Do speaker cables really make a difference ?

Make a difference?

Yes.

Another ASR troll?  
 

For years people have sold snake oil to every industry by convincing people they needed to buy this or that. Then the so called "experts" and pundits step in and support the theory blindly. I’m always going to be skeptical unless faced with scientific data...not theory.

@dadawada What about using your own ears? I find that by reading reviewers I’ve learned to trust over the years I can get a pretty good idea of what a component sounds like and which ones I’d like to audition. Plus, with the proliferation of and access to used equipment these days it makes trying things out at home fairly feasible despite the ongoing disappearance of good dealers. Not saying measurements aren’t important because they surely are, but not sure putting them above subjective opinions from people you trust and/or who seem to have similar tastes/hearing as you might be like fighting with one hand behind your back. Just my $0.02 FWIW.

troll

I'm more tech and scientific minded myself. While it makes common sense that more of anything (larger cable with more metal) would be better, I'd like to see empirical data showing this to be true.

For years people have sold snake oil to every industry by convincing people they needed to buy this or that. Then the so called "experts" and pundits step in and support the theory blindly. I'm always going to be skeptical unless faced with scientific data...not theory.

The other thing I think is missing is the reality I would think that the right answer is "it depends". I would think if you had completely ultra high-end everything then yes connecting everything together with high quality cabling makes sense. A good example of this is network cabling. Though Cat5 cabling might look like Cat6a cabling they are vastly different. Cat5 will probably top out at around 1GB of data max while Cat6a is rated to 10GB. Obviously the ability to carry more data signal is a direct relationship to the cable itself and it's shielding.

But like the Cat6a example above, what if the rest of my network can only perform at 1GB or less. Does it make sense to have Cat6a cable? Maybe...maybe not. If I can only consume 1GB or less then the Cat6a is overkill even if it does make me feel better.

@dentdog of course. That "expectation bias" explanation is utter BS. I have drawers full of audio cables, sometimes I swap them around, just for the sake of it, I already own them and have no "expectations" for "better" sound, but it sounds different every time. Same goes for power cord, I was rearranging my system lately and thought I would swap the various power cords around again and try them on different components but only ONE arrangement (this power cord on THAT device, and so on) gives me magic. The rest sounds vastly inferior. I already own the power cords, only the different requirements of the various electronics in my system decide which power cord goes where, not novelty or price or "pride of ownership". That argument is for deaf "audiophiles" with a lousy system.

@randym860 EVERYTHING has a sound signature. It's not alway the tone, or the frequency curve, it can be "precision", "depth", "width", "prat". Nothing is absolutely neutral and that includes cables. Some are closer to neutrality, for sure, but absolute neutrality doesn't exist.

I just want my cables to send through what is there not change it. This takes us back to simply proper gauge for length and amount of power you have.

And how do you know which cables do not change anything in the signal path?

I had a very high resolution system, and added flat copper speaker wires to the system. The change and improvement in sound was very audible. The cables were wide, and flat. That drastically increases surface area, while maintaining cross sectional area. The improvement in sound was most noticeable when listening to vibes.

I keep seeing comments about the different sound you get from different cables. I don't want cables with a "sound signature" I just want my cables to send through what is there not change it. This takes us back to simply proper gauge for length and amount of power you have.

I hate to sound Prickish, But i have learned that the better the audio gear, the more noticeable changes are to the ears. Once i stepped up to more higher end gear as in components, the cables made more of a difference to me. Stepping up in components were very noticeable, then adding different cables. I tested 2 sets of speaker cables on my basement system, The dealer brought them over to listen as well. One set was very close to what i had, $600.00 the next pair for $1300.00 sounded like someone covered the speakers with blankets. The dealers face turned red.

Find a dealer that will let you take the cables home, all the reviews in the world can't prepare you for what they will sound like in your home.

@rsa speaker cables improvement' leading to lowering loop resistance and inductance, does make sound impact. the longer cable is the more impact you will hear. 4 Ohms speakers also will show higher impact vs 8 Ohms set. 

How about one's perception involving speaker cables you may enjoy thoroughly on a trial loan but they're the most expensive? I mean, I don't want to like them better but it's pretty undeniable as to the benefit. I want to like lamp cord better. 

My overriding measure of listening pleasure is lack of listening fatigueWas rocking it for close to six hours last night. Purist aqueous. Hate to pay but may have been reeled in. Fourth set tried, one more to go.

@jasonbourne52 you never let go, do you? don't you get tired of repeating yourself again and again and again? it's both pathetic and hilarious.

Of course they do, just like everything else, power cords included (big time).

Do not listen to the naysayers. All they do is repeat stupid stuff they have read in 1973. Maybe they once tried some cheap-@ss Monster Cable (LOL) and didn't hear a difference (no kidding?). In a decent system, swapping cables can be as audible as swapping amps, and sometimes more audible than swapping DACs. Of course, going from multi strand OFC 16 brand A to multi strand OFC 16 brand B won't necessarily give a huge difference, sometimes it does, sometimes not. But compare your favorite lamp cord to a quality, well engineered cable, be it solid core, ribbon, whatever, different materials, and the difference will be very audible. 

@soix 

If you wanna stop messing around with entry-level cables, buy these Acoustic Zen Satori cables at a great price and go to the next level.  If they don’t work out just turn around and sell them at little/no loss as there’s a fluid market for AZ cables.  Just do it.  You won’t be disappointed. 
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649912537-acoustic-zen-satori-shotgun-speaker-cable-8ft-spades-at-both-ends/

Thanks for the heads up, I will take a look.

My experience has led me to consider cabling selection equal to component and speaker selection. Specifically how they all perform - and sound - in unison. This initially was a little frustrating because I didn’t budget for it, but that faded as I realized it was one more way to further improve the quality of the experience.

It was easy to recognize the differences in speakers. Then came components. Last and most challenging for me to wrap my head around was how changing a cable could be such a significant variable in the equation. To be fair, some cables less or more obvious than others. So I definitely can relate to the doubters.

It is a journey. A reproduction of experience through electrical and wave propagation. One best experienced through observation without persecution. From truth - seeing things as they are - flows compassion. And when you hear it, the experience is undeniable.

As with all things: yes, within reason.
In my humble opinion, only two criteria to watch for:

- diameter of the copper wire: wider = less resistance

- length of cable: shorter = less resistance.
That’s it. You don’t have to spend a lotta money for that muffler, err … cable.

Buy any good quality and you are done. One song with different download source can hear a different sound why they can’t show one cable sound louder than other :).

@zlone If you wanna stop messing around with entry-level cables, buy these Acoustic Zen Satori cables at a great price and go to the next level.  If they don’t work out just turn around and sell them at little/no loss as there’s a fluid market for AZ cables.  Just do it.  You won’t be disappointed. 
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649912537-acoustic-zen-satori-shotgun-speaker-cable-8ft-spades-at-both-ends/

@thyname I love Venn diagrams, I just love them.  No really I do. 

I second the solid core wire. Even better is magnet wire. Insulation is the key. Stored energy in the insulation (dielectric constant) is the issue. 

From Electromec

"UNWANTED ENERGY STORAGE IN CABLES – DIELECTRIC CONSTANT"

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• A wire’s dielectric constant is related to the energy stored in the insulation.
• Lower insulation dielectric constants are preferred for high-speed data applications
• This parameter must be tightly controlled for impedance-controlled systems.

They (and other cables) make a huge difference. Forget the "science"; what matters is, can you hear it or not. If you can, it's important. If you can't, it's not important.

It's been my experience in some 15+ years of hardcore effort electronics development that I can in fact hear nearly everything. Could probably count on 1 hand the areas where could not.

That said, I can heartily recommend Audience. Their Morre treatment really does change the conduction (can hear it) and simply put, nothing else gets out of the way of the music like Audience. Certainly not at the price point at least, likely safe to say. Audience have been kind enough to Morre treat several parts for me (inductors, caps) and lots of excellent chassis wire, which I use exclusively lately to outstanding effect.

My pals and I had been using AU24sx generally already. Hard to beat that for bang for the buck IMO. Then I was impressed enough with Audience Front Row (and Morre treated XO-M caps) that I asked for dealership status and was kindly granted.

I completely concur and agree 100% with this review: https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/963

If it interests you, feel free to reach out. TK tekaudiospecialties1@gmail.com www.tekaudiospecialties.com

For me: 99.9% Pure single strand OCC Copper in a PTFE sleeve with a textile jacket. Nothing less and nothing more and it doesn't cost $1K per foot......Jim

Thanks for all the responses. I am thinking about trying Anti Cables speaker wire. It's very thin wire and unless they made the reviews up themselves, they are highly thought of by different users. Any thoughts on Anti Cables ?     

I have a modest second system with the Anticable 2.1.  It is a Powernode with Elac Debut Reference speakers.  I had older cables on hand from Straightwire and XLO.  I preferred the XLO, but they were way too long.  So I took a flyer on the Anitcables since I could get a five-foot pair for only $100 and run them straight from the Powernode to the speakers without them touching the floor.  They sound great with this little system.  That said, if you have a longer run you need to consider the fact that they are very stiff.  You can bend them, but they are very different from the typical flexible cable.

@thyname Good illustration.  Thanks for sharing.

That has to be the most dumbass analogy that I have heard on confirmation bias. You folks don’t realize such known and true cognitive disorder works both ways. By definition, confirmation bias is the tendency we as humans have in seeking information and facts that confirm existing beliefs, rather than questioning them or seeking new ones.

Yes, people who believe speaker cables make a difference are not immune from confirmation bias. Let’s be real, all humans do. But, whatever they believe, is based on actual experience, and ownership of said cable. By definition, experience and experimentation ARE in a way objective facts. The “elephant” they actually “saw”. You on the other hand, base your opinion generally on stuff you read on the internet. The “elephant “ you never saw. So, who is the most “sick” from the cognitive dissonance ?

Another observation I have from “following” naysayers on audio forums: you spend so much time, energy, and effort in an attempt to “prove” what does NOT work. Debunk and disprove stuff. And almost none on what actually works. Why? Perhaps that way, by sharing YOUR experience on what works and how and why it works, you could become more useful to the Audio community? Actually contributing something 

The confirmation bias story I like best:

A man was walking in Manhattan with a bag of salt slung over one shoulder.  Every few yards he took a pinch and threw it over his left shoulder.  Someone came up to him and asked him why he was doing it.

'Keeps the elephants away.'

'But there aren't any elephants for miles around here.'

'Effective, isn't it.'

Unless you have access to exotic conductors, the 'amount of metal' (i.e. gauge) of the cable/wire is the best measure. That having been said, if decent gauge lamp cord isn't good enough for you, paralleling 2 or 3 strands ought to do the trick. Thank you Dr. Ohm. If you are concerned with increasing capacitance(?), a cable containing the same amount of metal as the 3 lamp cords would have the same capacitance issue. Electric current is remarkably disinterested in other details except for loops in the wiring and oxidized connectors.

Post script: 

I got some anticables many years ago and they sound fine.

As previously remarked: at some point accept happiness in how your system performs.

Yes, in my case cables used anywhere in the system have an effect on sound. Including speaker wirings and even the electronic PCB cards tracks have an effect. I had an old tube preamplifier I disconnected all the PCB tracks and replaced them with point to point wirings. The sound improved a lot.

If you want to test try these tow cheap cables below recommended by Whathifi. Try them separately first and then both connected in parallel (Make sure the cables get enough burn in time first). The Clearwater is good with treble while the Rocket is good with bass. I use them connected in parallel.

Van den Hul The Clearwater and AudioQuest Rocket 11

Even the wires in the crossover coils have an effect. I replaced the LF filter coils with Jantzen Audio WaxCoil 12awg and the sound got better. I will replace the rest soon, I had already replaced the capacitors some time ago.

For me speaker cables made a difference. And if you’re curious I encourage you to experiment. Then you can be the judge. 

I thought this subject was a “dead horse “ too but, oh well.

My Acoustic Research AR 3a’s were in ‘74 ordered with AR speaker cables and they turned out to be lamp cord, 50’ each I recall.

Upgraded to KHorns in ‘81 and kept the cords, believing, like Paul Klipsch, that finely made, expensive speaker cables were bull****.

My brother gave me some unwanted, not-so-high-end Monster cables and I was quite honestly floored by how incredibly better the sound quality became…...placing me firmly in the believer camp.

Absolutely they can but only worth it perhaps once you get pretty much all the rest right first.

Type of speaker cable and models within a brand have sonic differences. And it really matters.  

  I see the “ lamp cord comment “ by the same contributor.  So do you still run the thin red, white and yellow interconnects? According to you , it’s just wire. Why do you roll tubes ? They’re just metal and glass.  Some poor village is deprived of an idiot …. Go home. 

Once you try Fidelium in your rig you'll have your answer. 

What happens to the sound(signals) when the signals  meet the cheap zip cord like internal speaker wires?

1 - the internal wiring of speakers is not as important, because (a) they are very, very short runs, way shorter than the speaker cables, and (b) they are inside the cabinets (not subjected to other environmental factors associates with the speaker wire going from the amp to the speakers).

2 - Good speakers use good internal wire, and not crap / zip cords.

Hopefully I did not waste my time writing this, as I smell a snarky question, like you folks always do. Oh well...

OK assuing all the wires attached to the components are top shelf(and likely costly)and the synergy is perfect. What happens to the sound(signals) when the signals  meet the cheap zip cord like internal speaker wires?  It can't be good can it, How can it be good?

if you can hear the difference, they do

I just upgraded my speaker and interconnect cables to the Neotech Sahara rectangular OCC from harmonic Tech round OCC what a difference as good as around OCC is the rectangular OCC is even better, not cheap but well worth it.

Have just upgraded from Morrow Audio SP6 to SP7.  And once again, the better the cable, the better the sound of my system.  Specifically, better resolution and imaging, and perhaps a tad more bass now that they are breaking in somewhat...it's obvious to me that one can get very carried away w/the amount of money invested in I/Cs and SCs; the prices of some exceed the total $ that I've put into my entire system...but the caliber of your components should determine where this "law of diminishing returns" kicks in..I'm not there.

JB52, get help, man!

Having recently replaced my Blue Jeans speaker cables with Mogami, I can weigh in on this discussion. Two totally different sounds, for sure. After playing the Mogami's for a couple months I was not so sure they were what I was looking for and switched back to the BJC's, big change and I prefer the sound. I will switch back to the Mogami's once more to get a fresh impression, but likely looking at trying something else in the "lower" cost range.

Yes, wires do make a difference.

You can ignore anyone who gives an explanation that better cables do not work. Basic physics equations don’t properly explain sound dynamics. The basic equations don’t account for anything.

Also, watch out for any comparisons using Monster Cables. Those cables aren't really any good, and people using those to state that there is no improvement need to look at some other brands. I would agree, Monsters aren’t any better than cheap ones, but that has not been the case with other brands.  Actually, I've found that Monoprice interconnects do sound better than the Monsters I have owned.

You mentioned that you were going to try Anticables. I’ve had really good experiences with them. I replaced much more expensive cables with Anticalbes when I moved into my current house. Because of the way the house is set up, I needed to use 45 ft speaker calbes and run the cables through underground conduit (not an ideal setup in any way). But frankly, they sound better than the 8ft cables that they replaced. My wife (who has fantastic hearing, but doesn’t care about equipment--the perfect judge) noticed the improvement right away.

Don’t be put off by the thickness of the cable. The important part of the thickness is the copper core. Actually, cables work better when the core is thick and the sheath is thin. Marketing and cost are better when the opposite is true.

When I was buying these, I had a good conversation with the owner. Frankly, his design explanations made a lot of sense.

I would try them. They have a 30 day return policy if I remember correctly. Return them if they don’t work for you.

@ebm 

two exclamation points?  This loquaciousness is getting out if hand.

And so does garlic for warding off vampires. 

I especially enjoyed the "proof" that people who make their living selling extremely expensive audio equipment wouldn't market extremely expensive audio equipment unless it worked.

The Cables forum is intended for those who believe cables make a difference in how their systems sound. True Believers only! It's not a forum, it's a temple.

A couple of comments on "confirmation bias":

The exact opposite effect can happen as well -- rigid skepticism. When a new/different concept is introduced, there’s the prospect that it may peg the needle on our "BS meters". Everything we’ve been taught, our life experiences AND our common sense tells us that it can’t be true. Then, the unthinkable happens. We actually give it a listen and <insert EXPLETIVE(S) here!!!!>.

This is exactly how I was dragged kicking and screaming into what are modern staples in quality audio reproduction. As an avid skeptic. As a dealer in the mid 70’s I made a "courtesy purchase" of some meaty speaker cables. The "courtesy purchase" occurs when you like the rep (or find them to be somewhat credible, or both), or his company, and just what to make them happy (or, shut them the heck up). These massive cables hung on the pegboard for months, sealed in their factory packaging. During each monthly visit, I would be asked if had listened to them yet. The answer was consistent: "I haven’t gotten around to it yet". I’m not sure of what the actual motiviation was, but I finally broke them out and took them home. We’ll just say my life has never been the same since I discovered that certain cables shouldn’t be used on a quality 2-slice toaster -- much less a piece of serious audio gear.

Fast forward 20 years, and a concept that is often rebuked here was introduced. Same mindset. Same hesitation. But, I was finally shamed into listening. Yep. Eye and ear opening. That’s when the terms "intellectual" and "humility" became permanently engrained of my vocabulary.

Here’s MHO on cables in general:

I’ve experienced situations where a smaller gauge, well-engineered cable kicked the crap out of a big gauge cable in 95% of the audible range. There’s more to this cable thing than mere gauge or the purity of copper.

I’ve never experienced a system at any price that could not benefit from the (right) cable being attached. This includes $300 shelf systems.

Cables upgrades can make as much of a difference INSIDE of a enclosure or chassis as they do on the outside. Be adventurous. Pop the top off the chassis, or pull a woofer and look inside. You might be surprised at the upgrade opportunities that await you.

"  Do not be fooled by the diameter of the external plastic sheath: what matters is the metal content of the core. The more the better, without exception….”

How much metal content of the core shoud be in good speaker cables ?