Do my ears deceive me??

The 2006's are Definitives.  

Speakers have made tremendous advancement in the last 20 years, as have electronics. But not all folks want different. If you are really happy with the sound of what you had, then maybe just stick with it.

Alternatively, you could go audition systems in some high end audio stores. Don’t be concerned with price. See if anything blows you away. If it does… look down the speaker companies product range to your budget. Do those sound fantastic? If not. Just enjoy your system.

Pursuing the high end is expensive and not for everyone.

In what way have speakers had a tremendous advancement in the last 20 years? Revel Salon 2 are over 15 years old and are still considered better than most anything according to plenty. Your Sonus Fabers are all paper driver… nothing new. I’m sure they sound fabulous but it’s quality and voicing not necessarily new tech that is groundbreaking. Many think the Dynaudio speakers in the 90s were the best they ever made although horribly inefficient. Same with the Sonus Faber Extrema and many others. 

so the techmology doesnt advanced??

@fac Isn't that the question that you've asked about one hundred times on your own thread?

If you enjoy the sound of the Def Tech, maybe check out GoldenEar audio?

I believe they are the same designer. GEA is just the “newer” company with the latest designs.

@mofojo 

In what way have speakers had a tremendous advancement in the last 20 years? Revel Salon 2 are over 15 years old and are still considered better than most anything according to plenty. Your Sonus Fabers are all paper driver… nothing new. I’m sure they sound fabulous but it’s quality and voicing not necessarily new tech that is groundbreaking.

My perspective as well. I realize it’s a matter of opinion but I don’t hear any “tremendous “ improvement in speakers over the past 20 years timeframe. I will concede that there’s been a turn toward the direction of pursuing and extraction of greater detail.

This can result in a different sonic presentation and signature and yet not necessarily sounding better in an overall sense. For some listeners the hyper detailed sound will be considered a “tremendous “ improvement. For other listeners, not so.

Charles
 

There are people saying that Focal drivers aren't built to the same standard as they used to. i.e. They're cheaping out on the parts. Maybe it's worth looking at driver quality and cabinet construction over the years. But why bother? 

You might like Monitor Audio...

Also I agree about Goldenear. They make some killer stuff.

I’ve only read about Monitor audio, and from the reviews, think I would love them. But don’t have a close by place to demo them GoldenEar will be on the audition list in the next couple weeks. I need the clarify from my 1st post. The B and W’s I liked the most at Best Buy were the 702 S 3’s. About $7,000 for the pair. They really sounded a lot brighter than the others, and I seem to like that. Not sibilant, but clear. Will need to demo for much longer time to see if they get fatiguing. Although, many consider Focal fatiguing, I listen to my 836 for hours each day and never get tired from them. Stilll waiting to find out the repair bill on my 836’s. Maybe I just have to be content with them for a few more years. I will admit, I’m just kind of bored, and since I’ve owned my gear for so long, maybe I’m looking for that new toy. Maybe I’m expecting things have gotten better, when there is not much difference. I will say, it is kind of amazing how much bass they can get out of small speakers now That seems like the biggest technological advancement I’ve seen. But not necessarily better sound overall 

      I know there are diminishing returns the higher up the food chain we go, but I really want to make sure I don't spend $4,000 to $8,000 for something that's maybe 20% better.   

OP-

I know there are diminishing returns the higher up the food chain we go, but I really want to make sure I don't spend $4,000 to $8,000 for something that's maybe 20% better.

You'll spend that much but only get 10% better. Maybe...

@fenderu2 It looks like you answered your own question. Cherish what you have and don’t get embarked by the hype. 

Embarked?

Yep.  I hear ya Tom on the 10%.  Gonna keep demoing and hopefully find something that blows me away.   I've saved a lot of money the last 3 years, partially thanks to covid, so maybe I just have to accept that a 10 to 20 percent improvement is good enough.  Obviously I keep my stuff for the long haul.   $5,000 to $7,000 over a 10 year span could warrant the purchase.  Plus the right brands and models can hold some or a lot of their value. 

            Years ago, I was semi tempted to move up to Focal Electras, and they were a lot cheaper 3 to 8 years ago than they are now.  WIth covid kind of ending, hopefully supply chains will get back to normal.   Had I bought those electras  back then, I could have broke even, or even maybe made a little money.  So I am not averse to going the used route too.   

see if you can find an owner or dealer of Vandersteen speakers

I would say ditch the old speakers and buy something way more expensive

You really shouldn’t need an equalizer, and the McIntosh is doing you no favors given your tastes. I’d first look for a new preamp, which I’d first recommend you look at Anthem.  If you’re using EQ something is likely wrong elsewhere.  That said, I’d say stay with Focal or take a look at Revel.  But, if you change the preamp first I think you’ll be much happier.  The McIntosh is working against you given your tastes and you’re fighting to correct for that mismatch.  That’s not fun and I’d say stop beating your head against the wall.  If you need an AVP I’d highly recommend you look at Anthem, but if you just need a stereo pre Bryston should be high on your list.  Best of luck.

    Heard Vandersteens at Audio Perfection about 20 years ago.   They were good, but didn't really seem to bump on rock and roll.  Maybe they're much better now.   Will check them out.   When I bought my Mcintosh MX 134 in 2003, it was only like $3,300.   Prior to that it was Denon or Yamaha receivers, so to me the Mcintosh was a big step up, and I've loved it ever since.   I do have it setup for 5.1, but my rears are just outdoor Klipsch speakers from a previous house.  I kind of like movies, but not to the degree I did 10 to 20 years ago.   I'm fairly content with just listening to movies in 2 channel, cuz it sounds pretty good.   I have also looked at a new processor and/or receiver with Atmos.  But I doubt I'm gonna do 7 or more channels, as the system is in a bedroom. 

 I'm semi tempted to try an Arcam AVR-20, as they are discounted, and most people say they sound a quite a bit better than Denon/marantz/anthem for music.   But there is also a lot of complaints about buggyness and reliability with them.    A used Mcintosh MX 122 or 123 also piques my interest.  I'm pretty sure I could be happy enough with a receiver/processor if the stereo sound is about equal to my 134.   I most likely will buy either speakers this year, and a receiver/processor next year.   Or vice versa.   

once they're fixed... THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR SPEAKERS...!   

You have good gear that you love.  Keep it, cherish it, nurture it.

Be happy you have a sound that's great for your ears. 

I'm right with you: I recently did some auditioning and nothing sounded more appealing to me than what I already had!  Save the money.  Don't give in to upgrade-itis for no other reason than you have money in your pocket!  Be careful of watching reviews and even going on this forum... those are the seeds of discontent, and many on here just like to think spending more gets you more, and that's simply not the case, especially when you already have good stuff that you like.  Getting new stuff tends to lead to further discontent and then chasing other new stuff, forever and ever amen.  

Invest that $6000 into mutual funds, some no load total stock index fund , and let it ride and down the road you'll be glad you did.

soix.   I do need an equalizer.   I tip the treble and bass up on most music.   And even sometimes from song to song.   In my cars I've had alpine head units and subwoofers, and am always adjusting the bass a bit for each song.   Not that I'm a bass head, but I at least like to feel it a little bit, even on songs where bass isn't prominent.  While it may not be accurate, I much prefer it.   When I dropped off my 836's for repair, I demoed a Hegel with Paradigm founders 120 and medium end Kefs, and I was perplexed as to how this sounded good.  There was no air in the voices and it just didn't sound clear.   You could be right about maybe just doing a stand alone preamp.   But there could be times when  I do want surround.   Plus it would leave my 5 channel amp with 3 being unused.   

I hear ya curtdr.  But it is time to move up.   I don't buy/trade every 3 or 4 years like some.    I'm 51 and have a good amount of other money invested.  Whatever I buy will most likely be for 10 years or more.   But I do gotta buy it right the 1st time.  

@mofojo ”In what way have speakers had a tremendous advancement in the last 20 years,… Your Sonus Fabers are all paper driver… nothing new.?”

In sound quality performance. Saying Sonus Faber speakers use paper cones is a gross abstraction. It is like saying how a 286 PC chip no different than a contemporary PC chip… they are both on silicon substrate. The amount of technology is in the design and execution.

If you listen to a 20 year old set of say $20K speakers versus a contemporary set of same priced (in dollars corrected to 2003 dollars) the difference in sound quality is simply striking… tighter bass, better imaging, better more real sounding treble. In all components. For example, I remember replacing my 15 year old Threshold amp with a contemporary Pass amp… my jaw just dropped, very similar specifications, similar weight, form factor, but the sound quality nearly brought tears to my eyes.

This is the way to evaluate advancement in high end audio… listen to it. If you listen to it and you are not blown away, that is great… keep what you have. But, when you listen to what is now possible versus 20 years ago and want better more realistic sound, the case for new stuff that caters to your values in sound is overwhelmingly compelling.

@fenderu2  for what it's worth I design my systems around my speakers and believe in that philosophy. I use Duntech and Dunlavy which are by no means modern but I believe have no equal. I've got to think there are many fantastic speakers available for your budget. Speakers that are phase and time coherent would be my choice. Vanderstein,  Snell, Theil , Dunlavy and  Duntech have these attributes. There may be others I'm sure, but in my opinion these are key attributes. Ditch the mx multichannel amp and and go for a true 2 channel. Pass labs, PS Audio... the rabbit hole is deep my friend. Peace and work hard to educate yourself and research for the best result.

I owned Def Tech BP2006's and went from there to the Mythos ST-L Super Tower. The STLs blew away the 2006's, but while the ST-L's had very good highs and lows, they lacked good mid-range.

I moved to Harbeth and REL. Leaps and bounds better for what I listen too.

My point is, if what you are listening to isn't any better than the 2006's, you are auditioning the wrong speakers. 

If classic rock is your thing, I'd be looking at something with a big driver like Tannoy.  

  That pair of alto utopias listed is intriguing.   But they weigh 170lbs and are probably too big for the room.  I would love to hear them, but not move them.

Sadly, no Harbeth dealers in MN that I know of.    Similarly, the reviews of ATC seem to be really good for dynamics, but no dealers here.   

Volti Razz would be worth a consideration. All the dynamics one needs, refined, efficient and beautiful. If you were closer to NE Ohio I be happy to host. 

Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G's

Polk L600's

Try both sets; choose one set.

Enough said.

Your welcome.

I'd hold and see if you could demo what you like where you could tweak the eq. on those B&Ws'....  Nothing worse than buyers' remorse. ;)

There's been improvements, but generally in the $s' required for the desire.

A 'v' tweak preferred?   Won't ask your age, but have your ears checked, just because....  Sometimes, the eq is due to the final link in the 'system'... i.e.,

You.  Just saying...(..and not to be rude...)

J

Often.

@OP - Keep your Focals when repaired because they have the kind of frequency response you say you like. As you have found from auditioning, current B&W's are similar. It is highly unlikely that you would respond positively to Harbeths or any other "BBC" type speaker.

There are lots of other ways you could spend 6K to improve your system - for example, that puts you in the ballpark to replace your preamp with something like a Pass XP-12.

Why is the lead question about whether there is something "better"?

But how about just going for just as pleasing but also "different"?

Over the course of life, virtually no one vacations at the same place, goes to the same kind of restaurant, drives the same car, etc.

Get a second pair of speakers you like and either rotate them with the first or just replace the first for a while.

Variety is the spice of life, and the notion that one can only seek out "better" is myopic.

I love a V equalizer curve, and bump up the bass and treble a bit on my home/car systems.

I either blew the tweeters or crossover on my 836’s, so they are in for repair.

I do need an equalizer. I tip the treble and bass up on most music. And even sometimes from song to song.

      What you’re doing by boosting the Bass, is clipping* your amplifier.

                *That’s what took out your tweeters and/or crossover.

      If your speakers and amp can’t keep up with your tastes in reproduction: just buy a powered subwoofer for your home listening room, reduce the curve/boost on the system's low freqs and remove that load from your main amp(s).

@fenderu2 ,

I just noticed GoldenEar Triton 1R are on sale all over down from 4K each down to 2.5k. All the bass you would likely ever need and GoldenEar IMO does a nice job making the speaker sound of a whole. In other words the transition from the powered section is smooth to the mids and highs. They already have a small lift in the upper treble and you can dial the bass in to your preference. I would jump on those. 

+1 for what @rodman99999 just said.

  I'm still waiting on the verdict for my Focals.  The Parasound puts out 250w/channel.    I've listened at loud volumes millions of times, and don't think I was pushing them any harder than I did in the past.  But at the end of May something gave out.   So I figured it must be due to age, as they are about 13 years old.   I forgot to mention, but I do have a Klipsch SW-12 subwoofer in the system that I've owned since 1993.   And it still works and thumps perfectly.  But I don't use it every day either.    I did run the 836's as Large, so they were getting the full audio spectrum.    I probably only turn the sub on once or twice a week, if I'm listening really loud.   Buy 80% of the time it's off as the speakers have adequate bass.   I probably just need to keep it dialed back a bit.   

Have you checked out any Spendor speakers?I own the D7,dynamite speaker.

I’ll reiterate, your problem is your Mac preamp. Its sound profile is exactly opposite of your sound preferences. My advice — buy something like this and if it doesn’t significantly improve your sound and maybe even negate the need for any EQ at all just turn around and sell it for little/no loss. My guess is once you’ve heard this in your system the Mac will never be in their ever again.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195823814883

Dude, all over the map.

I do need an equalizer. I tip the treble and bass up on most music. 

How is that all over the map.  i like what I like.   I actually have an Anthem MRX 300 in my basement system from 2010, so i know what anthem sounds like.   I also demoed their STR  line and it did nothing for me.    The mcintosh  I have walks all over it in stereo sound to me.   How can you say something is a problem when I've been 110% happy with it, and owned it for 20 years.  If I didn't like it I would have moved on along ago.   

No manufacturer — and I mean ZERO— uses any EQ in their audio systems at high-end audio shows. Why do you think that is? If Magico, Wilson, Joseph Audio, Rockport, Vandersteen, Audio Research, etc. don’t ever use EQ at shows that they pay a boatload of $$$ to attend, what do you think you know that they don’t? Are you smarter than them? If the answer is no, you really gotta think about your whole system because something is clearly off. Or just keep polishing the turd with EQ.  Whatever makes you happy is all good.

@soix 

If Magico, Wilson, Joseph Audio, Rockport, Vandersteen, Audio Research, etc. don’t ever use EQ at shows that they pay a boatload of $$$ to attend, what do you think you know that they don’t? Are you smarter than them? If the answer is no, you really gotta think about your whole system because something is clearly off. Or just keep polishing the turd with EQ.  Whatever makes you happy is all good.

Soix, you make a good and rational point. Yet at the end of the day a listener has to choose what sounds preferable to them and makes their listening experience enjoyable. So as always, YMMV applies.

Charles

I am thinking about this thread. And the only clear path is not to sell the speakers. Otherwise, listen to some B&W, Sonus Faber or Focal speakers. Audition before you buy. I think that the last thing you want is a neutral speaker. 

@soix Here comes the EQ police! @fenderu2 better lock his doors and pull down the curtains. 

But seriously, there's no right or wrong. I notice that treble is emphasized on some entry-level amplifiers so pulling down the treble with tone controls may help. I'm so beyond objectivity here, do as you please. Dialing knobs is partially fun.  

But a passionate speaker designer prefers to tune the sound in the acoustic domain. Changing the baffle size can increase the 2kHz frequency for example. This is relevant if the driver has a 2kHz dip (some Fostex drivers do). Correcting that 2kHz dip with EQ or crossover components may result in a more 'digital' sound. 

at the end of the day a listener has to choose what sounds preferable to them and makes their listening experience enjoyable. So as always, YMMV applies.

@charles1dad I agree, but I also thought it important to point out that most high-end systems need no EQ.  If the OP wants to keep using EQ that’s perfectly fine.  I was just trying to be helpful that maybe he should explore the rest of his system to maybe see WHY he’s feeling the need to use EQ.  That’s all.

@soix 

👍

Charles

In a magazine interview, Mr. Lyngdorf, one of the pioneers of DSP room compensation/equalization stated that a serious audiophile carefully selecting gear for a particular room, setting up speakers in the ideal location, using appropriate room treatments, will probably achieve better sound than can be achieved with even the best DSP compensation (he makes ultra expensive  versions of such).  But, for the vast majority of situations, DSP compensation is the way to go if one does not have the experience, patience and ability to make no compromises in setup.  

Given the infinite number of possibilities, I think it breaks down to 3 general considerations:

1) keep your speakers

2) upgrade them ((spend $6k)

3) consider performance upgrades for your existing speakers. For about 20% of the cost of an upgrade you can enjoy more of what the original designer of your speakers intended IF the budget and technology were available at the time. Replacing production grade older xover parts with newer/better stuff (along with better cabling and connection/termination methods)will bring out a level of detail and transparency you never thought possible. If the values are kept the same as the original, the general character of the speakers will remain. Just infinitely more musical.

I like Waytoomuchstuff's idea ^ about the crossovers.   I did that very thing with my old Epi 100 speakers... brought 'em right to life again.  Xover parts can age.

@fenderu2   They're not $6000, but if you add a nice sub from SVS, perhaps their SVS Micro 300 for $600 (has a nice app to customize the response to your speakers and room), then you'll be up around $4000 w tax:  the Q Acoustics Concept 50, which takes the tech from the Concept 500 and slims it down... and there's some argument to be made that the 50 might actually be better than the 500 once you get that sub in there w the 50s due to more precise control of the woofers and the slimline design which helps the speaker "disappear".  The "silver" finish is pretty stunning, too... excellent modern speaker w robust sound and super soundstage.  

btw, I have never had an equalizer help the sound of my speakers... I've tried numerous times.  At most, I've used the bass/treble control, and that quite subtly.  Select the speakers that can stand on their own and avoid the extra peripheral. 

btw, I have never had an equalizer help the sound of my speakers... I’ve tried numerous times. At most, I’ve used the bass/treble control, and that quite subtly. Select the speakers that can stand on their own and avoid the extra peripheral.

That said, the Concept 50 + SVS idea that I gave might be nice for you because the SVS does have an EQ function so you can smoothly bring up the bass a bit if you'd like, and if you want a bit more top end from the 50 just simply use your treble tone control.  That way, your only "peripheral" is your sub/app.