Well, it's gonna be $600 to fix my Focals. 2 woofers and 2 tweeters. Seems quit spendy, but I'm going ahead with it. I know the dealer is kind of screwing me, but I didn't see any other way to fix them. Didn't really have a way to figure out what was wrong on my own, nor a way to buy replacement drivers. If I can get another 5 to 10 years out of them, I'm ok with it.
Do my ears deceive me??
The money is in the bank, thinking of upgrading speakers, but everything I demo is no better or worse than what I have. Willing to spend up to $6,000. Upgraditis?? My main system is Mcintosh MX 134 that I bought in 2003, with a pair of Focal 836v's and a Parasound 5250 (250w/channel) amp I bought around 2012. I either blew the tweeters or crossover on my 836's, so they are in for repair. Since I've owned them for 10 years, I was considering new speakers. The blades are way more than I would spend, but I also demoed the Kef R11s, Martin Logan xtf 200's, Mcintosh XR 100s, and B&W 703 S3.
None of them sounded better than what I'm hearing right now from my BP 2006s. Would I really need to demo them in my room to make a fair comparison?? Or are speakers just not much better than they were 20 years ago? I know I love detail, and tend to lean towards aluminum tweeters. I pretty much only listen to classic rock and roll. Of all I demoed, I really like the B&W 706s. They sounded much brighter/cleaner than the others. But they had the reciever set up so I couldn't adjust the treble/bass. I love a V equalizer curve, and bump up the bass and treble a bit on my home/car systems. Maybe I just have the good luck of prefering cheaper speakers.
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@jonwolfpell I ended up playing with both the tweeter setting and the mid. My setting only -1db on both. So my setting looks like TR1 4.3 TR2 5.1, Mid is MR1 16 and MR2 4.3, IT may be that my living room set up is fairly bright, no carpet and only one love seat.. and it's really just a 14'x14' box. My basement man-cave is completely opposite, one whole wall is sound foam, corner foam up front and tube traps. If I brought the Razz down there i would have likely left it all at factory/Greg Settings. I am right with you my friend, First thing I'd do with lotto winnings is wire Greg all the dough for a new set of Vitoria. I got to listen to a prototype while I was there. I can't begin to describe in words what that experience was like. My jaw hurt from hitting the floor. They would be an end game/Holy Grail for me. |
Back in 1993-1994 I worked as a stock guy at a store in MN called Audio King. We had most of the high end stuff back then. In the basement (warehouse area) we had a pair of Klipschorns hooked up to a Yamaha receiver that was like 60wpc. It was unreal how good they sounded off a tiny receiver. The manager told me he would blowout the klipschorns for like $3,500 to $4,500. I was a poor college student, so I couldn't buy them, but now I see them at $16,500. I did end up with a pair of KG-2's that I loved for about 10 years. |
Great story! I almost went to Greg’s place during Covid time but my business requirements mounted & when the Capitol Show was announced x& I saw he was going to be there, I just waited. I have not played with the resistors at all , what did you find when doing so? If I hit the lotto, my first purchase will be the new Vittorias ! |
@fenderu2 I chose to take the 8 hour drive from NE Ohio down to Greg's shop. Not a terrible drive. My plan originally was the same as @jonwolfpell, except it was the one ion Florida. Sadly I didn't make it to the show. Plan B was going down to meet with Greg and have a good listen.... what an experience. Good long listen to the Razz, Rival's that @jonwolfpell has and a new prototype that is destined to be a flagship. I spent most of the evening, and some of the wee hours of the next day just jamming out with Greg. It was hands down my best audio experience of my life. Greg is a hell of a guy, his wife is a delight. Excellent Mexican food right across the street from Greg's home/shop. What little sleep I got, I actually did on a very comfy bed in his shop. Greg and his wife made me feel like an old friend and a special guest. I say all of this because it may feel like sort of a stretch.. and I guess it sort of is. However If you choose to visit and listen, I'd bet you would come away feeling it was a special and worthwhile experience. IF you were closer to NE Ohio I'd be happy to host you. It would be awesome if someone in the Minn area would host. I do sort of agree with @larryi, at least that is until i started playing with the resistors supplied with my Razz to shape some of the roll off. I am already saving to trade up to @jonwolfpell 's Rivals. Exactly as he has them. Red Gum with the vintage look black cloth grills. Simply stunning. |
I went to the Capital Audiofest in Maryland to see & listen to both of them which I did multiple times over the weekend. Trip cost me about $1000 which I figured was just the cost of the speakers.o bought the pair at the show ( Red Gum w/ black grille cloths) & Greg Roberts gave over $1000 off the regular Rival price & included shipping! It all worked out well. I also was there to check out servers & Dacs & wound up w/ the Innuos Zenith Mark III & the Border Patrol because I liked the sound in the Volti room so much! It was the best, most live sounding & enjoyable sound for me that I heard by far maybe besides the Goebel speakers at $80K! |
It is VERY hard to get old school horn system sound from commercial products that are not extremely expensive. The better modern systems I've heard are custom-built using either vintage drivers or extremely expensive modern drivers. The Volti speakers are not in the same league, to me, as vintage-based systems. But, they still sound very good for someone looking for the liveliness of horn type systems and value the great wood working of Volti. There are no speakers, regardless of price that are strong on all aspects of performance; all have certain areas where they are not as strong as other aspect of performance. To me, the Razz exhibits a bit of discontinuity between the bass and upper end sound. Still a great performer for the money, but, I would listen for this to determine if it is a big deal. |
@jonwolfpell I'm completely smitten with my Razz. Spent all day yesterday with them, avoiding all the outdoor chores in the process. |
Ok, understood. Perhaps next time you could provide more info about your existing room, you will receive more to the point help. I thought you mentioned including a sub. Just one sub will make a difference when space is limited and it does not need to be huge. SVS make a micro sub for small rooms but the design will not disappoint. If a sub of any size is out of the question still attend to your room acoustics for the reasons mentioned in my previous post. Bass will appear as if by magic regardless of your final speaker choice. Good luck. |
lemonhaze, I hear what you said. I know the room is 100% important. But I can’t get 3 or 4 subs in this room. It is a bedroom, and way too small. Unless I do Goldenear/Definitive with subs built in. I stil have to be able to walk around the room without hitting something. If I ever do a dedicated listening room, I would do all the above. On a side note, I picked up an Arcam avr-30 from best buy on closeout to demo for 14 days. It sounds phenomenal, even on my old Definitive BP 2006 speakers. I haven't even hooked up my parasound external amp or run dirac yet. May try to do that on Wednesday. I think it's a keeper but will keep playing with it. As to speakers, I hope to get my focal 836s back in the next week or two. Probably going to take some time (3 to 12 months) to buy new speakers now. |
Your post above tells me a lot. "But if it's not feasible or economical to change the room, wouldn't that be a great reason for EQ." NO. You have $6000 available, spend some on room treatment which will prove to be your best investment and will leave you with sufficient to buy 2 or preferably 3 or better still 4 subwoofers. Many YouTube videos explaining this. I can see you headed for expensive disappointment with your current mindset. There is a reason you want to try and EQ the bass levels up: You have holes in your low frequency response. Big holes. Lots of precious bass disappearing into a black hole. How do I know? All rooms do, that is, until you do something about it. What to do: Buy a suitable microphone for $100 and download the free REW program. Plenty online info to help. This step will put you on the path to sanity and great sound with your existing speakers. Just do it. How does it work: The holes in the response are caused by low frequencies combining in and out of phase causing nulls and peaks. If the cancelling is a full 180 degrees out the null will be total. Less phase will produce partial nulls. What does this mean: It means a full null will produce no sound, zilch, nada. We are talking bass, bass that you want to boost with EQ. But you can't fill that hole with more power, it will just cancel with the same power and if you try, your amp will soon run out of steam and blow your tweeters! (how this fries tweeters is for another thread) How to sort this out: Add bass traps and absorption panels which will flatten the response and also consider adding minimum 2 good subs but only if they sport variable phase control. SVS an excellent choice because they can be adjusted from the listening position via a simple app. Works brilliantly. Do not try this with EQ. The subs are capable of rock concert bass. What will you hear: Bass , Bass that was never going to be heard, even if you buy new speakers that are known to produce prodigious bass. Well how can they? there will still be cancellation issues. Fill the holes and all the foundational musical information will be heard. Bass traps will reduce the decay time and the subs will vastly improve everything, including mid-range and high frequencies. I know of no other way to achieve this. You will be immersed in full rewarding bass rich music of any genre. ROOM, ROOM, ROOM is paramount. There are no guarantees in this endeavor but I can confidently state that you will be thrilled with the results. The only last bit of advice is to totally forget EQ and get a small thick rug to place between your feet for when your jaw hits the floor. 😲 |
@unreceivedogma Heh heh, that’s a good one! |
My monitor speakers cost around $2500 and their bigger brothers (slightly bigger than my old JBLs) go for around $4500. The maker of these speakers used to be the head designer at Dynaudio and Focal-JMLab. Most of their successful models were designed by him. He just charges a more down to earth price for them, not anywhere close to $20K-$30K. All the best, |
Well I can say this. In EVERY system I have ever listened to, be it home or car, i can make it sound much better to my ears than it being in the flat position. I'm not gonna buy 20,000 to 30,000 speakers so I can not need an equalizer. It's not economical, and I have better things to spend my money. Audio is important but not everything. I admit I have not demoed many speakers the last 10 to 15 years, cuz a lot of audio stores have closed up, and I've been content. Many of these brands have NO way to demo, and I'm not going to travel all over to do that. Plus I am limited in the speaker placement in my room. It's not real big, and I kind of need to stick with tall and skinny speakers. Not to flame on, but if you guys have higher end televisions. Do you get it calibrated, and never use the other settings on it? With no ability to adjust the contrast, brightness, color, and all the other variables when you watch different programs? Would you buy a guitar amplifer with no TONE controls??? I'm perplexed as to why one would want this limitation in any endeavor. If I took a hypothetical Jeff Rowland amp (1 with tone control and 1 without) what percentage of sound degradation does the 1 with tone control have??? Could he really not build them to damn near the same specs. And you could pretty much make them sound identical?? |
Not only did I have the Marantz's tone controls to fiddle with, I also had the pots on my JBLs to do the same with. The problem is, they were both too broad in scope and while it did cure the edge and bite, it was also like wrapping my tweeters and midranges with bolts of cheesecloth. Both ways just sucked the life out of the music. Unless you have the money and skill for a highly exacting device, most types of EQ are a blunt instrument, not a scalpel, as you're effecting bordering frequencies that you shouldn't be messing with, unless you like that kind of sound. I'm 69 years old with occasional but soft tinnitus, and I can hear minute changes and shifts with everything I tinker with down to some that seem like sideways moves, but I still hear them. The solution is to live with knowing that it's not perfect, but can be mighty damn fine sounding. All the best,
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soix could be right. maybe my hearing is bad. I'm 51 now, and have listened to lots of loud rock and roll since my teens. You can make the argument an eq is an extra path in the chain. But you can also use an equalizer or bass/treble to adjust for the room. I WOULD NEVER BUY SOMETHING WITHOUT IT. You are limited to 1 sound and that's it. Different sources (vinyl, cd, streamer) can all have a different sound profile, and one may want to adjust for that. Maybe the high end makers don't put it in cuz it saves them money too. I don't want this to turn into a pissing match. But if you bought something with an eqalizer. Would you just leave it in 1 setting for life, cuz it's the most accurate?? |
Many great suggestions already made I tend to agree that if you're thinking EQ is the answer then your problem is in the electronics food chain not the speakers A speaker that I have not seen mentioned as an upgrade path is Texton While a polarizing subject on this forum, my personal experience has been exceptional Perform above their price point, sound is organic, and I understand matches up well with McIntosh I do not know the proper technical terms and jargon, but in my system in my room with my music and my ears, to me it sounds like a person is singing to me and instruments are being played for me Granted they're big and boxy and need room to get away from the wall But for 6k one can get a significant amount of price performance with Texton All the best and enjoy the journey |
That takes me back to when I posted about the tone controls on my Marantz and how they could help tame some brightness and got mostly bemused responses saying, "don't". That's when that sorely missed gentleman, Almarg, chimed in to prop me back up, explaining that it's best to leave them alone, out of the signal path, that it would do more harm than good. I miss him. In support of @soix's remarks, I finally found that one must pay attention to the drivers and avoid the ones that don't perform well. Simple as that. Listen to them. There have been advances in speaker design (despite what some claim) that can put an end to the debate and you don't need to spend a fortune to get there. Some are probably tired of me saying this but my Atalante 3 monitors go almost as deep and are cleaner and have better tone and detail than my much larger JBL 4319s. That's comparing a 7" driver to JBL's 12 ". The domed tweeter is proprietary as well with a coating of the makers own design. Nothing about these drivers are off the shelf, or modified. They are made in house and only for themselves. This tweeter goes higher, cleaner, has much more detail and ambience and never once have I winced, whereas with the JBLs, I'd be rushing for the remote. The great part is, they're relatively cheap compared to what's out there, and that factor has many "audiophiles" passing on them, only to buy something more expensive and spend countless hours taming their system, looking for that bandage. All the best,
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Ahem!
Just to name a few. The use of an EQ is controversial in some ways because of how they were sold initially in the home and in some because users don’t really understand what to do with them. The absolute best scenarios where I can point to tremendous gains is in clipping bass peaks and tuning a sub to have a descending FR from 16 Hz to 80 Hz. The worst scenarios are when users try to "flatten" their speakers and end up using a horizontally flat curve. Overall I’m with Floyd Toole, and believe that EQ’s should be used sparingly and precisely. If you attempt complete "room correction" what then is the point of picking out any particular brand of speaker over another? |
btw, I have never had an equalizer help the sound of my speakers... I’ve tried numerous times. At most, I’ve used the bass/treble control, and that quite subtly. Select the speakers that can stand on their own and avoid the extra peripheral. That said, the Concept 50 + SVS idea that I gave might be nice for you because the SVS does have an EQ function so you can smoothly bring up the bass a bit if you'd like, and if you want a bit more top end from the 50 just simply use your treble tone control. That way, your only "peripheral" is your sub/app. |
I like Waytoomuchstuff's idea ^ about the crossovers. I did that very thing with my old Epi 100 speakers... brought 'em right to life again. Xover parts can age. @fenderu2 They're not $6000, but if you add a nice sub from SVS, perhaps their SVS Micro 300 for $600 (has a nice app to customize the response to your speakers and room), then you'll be up around $4000 w tax: the Q Acoustics Concept 50, which takes the tech from the Concept 500 and slims it down... and there's some argument to be made that the 50 might actually be better than the 500 once you get that sub in there w the 50s due to more precise control of the woofers and the slimline design which helps the speaker "disappear". The "silver" finish is pretty stunning, too... excellent modern speaker w robust sound and super soundstage. |
Given the infinite number of possibilities, I think it breaks down to 3 general considerations: 1) keep your speakers 2) upgrade them ((spend $6k) 3) consider performance upgrades for your existing speakers. For about 20% of the cost of an upgrade you can enjoy more of what the original designer of your speakers intended IF the budget and technology were available at the time. Replacing production grade older xover parts with newer/better stuff (along with better cabling and connection/termination methods)will bring out a level of detail and transparency you never thought possible. If the values are kept the same as the original, the general character of the speakers will remain. Just infinitely more musical. |
In a magazine interview, Mr. Lyngdorf, one of the pioneers of DSP room compensation/equalization stated that a serious audiophile carefully selecting gear for a particular room, setting up speakers in the ideal location, using appropriate room treatments, will probably achieve better sound than can be achieved with even the best DSP compensation (he makes ultra expensive versions of such). But, for the vast majority of situations, DSP compensation is the way to go if one does not have the experience, patience and ability to make no compromises in setup. |
@charles1dad I agree, but I also thought it important to point out that most high-end systems need no EQ. If the OP wants to keep using EQ that’s perfectly fine. I was just trying to be helpful that maybe he should explore the rest of his system to maybe see WHY he’s feeling the need to use EQ. That’s all. |
I am thinking about this thread. And the only clear path is not to sell the speakers. Otherwise, listen to some B&W, Sonus Faber or Focal speakers. Audition before you buy. I think that the last thing you want is a neutral speaker. @soix Here comes the EQ police! @fenderu2 better lock his doors and pull down the curtains. But seriously, there's no right or wrong. I notice that treble is emphasized on some entry-level amplifiers so pulling down the treble with tone controls may help. I'm so beyond objectivity here, do as you please. Dialing knobs is partially fun. But a passionate speaker designer prefers to tune the sound in the acoustic domain. Changing the baffle size can increase the 2kHz frequency for example. This is relevant if the driver has a 2kHz dip (some Fostex drivers do). Correcting that 2kHz dip with EQ or crossover components may result in a more 'digital' sound. |
Soix, you make a good and rational point. Yet at the end of the day a listener has to choose what sounds preferable to them and makes their listening experience enjoyable. So as always, YMMV applies. Charles |
No manufacturer — and I mean ZERO— uses any EQ in their audio systems at high-end audio shows. Why do you think that is? If Magico, Wilson, Joseph Audio, Rockport, Vandersteen, Audio Research, etc. don’t ever use EQ at shows that they pay a boatload of $$$ to attend, what do you think you know that they don’t? Are you smarter than them? If the answer is no, you really gotta think about your whole system because something is clearly off. Or just keep polishing the turd with EQ. Whatever makes you happy is all good. |
How is that all over the map. i like what I like. I actually have an Anthem MRX 300 in my basement system from 2010, so i know what anthem sounds like. I also demoed their STR line and it did nothing for me. The mcintosh I have walks all over it in stereo sound to me. How can you say something is a problem when I've been 110% happy with it, and owned it for 20 years. If I didn't like it I would have moved on along ago. |
I’ll reiterate, your problem is your Mac preamp. Its sound profile is exactly opposite of your sound preferences. My advice — buy something like this and if it doesn’t significantly improve your sound and maybe even negate the need for any EQ at all just turn around and sell it for little/no loss. My guess is once you’ve heard this in your system the Mac will never be in their ever again. |
I'm still waiting on the verdict for my Focals. The Parasound puts out 250w/channel. I've listened at loud volumes millions of times, and don't think I was pushing them any harder than I did in the past. But at the end of May something gave out. So I figured it must be due to age, as they are about 13 years old. I forgot to mention, but I do have a Klipsch SW-12 subwoofer in the system that I've owned since 1993. And it still works and thumps perfectly. But I don't use it every day either. I did run the 836's as Large, so they were getting the full audio spectrum. I probably only turn the sub on once or twice a week, if I'm listening really loud. Buy 80% of the time it's off as the speakers have adequate bass. I probably just need to keep it dialed back a bit. |
+1 for what @rodman99999 just said. |
I just noticed GoldenEar Triton 1R are on sale all over down from 4K each down to 2.5k. All the bass you would likely ever need and GoldenEar IMO does a nice job making the speaker sound of a whole. In other words the transition from the powered section is smooth to the mids and highs. They already have a small lift in the upper treble and you can dial the bass in to your preference. I would jump on those. |
What you’re doing by boosting the Bass, is clipping* your amplifier. *That’s what took out your tweeters and/or crossover. If your speakers and amp can’t keep up with your tastes in reproduction: just buy a powered subwoofer for your home listening room, reduce the curve/boost on the system's low freqs and remove that load from your main amp(s). |
Why is the lead question about whether there is something "better"? But how about just going for just as pleasing but also "different"? Over the course of life, virtually no one vacations at the same place, goes to the same kind of restaurant, drives the same car, etc. Get a second pair of speakers you like and either rotate them with the first or just replace the first for a while. Variety is the spice of life, and the notion that one can only seek out "better" is myopic.
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@OP - Keep your Focals when repaired because they have the kind of frequency response you say you like. As you have found from auditioning, current B&W's are similar. It is highly unlikely that you would respond positively to Harbeths or any other "BBC" type speaker. There are lots of other ways you could spend 6K to improve your system - for example, that puts you in the ballpark to replace your preamp with something like a Pass XP-12. |
