instruments are often bright, sharp and startling sounding in real life, so yeah I can see you’d want that. Flavor!
Your question, for any of us trying to respond with useful information will require enquiry - This opinion is based solely on the assumption that your response coming off the floor is predominantly off axis. The midbass and tweeters should not be firing at the floor, they should by varying degrees be aimed at your head (ears).
On axis for full impact, slightly off axis to attenuate brightness, with your listening apparatus on the same plane as the tweeters - in general.
If the floor entirely absorbed every bit of energy it was presented, it shouldn’t make for more than a meager portion of the voicing of your loudspeakers, if the tweeter is at ear height with you sitting in a standard listening chair.
Please by all means elaborate on what you’re using, and in what conditions it’s playing?
^+1^
If one is using line arrays or planers, then carpet has less of an effect.
One could look at the “Spinorama” measurements and basically the more directional a speaker is, then the less that the room affects it.
If the speakers are more leaning towards onmi, then that room better have some treatment.
I would go for a rug, and if the sound is too thin, then add some tone control… or a way to add more treble to direct path.
A severely over damped room, directional speakers, and nearfield listening is way different than omnis in a bright room.
So you probably need to consider more than just the rug, as a total system includes the room and the speakers.
Carpet certainly absorbs sound (as does plush furniture, etc), but absorbs 'life' out of it? I guess that's pretty subjective. I've always had wall-to-wall carpets and ain't no shortage of life coming out of my speakers, unless there's a shortage of life to the music.
The proximity of the speakers to the floor means it is the very closest first reflection point, unless you have speakers sitting right besides walls (even if you have to downsize the listening triangle, bring speakers off the side walls if you can), it's the closest surface.
Obviously I don't know what you're using, speakers, amps, front end or even the size of the room? If you have your speakers toed in, or what other room treatment you may or may not have?
The floor coverings would not be the first place I'd go hunting for the lack of lifelike presentation. And musical instruments are often bright, sharp and startling sounding in real life, so yeah I can see you'd want that. Flavor!
Your question, for any of us trying to respond with useful information will require enquiry - This opinion is based solely on the assumption that your response coming off the floor is predominantly off axis. The midbass and tweeters should not be firing at the floor, they should by varying degrees be aimed at your head (ears).
On axis for full impact, slightly off axis to attenuate brightness, with your listening apparatus on the same plane as the tweeters - in general.
If the floor entirely absorbed every bit of energy it was presented, it shouldn't make for more than a meager portion of the voicing of your loudspeakers, if the tweeter is at ear height with you sitting in a standard listening chair.
Please by all means elaborate on what you're using, and in what conditions it's playing?
FWIW, I’ve been doing some improvised acoustic treatment of a dry walled metal shed workspace with a plywood floor and the introduction of area rugs has made at least as dramatic effect on taming overall echo and bothersome high-and-mid frequency “stridency” as has all the wall treatment I’ve done. So my take is, yeah,…I could see where carpeting has potentially a big effect and possibly an overly big effect on sound deadening within a given situation.
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