I'm looking to run a dedicated 30a and dedicated 20a line to my system directly from the fuse box. I currently have some florescent lights and some other junk on the line so I'm hoping it will be an improvement. Things sounds like they are straining somewhat when you crank things up. The amp will go on the 30a line and the digital stuff on the 20a. Anyone done this and saw improvements?
Well, I think this is overkill, but the suggestion I gave you was exactly what I did for my workshop, running 1 1/2 HP and 2 HP motors. :)
In the basement, the NEC let me run 8 gauge (was it 6?? It was a long time ago) Romex with nothing more than nailed on brackets. No conduit needed. Ran it to a sub panel on a 60 A breaker, and distributed 10’ runs from there.
Could I feel a difference while cutting wood? No... but it was much easier to install this way, and the 4 or 5 dedicated circuits could be run more easily.
There's a Torus on HI FI Shark today. For wire use JPS Labs Power in wall cable. It's 10 gauge but probably one of the best for noise rejection. When I set up my system originally there was noise that you couldn't hear but it did a number on my high efficiency speakers. Brittle is the best way to describe. Very disappointing to say the least. The Balanced Power Technologies 3.5 Sig + introduced was a huge relief. Later found an Equi=Tech 5KVA wall unit. And balanced power doesn't wear out.
What most of you big gauge gurus fail to realize is that musical transients are asynchronous to the power line frequency. Low E on a bass is 41.2 Hz. The lowest common multiple with 60Hz is 6180 or every 103 line periods for bipolar supplies and every 51.5 for unipolar.
@ 120 BPM there are 30 line cycles per beat. The power supply is topped up on every line peak which almost never coincide with an audio transient.
Clean connections and no computer junk on the audio circuit solve the vast majority of power problems. Note that many wall-warts for 'audio' devices are SMPS and should not be used.
Yes, do run 2 lines. One for analog and one for digital.
I recently did this. I got better focus on my bass.
As mentioned no need for 30A. Run two 20A lines with 10ga solid copper. Run them on separate legs of the panel. Run the romex at least 12" apart...no staples...use cable hangers. If the cross other lines have them cross at 90 degrees. Run them to plastic boxes. Use hospital or audio grade receptacles.
Also, when you set up your components, don't run your AC or signal cables parallel to each other. Have them cross at 90. These little things matter.
@mofojo:
Run a 10/awg BX/MC cable solid core conductors from the breaker panel to a metal receptacle box. The metal sheathing on the BX/MC cable absorbs the (EF)) electric fields emitted by the wires and shunts it to ground. Now from panel to plug is shielded. The upside is low line noise and reduced antenna effect. Downside BX/MC cable is pricier. Hope that helps. Mike.
Isolation transformers bring noise. And eventually they hum. Having surge suppressor devices at your equipment rack brings noise to the system and raises impedance. Use a whole house surge suppressor like a Seimens RS 100 or 140 at the breaker box and a non surge suppressing power conditioner at the equipment rack for the lowest impedance and noise and a higher dump of instantaneous current on demand.
That is Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata’s advice. But a P.I. Audio UberBuss(with a DigiBuss internally to isolate noisy digital components from the analog components) does it better and way less expensively. Please find a way to isolate the Digital from the Analog.
Then buy a Triode Wire Lab’s High Power Digital American instead of a Shunyata Omega XC and save even more. Take the money you saved and buy new amps like the Jeff Rowland Model 125 or speakers. WIN!
vinylshadow71 posts02-04-2021 7:02pmIsolation transformers bring noise. And eventually they hum.
Extreme isolation transformers don't "bring noise", they are specifically designed to reduce noise, and transformer hum is a mechanical noise that doesn't necessarily translate into signal stream noise.
Stay with one line, a 20A. This will avoid ground loops. Just buy a Niagara 1200 and that will give you many receptacles to plug gear into. Also, I’d recommend the AQ Edison receptacle for the one line. So right there you will still have the extra receptacle above or below the Niagara upon plugging it in. Lastly use at least 12/2 (20A/usually yellow) Romex, not 14/2. Do it yourself, it is easy/saves lots of money.
Wow. 30A line will only allow you to draw current past the 20A without damaging wires or blowing fuses or circuit breakers. If you are drawing less than 20A you won't hear the difference with all else being equal.so for Motorola your amp won't "strain" because of lack of power if your amp draws that much power it would blow the fuse or circuit breaker.
I encourage the OP to provide 30 amps to the P’sound amp and a separate feed for everything else. “Too much” would serve you better than not enough. I won’t advise on panel connections. I’m gonna follow someone’s suggestion concerning which leg the fridge and chest freezer are on.
I ran three dedicated 20A circuits for my 5.5 HT. One* circuit feeds the APC H15 that powers and protects all low current devices. The other two** circuits power 6*** amps and 5 powered subs that 4 Furman MP-20s turn one channel at a time. I wish I ran a 4th circuit but I won’t because the current room isn’t it’s final home - another story for another day. *on one leg ** on the other leg *** adding a 7th amp when I mod/bi-amp the surrounds
I haven’t and don’t plan to finish reading this thread’s comments as it seem there are as many opinions as people offering advice. You have my example that was worth the work. My best to whatever you decide. Tony.
for the Parasound hca 3500 I wouldn’t be surprised if dealers aren’t telling customers the unit should be fed from a 120V 30 amp circuit. Over the phone Parasound Tech support maybe saying the unit needs to be fed from a 120V 30 amp circuit. I doubt they would put it in writing. If they did they should specify the receptacle outlet would need to be rated at 30 amps.
Doesn't the parasound hca3500 have dual plugs one for each channel?
The only single phase 30amp receptacles are twist lock. If you insist on using a 30amp line you would have to change the male ends of your power chords to twist lock. Total overkill as a 20amp circuit is more than enough or multiple 20amp circuits. They should be on the same phase with dedicated grounds and hospital grade receptacles.
What's with this on the same phase advice, residential electric service only has one phase it's a split single phase.
In the US, residential electric service is 240VAC, which is achieved using two 120VAC lines that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. When someone suggests keeping equipment "on the same phase," they mean connected back to the service panel to the same 120VAC leg.
Even without considering any electrical pollution from lights, etc, it will help. When I wired the outlet for my system, I used a 30 amp breaker and 10 gauge wirimg. A second amp really made more difference, but a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wiring would have been too little. Besides, remember: a circuit breaker trips with a continuous 75% load, 20 amp = 15 amp trip setting. From its label, add how many watts your amp(s) can draw. This is the wattage used to fire it up. If I turn on all four channels of my amps together (subs and mains) not counting preamps, tuners, CD, etc, the potential 3000 watt draw at 120 volts requires 25 amps, more than the continuous trip amperage of 22.5 amps for a 30 amp breaker. Of course, the regulated power supply helps, but I certainly do not want a 20 breaker that trips at 15 amps, much less a 15 amp breaker that is only good for a continuous 11.25 amps, to be responsible for keeping my ears, and equipment, happy. AND! I only have amps rated at 125 wpc (250 @ 4, 400 @ 2 ohms) x4 for my six ohm speakers.
jea48, so you're essentially talking about wiring the circuit as 20A (breaker, outlet), but upsizing the wire to #10? I'm just trying to learn a bit.Thanks
Two dedicated lines is the way to go. In my case high current tube SET amp benefited from it's own line. Everything else on other circuit with power conditioner, all digital equipment powered by linear power supplies. Switching power supplies inject noise.
You don’t want the AC line mains voltage bouncing around in beat with the music when pushing the amp hard. An amplifier’s power supply like/needs the AC line voltage steady state.
For the umpty-billionth time, PS capacitors charge in sync with the line frequency, NOT THE MUSIC!!! A 15amp circuit with clean, screwed terminals can supply all the current necessary to vaporize any voice coil. The only time the full line current is used continuously is when testing on a load resistor.
If the sound collapses, the PSU is inadequate to supply the required current. Either the caps have high ESR or their capacity is too low.
@OP - If you plan to purchase dinosaur amps, plan to recap them. Otherwise your fat wire install will be for naught. Capacitor technology has advanced considerably in the last three decades.
People may balk at this, but it is my experience. I ran two 20amp dedicated lines from the first breakers in the panel, everything else on a different leg, 10 ga. Solid core, in conduit, straight run, to the outlet box. Also placed a separate grounding rod for these two lines. While the improvements were vast, noise from all the household appliances, etc. Were still present. The solution was to use isolated ground hosp. Grade outlets sharing the grounding rod. Cleanest, strain free, quietest power I have ever experienced. Art Audio High Current Jota mono blocks on one line, original Hydra on the other feeding preamp, digital sources & analog sources. I have shared this on a few boards over the years, but never known anyone to take this suggestion.
You may add additional ground rods to the original circuit however.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what I have done, the two isolated ground outlets have a shared ground rod which is an additional ground point in the system.
The one answer I can't seem to find anywhere is on a sub panel in an out building that the neutral is isolated from the equipment ground with a grounding rod, are you supposed to bond that ground rod to the service entrance ground rod.
Thanks builder3, I am likely in NEC violation! I do wonder the potential hazard of my set up...and wondering if there will be a sonic advantage/disadvantage to correcting my set up by linking the outlets' ground to the incoming service ground rod. I'm also wondering if grounding to the handy box/conduit is a sufficient ground link. Many thanks.
The purpose of a ground rod is to provide a low impedance path to earth in the event a power line is hit by lightning. All the rods in the area provide an earth mesh.
The Earth Safety is to carry no current EXCEPT IN THE EVENT OF AN ELECTRICAL FAILURE! The fault current is returned to the neutral, NOT the ground rod. Adding a ground rod will do nothing to cure ground loop noise because the loop still exists and depending on the installation with a different, possibly higher earth impedance. Theoretically, one ground rod with a 1-inch diameter driven in homogeneous 1,000-ohm per meter (ohm/meter) soil for one meter would yield 765 ohms. Driving it two meters into the soil would give 437 ohms. Going to three meters, however, does not give as great a change (309 ohms). One would get faster ohmic reduction and easier installation by using three rods, each one meter long, giving 230 ohms compared to that of one rod three meters long. This assumes they are spaced “greater than the sum of their lengths apart”.
see https://www.polyphaser.com/News/DownloadFile?downloadGuid=25400030-29fb-4981-862f-c24c4118b556
Adding additional rods can be detrimental depending on rod material, soil moisture and pH. Improperly done, a battery is created which will destroy one rod. Too close and the rod effectiveness is diminished.
My question was about a sub panel on an outbuilding, a grounding rod has to be used here by code as well as the 2 by the service entrance. I know you have to bond the two at the main service, but do you have to bond the one at the sub panel to the 2 at the service entrance?
I just installed a sub panel in my dedicated audio room which is a separate building from my house. I had to isolate the neutral wires in the sub panel and install a grounding rod, should I connect the grounding rod to the grounding rod on the main panel.
Starting with the 2008 National Electric Code, the only acceptable way to wire a subpanel is with a four-wire feed. Two hots, one ground, and one neutral wire. The grounds and neutrals must be isolated.
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