Cornwall IV vs. Volti Rival, Razz; Razz v. 1, 2, 3 -- what changed?

I really appreciate the thoughtful and detailed responses and explanations about why and how horns work as they do. Thank you so much for thinking, writing, and posting!

@james633

Somewhat. The CW’s are very quick and exciting; I kind of expected that but it was really quite evident. I liked the way they sounded for drum kicks and bass but for things like violins and strings and vocals, they were a little bit brash or unfinished. I think they’d be hard to listen to for a long time. A friend suggested that trying it with my DAC and in my room could make a huge difference. I’m not that confident that those things could change what seemed endemic to the drivers of those horns.

I really like the size and the power of the soundstage but it was a bit diffuse. Compared to my Ascend towers (RAAL tweeter) instruments were vaguely placed. Of course, this room is not dialed in as much as mine is, so I realize this may be just an accident of the room.

I know there are Klipsch fans out there who will want to correct me, or let me know that amplifier pairings could be the ticket. I’m open to hearing about that.

My gut tells me that this is too much of a lateral move, the speaker’s ability to check all the boxes (tonality, prat, soundstage, etc.) is a bit too uneven. That’s kind of why I’m investigating the Volti.

All speakers are built to a price point, so perhaps I’m just fooling myself that I can get a luscious and fast horn speaker at just 6.5k. But maybe I missed something. Hard to tell with just one 45 minute audition.

@jond Thanks. I appreciate it. Those CW’s were just so huge. Of course: no pain, no gain -- probably goes for the Rivals, too -- but it almost seems like letting a gorilla into your house. At first, it seems fun but soon you can’t get rid of him and no one will step up to help.

@roxy54 Dynamics are the aspect of audio which are unexplored. Pretty sure they’re not more important if decent tonality is sacrificed. Hoping to hear some Avant Gard horns in town at some point -- the babies, not the super expensive ones. They would be in reach for my wallet.

Comments like the one in this review of the JBL 4367 do give me pause to think about my priorities, however:

The late and sorely missed Art Dudley used Altec Valencias (and later the nearly identical Flamencos) as his reference speakers, but it's no secret that some of his readers, and even fellow contributors, considered his choice quixotic. When I began writing reviews for this magazine, the editor, Jim Austin, emailed to politely ask whether I was planning to evaluate new, perfectionist audio equipment using 55-year-old speakers that you connect to speaker cables with tiny, slotted-head screws.

I wrote back explaining that while a lot of factors went into the complex phenomenon of musical engagement, what mattered most to me about the sound of a hi-fi was dynamics. Anyone who's stood next to a drum kit when someone begins playing it knows how startling live instruments can sound. To me, the ability of a hi-fi to startle is the main source of drama in reproduced sound.

Pretty persuasive prose!

@james633 Thanks for the JBL 4367 reference. Will look for them.

@kennyc I don’t need super efficient speakers; what I’d like is to try speakers that are much more efficient than my current ones, which are around 90/91 but with a great impedance curve

More good thoughts -- appreciated.

I think the setup was fine. Didn't use a SET amp but it was a decent match to what I have.

Volti Lucera -- I had forgotten about that option. Thank you!

@eoj4952
Since I don’t own the speakers, it’s hard to bet everything on the prospect that dynamo tape will be enough. It’s not that I don’t trust other people, but there are so many other possible variables that guesstimating that some tape (or the right amp or DAC) will do it is a challenge for me. (An ordinary challenge, I admit, but I need to feel a bit more inclined toward the speaker initially to see it as manageable.)

@macg19
What about Tannoy? Very interested in Tannoy. Not as easy to get a listen to, but that is possibly a go-to for me.

P.S. It's hard to continue looking at Klipsch given these comments on the Volti site, which I am taking at face value, despite the fact that they are coming from the Volti owner. Others have testified to his no nonsense honesty, so when he says things like this, I really hesitate about Klipsch (at least about the Forte; I don't know if these comments also apply to CWIV): 

"The Klipsch Forte cabinet is made in China of material that is just a step above the highest grade of cardboard.  In this industry, there is a range of quality in cabinet construction from lowest to highest, and when it comes to wooden speaker cabinets, the Klipsch Forte cabinet falls into the lowest end of that range.  I don’t think it is possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet.... When I removed the woofer from the front of one of my Forte cabinets, I didn’t do it, but I’m quite sure that if I had grasped the edge of the woofer opening with both hands at about the 4 o’clock position, with one good twist I could have broken off a good chunk of the front of the cabinet.  By the way, I think I would have a harder time ripping off a piece of those big, thick, cardboard watermelon boxes you see in the grocery stores.  By contrast, I could take a Razz cabinet outside on my driveway, lay it down on its side and drive the front tire of my 2016 Chevy Silverado 2500 pickup truck up onto the side of it without incident."

https://voltiaudio.com/razz-forte-cabinets/
 

@doyle3433 Thank you for chiming in with your experience -- which is extensive! I find it really helpful. Much appreciated.

@mrdecibel

Over the years, I have had hundreds of customers following my directions on doing these simple, inexpensive but somewhat time consuming procedures, and some say it is a different speaker altogether, saying the " nasties " have gone away. Woofer frames also benefit from damping. And cabinets...there are endless things one can do.

Who are "your customers" and what is your business? I’ve seen some videos explaining how to do this. I suppose I could drop close to $7k on a speaker so I could take it apart and do time consuming surgery on it...in the many different ways the speaker apparently needs help...

@kennyc
Thanks for the additional options. I’ve heard Tekton and they are too raw for me.

@vthokie83 ​@larryi
There is a Razz used near me that has my attention. But the common response keeps coming, viz., about the Rival and/or the Lucera. I don’t want to go the Razz route and then immediately have the desire to upgrade, so waiting seems a better path right now. Charney is interesting! Probably the reason people are suggesting Tannoy, too? (Single driver path...)

@mofojo You say the CW4’s "just sound right" but you’re getting rid of them...why?

Budget? Budget limit?

The budget range was at least implied by the speakers in the initial post -- CW's are around $7k new and Rivals are $16k. That's pretty clear. Put otherwise, I am not interested in spending $20k on speakers, but I am willing to buy used.

Because I am willing to spend, say $16k as the upper end of used, that means that it’s relevant, to me, to allow discussion to range widely, if that means speakers with MSRP much higher than the MSRP of the Cornwalls or Rivals but with the possibility of a used one for sale. You all know that there are always deals out there, but one cannot position oneself to take advantage of them without some criteria. That opens up a range of options, but clearly it does not imply $50k+ speakers

Room will vary. I’m in a 25x14x 6.5 now and will move to a 26 x 15 x 8 room.
Sound characteristics? I’m interested in the usual ones (which I described here already) but with the quickness of horns.

@tvad No worries. Appreciate your taking an interest in the question! Thank you!

Thanks for the further updates about varia.
I plan on trying Tannoy and, soon, Fyne.
I'm excited about some of the lower power amp possibilities this opens up.

What happened with all those deleted posts? Weird.

It seems pretty confirmed that the CW's are great speakers if they are seriously modded. Thanks for the update about that. Some will see this as a great opportunity -- like buying a house with "good bones" and then making a dream house out of it. Others will see this as a deficiency in a $7k speaker. I suppose it comes down to what you're comparing it to. The value of the Voltis, then, seems to be that they are prêt-à-porter. 

I wonder how much time and parts the Cornwall IV need. They're price at $6,598.00 and Rivals are $8,900.00, a $2300 difference, or about one-third more expensive. 

@ozzy62 

Both 

vthokie83
doyle3433

reported they had.

@tds3371 My mistake -- I was looking at the OPTIONS page, on the Volti site.

Oops. Much more expensive. Go upgrades!!!

Never heard of Seneca. Interesting. A search on HiFi Shark reveal none for sale nor any in the expired sales. None on the used market. 

@james633 Thanks! I'll take a look. $16k is a healthy price tag. These are interesting, and $10k: 

Just to P.S. my recent post with an interesting video from Crowe:

Crowe Speakers Youtube

Don't believe everything said here.The klipsch cabs are not made in China My IVs are 3 years old look and sound amazing.

That is on Volti's website. Are you saying that Mr. Roberts has an inaccurate statement on his website? That would be a serious accusation. But if you do a little research, you'll see that there are many people claiming this, some with proof. So, there's that, and Mr. Roberts seems like he actually knows what he's talking about.

@mrdecibel either you or Volti are correct on this.

YOU: The Klipsch Heritage series cabinets are made here, as are the pro and cinema lines.

or

Volti website: "The Klipsch Forte cabinet is made in China of material that is just a step above the highest grade of cardboard.  In this industry, there is a range of quality in cabinet construction from lowest to highest, and when it comes to wooden speaker cabinets, the Klipsch Forte cabinet falls into the lowest end of that range.  I don’t think it is possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."

@silverfoxvtx1800 

That's a really great quote -- which doesn't address the main issue. While it's great to see all the things Volti is improving over Klipsch, and people can decide for themselves about those differences (they seem significant), the key question is untouched by that quote. The question was raised below about a claim on Volti’s website, viz.,

Volti website: "The Klipsch Forte cabinet is made in China of material that is just a step above the highest grade of cardboard. In this industry, there is a range of quality in cabinet construction from lowest to highest, and when it comes to wooden speaker cabinets, the Klipsch Forte cabinet falls into the lowest end of that range. I don’t think it is possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."

This is a matter of simple fact -- about the quality and provenance of Klipsch cabinets (Good/US vs. Cheap/China). If folks could know the basis of this claim on Volti’s website about this issue that would end that debate, here.

@bolong

The website you linked to says,

"Many Klipsch speakers are made in the USA with global materials, however, in recent years, they’ve moved some manufacturing overseas to countries like China. Their speakers within their Heritage line, along with many of their cinema and reference speakers, are still made in America."

That is a piece of evidence, though it’s not coming from Klipsch. Not bad, though. @badgerdms

I can tell you that I have seen how Volti does things...Whether he’s building them by hand or using CNC machines the birch plywood he uses is as solid as it comes.

That’s very nice to know. I’m interested, however, in the claim on Volti’s website (a) that the Forte cab’s are made in China and (b) are "just a step above the highest grade of cardboard" and [cabinet construction] that "falls into the lowest end of that range" and that the it is not "possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."

Some evidence has been produced here indicating the Volti claim about Klipsch coming from China is false. Some people are testifying to the solidity of their own speakers. We have not yet seen evidence that the Klipsch cabs for the Fortes are made in China, and we have Volti’s testimony that they’re flimsy.

@bodega

@mrdecibel

I’d be interested in solid fact. I am inclined to believe that Volti’s facts are correct, if only because claiming it on a public facing website -- in a post clearly advantaging his own, competing product -- would be a huge negative if it proved false. I also imagine that after upgrading Klipsch for so many years, he knows the provenance of the parts. It would improve the Volti website to link to the proof or cite it, I think. The adjectives describing the cheapness of construction seem a bit questionable. One could communicate their inferiority with a gentler touch. But that’s just my opinion.

@bodega Thanks for pointing out the change. Now it only strongly implies that they’re made it China.

The Klipsch company is coy about revealing where their speakers are made, or perhaps more importantly where parts of their speakers are made. It is possible to say that a speaker is made by craftspeople in Hope, AR, while many of the parts of the speaker, including the cabinet are made elsewhere. It is no secret that Klipsch has parts and in some cases whole speakers made in China. They may not want people to know or to focus on that fact, and I can understand that – fair enough. But here’s a point that I’ll make which is much more important than whether or not they are made in China. When it comes to the low-quality construction of the Forte cabinet, I would submit that it would be better for Klipsch if they came out and stated that it was built in China.  That way they would at least have an excuse for the poor quality.  To say that the cabinet of the Forte, which I think is among the lowest quality speaker cabinets ever made, is made by the craftspeople in the shop in Hope, AR is an insult to those good folks.  If the Klipsch company handed their employees the keys and asked them to build a speaker cabinet, I don’t believe they would choose to build them with the cheap press-board material that is used in the Forte.

This is the tactic that we see in journalism called, "Just asking questions..." (As in, "Is Politician X truly born in the USA? Some say yes, but others say know. Just asking questions.)

Obviously, he could have just removed any of this triggering language related to "China" and just talk about the specific construction of the speakers -- as Danny of GR Research does. Just compare apples with apples and leave the triggering language out of it. If the cabinets are badly made, who cares where they were badly made -- unless you're trying to get some ideological mileage out of sentiments about China. 

@silverfoxvtx1800 Please post notes after you have had time to settle things in and had a chance to go back and forth a few times? Thanks.

@mrdecibel Thanks for the kinds words about the room. I've done a lot to get it there, and have other treatments stored away in case they are needed!

It hardly matters where the Forte 4 cabinets are being made now. The Chinese know how to do veneer laminated MDF, and the cabinets themselves are fairly easy to build. The Chinese have been making MDF panels for years and at the same quality level as the US made stuff.

No, it matters a lot if the details are factored in. In the post on the Volti website (now changed a bit) it not only said they were made in China, but that they were like cardboard and very flimsy. There was a clear connection between country of origin and shoddiness of manufacture in that statement. So whatever your experience or opinion -- undoubtedly correct about what you’re thinking about in particular -- your comment is tangential to what was focused upon here.

Americans make good stuff -- and they make crap.

Chinese make good stuff -- and they make crap.

Those generalizations are to be avoided. But again, the original website post spoke for itself.

people say they are more refined I dont know what that means

I think your listening descriptions show that you DO know what it means.

You said: 

it’s definitely all in the midrange….just a tad not bright but just a little more that I don’t get with the Forte IVs

I just cranked the song Black Day by Monolink a very dynamic song, cracked it way up and was clean and I just let it go…the Fortes didn’t sound good way up there to my ears…..

You're hearing exactly what you're describing. The upper mids and highs are NOT making you cringe and you're NOT getting fatigued. Extra volume is equating to extra fun, not "turn it down." 

That's, at least, a partial definition of "refined," as I understand it.

Good job!

@silverfoxvtx1800 Great to have these impressions. Obviously, you're still in the honeymoon phases, but so interesting to learn. To think you almost didn't keep these!

Be interested to revisit this thread now and again, especially if you keep posting. 

@silverfox I did. I'd like to seem him do a tear-down of a Volti for comparison.

@silverfoxtv1800

WHY did you erase the posts? They were part of a dialogue and now the thread makes far less sense.

Pretty weird.