Cornwall IV vs. Volti Rival, Razz; Razz v. 1, 2, 3 -- what changed?

Having owned nearly every model in the Klipsch Heritage lineup and today with a pair of LaScala and what has become known as “underground Jubilee” in house I find it hard to accept saying a speaker is horn loaded when the woofer remains a ported design. Include horn loading a 15 inch woofer and you’ve got an actual horn loaded speaker. Otherwise and is noted on the Volti site, the speaker is a hybrid. For true horn loaded speakers look to the Volti Vittora, Klipsch LaScala Jubilee and Klipschorn among numerous other true horn loaded designs. 

I had a pair of Chorus 2 for a minute. It was great speaker with the right kind of music but needed eq for sure! I’ve had CW4 for about 5 months, currently for sale. Not that I didn’t like them just found something that suited me better. The CW4s are waaaaaay better than the older Chorus 2. No contest. They do all the things that the more audiophile stuff does “almost” but are really dynamic and easy to listen to. They just sound right. 

Like someone said above.....

A little bit of mods on the CW4's really helps squeeze extra SQ out of those things.  

Damping the horn, tightening up the enclosure, and then a little work on the crossover does wonders.  It brings that speaker up another level.  

Many good suggestions have been offered here.  I don’t think you will be disappointed with any of the Volti models, and if you can stretch to a Charney Audio Companion speaker that would be my choice.  The new Voxativ Ampeggio is another full range single driver backloaded horn system like the Charney speaker that is also very dynamic and good sounding.  I heard the PAP Trio 15s with the concentric midrange/tweeter option and I think it is one of the very best speaker I’ve heard at the $8,000 level.  I have heard the Quintet 15 with the horn driver option and it was good too.  
While not as vivid sounding as these horn and full-range driver suggestions, someone looking at high efficiency/easy to drive speakers should also hear Audio Note offerings.  They may look like ordinary box speakers, but they are among the most musically enjoyable speakers on the market.  On paper they are not extremely efficient, but I’ve heard them with SET and other lower-powered amps and they are easy to drive (Audio Note makes only low=powered amps).

hilde45

First off, I've never owned any horn speaker. I have listened to them many times at audiophile friends houses, dealers, and at shows. Klipsch fans please don't flame me, just posting my personal experience. That said, I have never heard a Klipsch speaker that I thought to myself "I must go buy this"; they've been really good, but not magical

I have though, heard Volti speakers that made me drool over the thought of owning them. I've heard the Razz many times (in many environments), and always have been really impressed with the sound.....dynamics like I have never heard in any speakers. They also seem to be very forgiving of set up, as long as you follow a few rules.

Recently one of those friends of mine (who has only owned horn loaded speakers), upgraded to the Volti Lucera. To my ear they are some of the best speakers at any price I have heard.

I also will be looking at the Pure Audio Project Trio 15, which has several options for tweeters including a horn.

Seems the OP is targeting ~94-95dB. 

My vote is for the Volti Razz or stretch to the Lucera.  

Other options:

Charney Companion Moderno/Excalibur 104dB 

Tekton ~98-100dB

Daedelus is popular with low powered amps, maybe used to meet budget

Zu Audio

Slight toe in worked best for me with CW IV.

I own the Cornwall 4s.  I damped the tweeters and mid horn.  I did not do the woofers.  Is it worth it to do so?   Also, should I have these toed in or just aimed straight ahead?   I will experiment on my own but I wanted to know if there was a general consensus.  

For over 50 years I have been damping horns, of all speakers using them. They did not have Dynamat back then, but there were materials that we used that did the job, such as clay, mortite etc. Mortite is still an excellent damper of resonance and vibration, is cheap to buy, and very worthwhile. Horn bodies make a sound, especially those made from polycarbonate plastic (whatever), and aluminum/metal. If you have ANY Klipsch (and many others), I can tell you, this is an area of great improvement. Over the years, I have had hundreds of customers following my directions on doing these simple, inexpensive but somewhat time consuming procedures, and some say it is a different speaker altogether, saying the " nasties " have gone away. Woofer frames also benefit from damping. And cabinets...there are endless things one can do. As a Klipsch supporter (specifically the Heritage series) the newest versions are no different than the older ones. I can easily hear these colorations, as my good buddy Mike from NJ. I guided him on these modifications with his mid 80s Lascalas, and he no longer uses an eq to rid himself of some nasties that were there before. YMMV. My best, MrD.

Don't have CW, but have Forte II's. I can tell you the cabinets are very high quality. They look like high quality furniture. Fit in perfectly with the furniture in my room. 

Agree the horns can be a little forward, and fatiguing. There is also a HUGE active Klipsch community. From my research on Klipsch, there are a few things to adjust the speakers.....

1. Dampen the horns. I removed mine, and put Dyanmat on them. This mellowed them out, made them a little warmer, generally smoothed them out. 

2. Crossovers, there are several types, but "steep slope networks" completely change the speakers. I'm waiting on mine to be built.

3. Placement, the consensus is you want the left speaker firing over your right shoulder, and the right firing over your left shoulder.  They should be closer tougher than the distance to you. 

For me, they have a HUGE soundstage, it's a wall of sound! They go LOUD and DEEP. Are very precise to the recording, that is both good and bad. Poor recordings sound poor, but good ones sound great. It's hard to explain, but at higher volumes these speakers have weight. Like the sound has a weight behind it. I LOVE THEM! 

@doyle3433 Thank you for chiming in with your experience -- which is extensive! I find it really helpful. Much appreciated.

I have lived with my pair of Razz now for almost two years. I'm still madly in love with them. One of the biggest gains for me was their listenability. No piercing ear fatigue for me. (why they replaced a pair of Klipsch Heresy IV's).

I got to listen to the new Lucera at the FLA expo in Feb and had to strongly resist hitting up my savings right there on the spot. Lord they were wonderful. 

I've lived with the Klipsch Heresy's, listened to the Forte and Cornwalls some. But IMO it's Volti all day, hands down. 

Also according to Greg's latest newsletter, he's dealing discounts on what he has in stock, including a couple of gently used... wouldn't hurt to give him a call...

@eoj4952
Since I don’t own the speakers, it’s hard to bet everything on the prospect that dynamo tape will be enough. It’s not that I don’t trust other people, but there are so many other possible variables that guesstimating that some tape (or the right amp or DAC) will do it is a challenge for me. (An ordinary challenge, I admit, but I need to feel a bit more inclined toward the speaker initially to see it as manageable.)

@macg19
What about Tannoy? Very interested in Tannoy. Not as easy to get a listen to, but that is possibly a go-to for me.

P.S. It's hard to continue looking at Klipsch given these comments on the Volti site, which I am taking at face value, despite the fact that they are coming from the Volti owner. Others have testified to his no nonsense honesty, so when he says things like this, I really hesitate about Klipsch (at least about the Forte; I don't know if these comments also apply to CWIV): 

"The Klipsch Forte cabinet is made in China of material that is just a step above the highest grade of cardboard.  In this industry, there is a range of quality in cabinet construction from lowest to highest, and when it comes to wooden speaker cabinets, the Klipsch Forte cabinet falls into the lowest end of that range.  I don’t think it is possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet.... When I removed the woofer from the front of one of my Forte cabinets, I didn’t do it, but I’m quite sure that if I had grasped the edge of the woofer opening with both hands at about the 4 o’clock position, with one good twist I could have broken off a good chunk of the front of the cabinet.  By the way, I think I would have a harder time ripping off a piece of those big, thick, cardboard watermelon boxes you see in the grocery stores.  By contrast, I could take a Razz cabinet outside on my driveway, lay it down on its side and drive the front tire of my 2016 Chevy Silverado 2500 pickup truck up onto the side of it without incident."

https://voltiaudio.com/razz-forte-cabinets/
 

Just calm the CORN. IVs the with dynamo tape on the back of the horns and tweeters easy to do. You will love them no more harshness or brightness smooths them right out. There have been posts with references to this 

What about Tannoy? 

I found the CW4 to be a little darker than the Forte 4. Lived with both. The CW4 plays a bit bigger and is more dynamic. The Forte seems a little more detailed and lifelike.

I've not heard the Volti. Probably a little better in all regards especially as you move up and pay the premiums. It's all worth it if you can go for it.

More good thoughts -- appreciated.

I think the setup was fine. Didn't use a SET amp but it was a decent match to what I have.

Volti Lucera -- I had forgotten about that option. Thank you!

I’ve been to the Volti/Border Patrol/Triode Labs Cable room over the years and got to know Greg (Volti), Paul (Triode), and my apologies the gentleman from BP’s name escapes me right now.

Anyways, as a CW IV owner who modified the cabinets and crossovers on each (and blown two pairs of Tweeters two years in a row (pre and post mods). I prefer the Volti’s both on sound & build quality.

But the price well worth it those who can afford & appreciate them MHO.

My Cornwall 4 tube setup:

Primaluna EVO 400 pre and power.

Amperex "Bugle Boy" in the two center gain positions on both amps.

Old metal base GZ34’s in the rectifier positions

Sophia Electric blue bottle EL 34’s in the power amp

Vintage "Western Electric" cloth covered tinned copper wire for speaker.

SR "Purple" Fuses throughout system.

Shunyata Delta NR V2 power cables throughout.

Old Shunyata Hydra 4 conditioners for everything but the power amplifier where the cables go straight to wall.

I grew somewhat weary though of having to wait hours for the Primaluna transformers to saturate sufficiently for real "bloom," but when they did it was quite something.

This system is now sidelined for a SS setup built around Holo May DAC, Holo Kitsune pre and Audion MK3 monoblocs - an equally spectacular setup that is easier to manage.

The Borresen X2 speakers have been getting good reviews and are about the same price.

Borresen X2 Review

FWIW Volti has a new model called Lucera which fits between the Razz and Rival.

Haven't heard Greg's speakers but intimately familiar with Cornwalls and other things Klipsch. 

It's my experience that three things will improve the performance of Klipsch horn speakers, especially the larger offerings.

Sit far enough away for the drivers to integrate. Horns are not near field, or even mid field speakers.

Do NOT toe the speakers enough so that they are firing directly at you. Even the newer speakers like the CW IV sound better when the axis crosses well behind your head.

SET amps bring out the best in Klipsch speakers that are efficient enough to accommodate them. A good 300B amp with stout transformers and power supplies will handle that 15" driver of the Cornwall with no problems.

. Modern klipsch speakers have advanced quite a bit over their predecessors, some of which could run you from the room. Even as good as the new ones are, they aren't for everyone.

I really appreciate the thoughtful and detailed responses and explanations about why and how horns work as they do. Thank you so much for thinking, writing, and posting!

I am also a fan of horn speakers because of the superior dynamics, vivid sound and ability to deliver a soundfield that is large an enveloping.  Most horn systems, even though they are large in size, can fit well into smaller rooms because of their controlled directivity.  The higher efficiency of horn systems allow one to use the very best sounding amplifiers which are, in my opinion, low-powered tube amps.  The combination is magical.

Horns are more efficient not just because of their directivity, but primarily because they allow for more efficient transfer of the force of the movement of the diaphragm to the air.  Air is very light and offers very little resistance so energy cannot easily be transferred (think of how hard it is to throw a feather).  The mechanical resistance of the air is increased by confining it in a space to be compressed by the diaphragm.  Compression drivers utilize a small chamber behind the diaphragm to greatly increase this resistance and improve transfer of the energy (not all "horn" drivers are compression drivers, some have horns to act primarily as a wave guide).  Higher efficiency means lower amount of current running through the crossover and voice coil for any given volume level.  This reduces heating of these components.  Heating results in "thermal compression" where the higher temperature means increased electrical resistance and less current flow, and therefore less speaker movement than if the wire is subject to less heating.

There are other types of high efficiency speakers that share many of the good attributes of horn-based systems.  One can find single driver systems in quarter wave backloaded horn cabinets that are remarkably close to delivering a full spectrum sound and reasonably high volume levels.  I have heard, and like very much systems by Songer Audio, Charney Audio, and Voxativ.  I have also heard impressive systems utilizing fullrange drivers in multi-way systems so that another driver, or two, handles the extreme lows and/or highs.  The Cube Audio Nenuphar Basis is a good example (fullrange for mids and highs, powered woofer for the lows).

As for the choices mentioned my the OP, I like all three choices.  The Rival, in particular sounds good.  The Volti speakers are particularly nice sounding, although the Razz does not quite do integration of the woofer and the upper range quite as well as I would like (still, a minor issue to me given its virtues).  The Cornwall can be a touch rough sounding, but, it, like all three of these speakers, can be made to sound very good when using the right amplifiers (meaning good, low-powered tube amplifiers).  These are not speakers to stint on the quality of the amp.

I can say owning a pair of horns has changed what I feel is important about hifi. The highly dynamic speakers just sound more real, as in less reproduced. I struggle to enjoy my other speakers now. 
 

I think the thing to understand with horns is the difference vs standard speakers is the controlled directivity, not so much the efficiency. Efficiency comes with the controlled directivity as less energy is spilled into the room and directed at the listener. The dispersion differences greatly affects the sound stage and it will be important if you enjoy it. 
 

other types of speakers can achieve similar results in dynamics/controlled directivity without a horn (line source etc). I know for me I will probably never let the JBLs go (lol…I know…I know). I might add a wider dispersion speakers sometime to rotate in and out. 

I’ve heard the Cornwalls a few different times & own the Volti Rivals. I prioritize dynamics that imo only highly sensitive speakers can offer effortlessly making it easier on both the amp & speakers & offer a “live music” sound. 

The Rivals are on another level compared to the Cornwalls in terms of driver & crossover quality, detail, imaging, bass extension & much less fatigue. They should be as they cost 3 times the price! The Razz( which I’ve heard)  gets you a good part of the way there for a lot less $ & size & the brand new Lucera probably splits the difference ( have not heard). 

If you value a more “live” sounding system over really nice “hifi”, then the Rivals & all the Volti’s are worth serious consideration. 

@roxy54 Dynamics are the aspect of audio which are unexplored. Pretty sure they’re not more important if decent tonality is sacrificed. Hoping to hear some Avant Gard horns in town at some point -- the babies, not the super expensive ones. They would be in reach for my wallet.

Comments like the one in this review of the JBL 4367 do give me pause to think about my priorities, however:

The late and sorely missed Art Dudley used Altec Valencias (and later the nearly identical Flamencos) as his reference speakers, but it's no secret that some of his readers, and even fellow contributors, considered his choice quixotic. When I began writing reviews for this magazine, the editor, Jim Austin, emailed to politely ask whether I was planning to evaluate new, perfectionist audio equipment using 55-year-old speakers that you connect to speaker cables with tiny, slotted-head screws.

I wrote back explaining that while a lot of factors went into the complex phenomenon of musical engagement, what mattered most to me about the sound of a hi-fi was dynamics. Anyone who's stood next to a drum kit when someone begins playing it knows how startling live instruments can sound. To me, the ability of a hi-fi to startle is the main source of drama in reproduced sound.

Pretty persuasive prose!

@james633 Thanks for the JBL 4367 reference. Will look for them.

@kennyc I don’t need super efficient speakers; what I’d like is to try speakers that are much more efficient than my current ones, which are around 90/91 but with a great impedance curve

@hilde45 

How efficient do you require for the power you're running?  I contacted Greg who confirmed I could run 2 watt flea amps on my Volti Rival 100dB.  The Cornwall IV is 102dB

Hilde45,

your remarks on the Cornwall match my opinions. I demoed them 3 times at different dealers on McIntosh solid state and their 275 tube amp. I find them a bit harsh and wore my ears out but they were cranked (by choice) in all fairness. I also find the soundstage changed width with frequency. After demoing the Klispch line I bought the JBL 4367. 
 

I have never heard Volti. The JBL 4367 keeps the good part of the Cornwalls but betters everything with better drivers and parts. Look up Google images of the drivers from both speakers… They have a very smooth response that never tires and highs and upper highs are adjustable. They have measurements to back them up too. There is a pair on here for $7500 right now. 

@hilde45 

It really depends on your priorities. If dynamics are high on your list, you’ll learn to live with the imperfections. I did when I had them years ago, and that was much older ones, and my supporting gear wasn’t as good.

I’d suggest trying them in your system if possible. I personally think that they look good too.

@jond Thanks. I appreciate it. Those CW’s were just so huge. Of course: no pain, no gain -- probably goes for the Rivals, too -- but it almost seems like letting a gorilla into your house. At first, it seems fun but soon you can’t get rid of him and no one will step up to help.

I've not heard the Cornwalls but I quite enjoyed the Razz pretty sure it was v1 if not then v2. Having also heard the Rivals I'd call the Razz fun and a touch unrefined but just in comparison to the Rivals which are much more $$.  Not sure if that helps much but good luck with the search Hilde I remain a frustrated horn enthusiast with a too small room. 😉

@james633

Somewhat. The CW’s are very quick and exciting; I kind of expected that but it was really quite evident. I liked the way they sounded for drum kicks and bass but for things like violins and strings and vocals, they were a little bit brash or unfinished. I think they’d be hard to listen to for a long time. A friend suggested that trying it with my DAC and in my room could make a huge difference. I’m not that confident that those things could change what seemed endemic to the drivers of those horns.

I really like the size and the power of the soundstage but it was a bit diffuse. Compared to my Ascend towers (RAAL tweeter) instruments were vaguely placed. Of course, this room is not dialed in as much as mine is, so I realize this may be just an accident of the room.

I know there are Klipsch fans out there who will want to correct me, or let me know that amplifier pairings could be the ticket. I’m open to hearing about that.

My gut tells me that this is too much of a lateral move, the speaker’s ability to check all the boxes (tonality, prat, soundstage, etc.) is a bit too uneven. That’s kind of why I’m investigating the Volti.

All speakers are built to a price point, so perhaps I’m just fooling myself that I can get a luscious and fast horn speaker at just 6.5k. But maybe I missed something. Hard to tell with just one 45 minute audition.

Did you like the Cornwalls? 

You can always contact Greg Roberts at Volti Audio for the changes he made.