Dedicated power

I have a question which is slightly unrelated to the main topic of this thread (sorry OP). If one has to choose between getting a dedicated line or a good power conditioner, which one provides the biggest bang for the buck. If the answer is 'both', which one should you get first?

I would go with dedicated 20 amp circuits first.

a forceful foot pedal hit on a bass drum.

Exactly what is shown here http://ielogical.com/assets/CblSnkOil/Signal_vs_ACLine.png
The drum transient occurs right in the middle of the negative A/C signal and the wire is supplying ZERO current to the +ve PSU filter bank and will continue to supply zero current until the line voltage rises above the filter bank voltage X the power transformer ratio. At that time a large current spike will charge the caps. However that spike is well below the line capacity.

Examine the "White Rabbit" track. The signal oscillates either side of 0v through the entire A/C line wave cycle. The filter caps are only charged when it is their turn on their half of the A/C cycle.

Rock music has about a 20db dynamic range or 100:1 power ratio. So a 500W amp is putting out a fraction of its total capability. The ONLY time anywhere the line ampacity is required is when driving a load resistor.

 Voltage, length of the wiring X 2 and the gauge of the wire used.

I covered that in Headroom Loss for 1600w on 14ga/120v | Audiogon Discussion Forum

Upping the gauge from 14 to 10 results in a 170mΩ decrease in wire resistance over 54 feet. The voltage ratio is  20 * log ( 0.987 / 0.968 ) =  0.169db relative to the unloaded line voltage!  see  ieLogical CableSnakeOil

It's my contention that improvements heard after a 10ga rewire are largely due to direct clean connections and not the wire gauge. If rewiring for audio, go direct and only use screw terminals on quality outlets.

My media room has a dozen outlets which were daisy chained with push terminal quick connections. This circuit is used for 2x 600w electric heaters. I'd estimate the length at about 80 feet. I had a 5-6v drop from the first outlet to the last when loaded by both heaters. Removing the quick connects, cleaning the wire and using the screw terminals resulted in under a volt drop when loaded.

If one has to choose between getting a dedicated line or a good power conditioner, which one provides the biggest bang for the buck.

First determine if you have a problem. The best answer maybe neither.

It's not just clean connections, I've had lights blink on a 15 amp circuit with powerful bass, but when I plug an electric heater into that same circuit the lights are fine no change. 

If lights are 'blinking' they are on the same circuit. Sockets and lamps should be wired on separate circuits. Likely there are other high current loads as well.

I've been doing this a very long time. Including professional recording studios. 12ga wire and 20A breakers for walls of amplifiers. Main monitors typically 1 x 20A circuit for 4 x 500 watts [250wpc]. Playback on STUN didn't dim the lights [on a separate circuit] or jiggle a peak responding line voltage monitor.

On a 14ga 15A circuit with 10 foot run to the socket, I currently have tri-amped speakers - total 315WPC - plus 2 subs 300W each. Speakers are ≈84dB/w/m and peak levels are +100dB. The REAL cannon in Telarc's 1812 barely jiggle the line voltage when measured with a DSO. Amplifier outputs scale to input levels, i.e. NO compression.

Talked with my friend who is doing the wiring. We are gonna do 220v to a small box very close to where the outlets are going. This should distance the circuit even further from other crap on the lines and only cost about 50 bucks more to do. 
We did determine today there is gonna need to be a bit more drywall rip up than we initially thought. HATE HATE doing drywall! Ohh well crappy patch job and hang a pic over it.  

The lights are wired on a separate circuit, it was a 2800 watt sunfire subwoofer, playing telarc time warp. I've seen lights blink in too many different systems to believe it could just be dirty connections. It has to be voltage drop on the line.

The feeder line from the main service panel to the sub panel is 65' and it's 2awg. That same sunfire sub did the same thing in my friends system and the circuit was only 20' from the main panel.   2800 watts is quite a bit of power.

Sunfire XTEQ:

• Input Power100-120 / 220-240 V~, 50/60Hz, 900W
• Output Power   3,000 Watt

¿Que?

2800W is way overload for a 15A breaker, moderate overload for a 20A.  It's enough to cause a breaker grief, particularly an aged one.

One thought, what are the street input connections like? I've seen some really horrible stuff in the meter and into the box.

I haven't checked street input connections, I had to install a new service about 28 years ago, because the ice on the roof took the mast down. I don't seem to have any problem with my hot tub or air conditioner. The breaker is only 2 years old.

ieales742 posts02-08-2021 11:32am

................It's my contention that improvements heard after a 10ga rewire are largely due to direct clean connections and not the wire gauge. If rewiring for audio, go direct and only use screw terminals on quality outlets.

My media room has a dozen outlets which were daisy chained with push terminal quick connections. This circuit is used for 2x 600w electric heaters. I'd estimate the length at about 80 feet. I had a 5-6v drop from the first outlet to the last when loaded by both heaters. Removing the quick connects, cleaning the wire and using the screw terminals resulted in under a volt drop when loaded.

In my shop (not my music room), I have nothing run through the outlets. They aren't wired in series, each is pig-tailed off the 20A circuit(s) running through the boxes. This would seem to me to be advantageous on an audio circuit, as well. Obviously, if you have a dedicated circuit, it's not an issue.

invalid110 posts

02-08-2021
3:33pm

The lights are wired on a separate circuit, it was a 2800 watt sunfire subwoofer, playing telarc time warp. I’ve seen lights blink in too many different systems to believe it could just be dirty connections. It has to be voltage drop on the line.

Here is a Jon Risch post. It’s in regards to VD on a power cord but it could be used for branch circuit wiring as well.
(Jon Risch is a well respected EE )
https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/13538.html

This from Nelson Pass.
https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/power-supplies-commentary-for-consumers/

Here is a post from Ralph (M) . Again the subject is for power cord VD.
https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/17/174988.html

All copper#2 wire. Thanks for the links jea48, the voltage drop could have been from the captive power cord. 

I don't believe too many manufacturers make a 240 volt sub or amplifier in the us. 

Thinking back, these are some of the problems that caused power problems:

• squirrels nearly chewed through the bare aluminum neutral. Apparently, they love it for sharpening their teeth.
• both a recording studio and a mastering lab had issues from underground transformers that got wet over several years and eventually became unbalanced.
• pole transformer failure severely unbalanced 120v legs.
• this was a toughy: one of the load balancing transformers the DWP switched in at times was defective in combination with some others. I called DWP, but of course It’s all good here. Must be your end. I logged power and voltage for about a month and gave them specific times, loads and voltages. When they compared with their switching logs, they were able to identify the faulty unit. Once replaced, no more issues.
• etc.

From the HCA-3500 owner's manual:
"Power Requirements 110 Vac-120 Vac 1200 watts per channel"

Seems pretty simple to me.

I = P/E
I = amps (the great debate)
P = watts (1200)
E = Volts (120)

After doing the math, the above statement can be re-written:
"Power Requirements 110 Vac-120 Vac 10 amps per channel"

Note that the requirement is not conditional. No "continuous" or "peak" modifier. Just a simple statement. Yet, it's amazing how many people will think, "well, if 20 is what the manufacturer recommends, 30 must be better!"

Parasound puts that in their literature for a reason. That's what the amp needs. That's all. No more.

And I can pretty much guarantee that there is no statement anywhere from Parasound that even hints at running a 30 amp circuit. Because if they did, Parasound then becomes involved in what happens next.

Anyone who runs a 30 amp circuit to a 20 amp duplex is an irresponsible fool and creating a fire hazard. 30 amp duplex plugs don't exist for a reason: to prevent someone from doing something stupid like this. So, after their house burns down because they ran too much power to a circuit that wasn't designed for it, the Fire Marshall is going to go to their insurance company and explain what the cause of the fire was. The insurance company is then going to say to the homeowner, "Son, you're on your own."

So, the bottom line: Do Not run a 30 amp circuit for something that was not designed for it.

Bob carver designed power supplies can be a bit different than most other stuff on the market, so Jea48 you might be onto something with that theory.

ieales"both a recording studio and a mastering lab had issues from underground transformers"
I have never heard of such a thing are these  transformers between substation and end user is that allowed in your country?

We have transformers hanging on poles all over the US.

jea483,554 posts02-09-2021 10:13am

900W / 120Vac = 7.5 amps

So how does the designer of the sub spec, "Output Power 3000 Watt"?

Same way Sears used to claim they had 6 hp shop vacs. Theoretical number a fraction of a second before the device went up in flames. Shameless marketing.

Where all the services are underground, there are vaults with transformers.

In my current location we have small above ground transformers every few houses and a large vault with a larger transformer. It also got rather wet and shorted in our 101 inch rain in 2017

ieales"Where all the services are underground, there are vaults with transformers.In my current location we have small above ground transformers every few houses and a large vault with a larger transformer."

I understand underground electric service but I have never heard of the transformers themselfs actually being installed underground or what some would call "below grade" and that would be for the reason you mention that it would be subject to the results and effect of flooding.

It would seem like the transformers used would have to be somewhat sealed being that they are filled with oil.

jea48"There are at least 5 million of them across the US. They are quite common in large cities in the north. Downtown NYC is full of them. In many cases below the sidewalks in front of buildings. How is water kept out of the vaults? Sump Pumps for one."

Thank you very much for this information which I find "suspect" as a matter of practice but it explains a lot the US has a reputation for very unreliable electric service and having now done some Googling on this purely for curiosity I see that flooding has often caused massive power outages sometimes lasting for weeks!

Very unreliable electric service?
Thank you very much for this information, which I find "suspect". Good grief. Flooding has caused a lot of problems, depending on the severity. The solution, of course, would be to not allow anyone to live near any of the thousands of miles of seacoast, nor near any rivers or streams. I think if we displace 50-100 million citizens living along the Mississippi and Missouri drainages, for a start, we can nip this problem in the bud.

I'm sure they make transformers that can withstand flooding, but will the power companies cough up the money for them?

You may add additional ground rods to the original circuit however.

That is correct.  It's the use of the word "isolated" that worried me.  You may add any number of ground rods, so long as they are bonded to the same ground that is bonded to neutral at the service entrance.

I forgot to mention:

The most common cause of systems sounding harsh when you turn them up is often room acoustics. Sit up close to your speaker and see if it sounds much less harsh.  If it does, it's your room.

Best,

e

Buy a PS Audio P20. This will solve all your problems and needs.

builder3"Very unreliable electric service?Thank you very much for this information, which I find "suspect". Good grief. Flooding has caused a lot of problems, depending on the severity. The solution, of course, would be to not allow anyone to live near any of the thousands of miles of seacoast, nor near any rivers or streams. I think if we displace 50-100 million citizens living along the Mississippi and Missouri drainages, for a start, we can nip this problem in the bud."

You are very welcome and might choose to consider that floods are also an ongoing issue across much of the globe including Europe and Scandinavia and yet power outages lasting for weeks on end as a result of flooding just does not happen what you find acceptable electrical service would be considered of "third world" quality in many parts of the world.

what you find acceptable electrical service would be considered of "third world" quality in many parts of the world

The City of Los Angeles extracts $¼ BILLION annually from DWP. Hence ZERO maintenance. The pole in my yard was installed in 1962. Ditto the phone wiring. Crackles every time it rains. Pac Bell says the problem is inside the house because there is no crackling when they show up in dry, sunny weather.

Sheesh!

clearthink1,179 posts02-10-2021 8:48amYou are very welcome and might choose to consider that floods are also an ongoing issue across much of the globe including Europe and Scandinavia and yet power outages lasting for weeks on end as a result of flooding just does not happen what you find acceptable electrical service would be considered of "third world" quality in many parts of the world.

Well, I did a bit of research before replying. I'd have to say that the big difference is probably that in the U.S., the flooding very often comes hand in hand with some very serious storms. These would be the occasions that people might be without power for extended periods. I couldn't find any record of huge storms in Europe, only the remnants of various hurricanes. I saw some that spoke of 70 mph winds, and 1-2 inches of rain. That would be merely a blustery weekend, here. Most (all?) of the events with extended outages in the U.S. have been the result of horrific storms, hurricanes, or tornadoes with winds in the 130-200mph range, and often rainfall measured in feet.

builder3"I did a bit of research before replying. I’d have to say that the big difference is probably that in the U.S., the flooding very often comes hand in hand with some very serious storms. These would be the occasions that people might be without power for extended periods. I couldn’t find any record of huge storms in Europe"


It is apparent and evident that you are not so good at what you call "research" and you are equally unfamiliar with history and science. It will obviously surprise you to learn that weather is everywhere across the planet and that includes extreme weather the US is not the only place in the world that has extreme weather. If you really thought the US was the only place for floods and other extreme weather you’d think you lead the world on climate change efforts, intitiatives, and programs but instead you come in "dead last" as you say.

Blaming two week power outages on weather is like saying that other American excuse "the dog ate my homework." Other posters here have explained the condition of your electric system and it is obviously not good it is "third world" I could tell you more but you wouldn’t believe me.

The us has the most extreme weather, from tornadoes to blizzards to hurricanes. But I will agree our infastructure is falling apart, while we keep giving billions to other countries.

builder3

I’d have to say that the big difference is probably that in the U.S., the flooding very often comes hand in hand with some very serious storms. These would be the occasions that people might be without power for extended periods ... Most (all?) of the events with extended outages in the U.S. have been the result of horrific storms, hurricanes, or tornadoes with winds in the 130-200mph range, and often rainfall measured in feet.

Nope. I live in an area not especially subject to those conditions and when we lose power it’s not uncommon for the outage to last for two weeks. (To be fair, sometimes it's "only" for two or three days.) The poles and equipment that feed my neighborhood - which has underground service - often date to the mid-40s, according to the crews who repair the work. When repairs are made, the replacement poles and other equipment is to the same spec as the equipment that failed, so it’s sure to fail again. If the electric utility does upgrades in my state, it’s never in my neighborhood. State regulators make promises but can’t show results.

My electric utility also suffers from other performance problems, but that’s a bit OT. Many of my neighbors and I consider our electric service to be of third world quality and these power problems have resulted in deaths more than once. It’s pathetic.

I was talking to some linemen, when a transformer blew on my street, they said it isn't uncommon for the transformers to be run at 200% capacity.

Well finally had the dedicated lines installed. I have to say it sounds denser and cleaner. Better bass definition and whatever little bit of hash in the highs seemed to be diminished. Everything seems tighter and better separated. Obviously this is not a blind test and yes there was/is some bias of wanting to hear an improvement. I have been working out of this room for a year so I listen basically all day long if not on a meeting so I have a pretty good handle on the difference. All I know is it did no harm and I feel like there is a noticeable improvement. I would highly recommend doing this if you don't need to rip a bunch of drywall up for the small investment. A fraction of what some power cords cost.

Update. This is for sure real. Before the dedicated lines there was a hiss with nothing playing. Not bad at all but could hear from maybe 6 inches to a ft away. Now dead silent. Nothing.