Coda #8, Pass XA25, or Schiit Tyr to replace PS Audio M700
I recently upgraded my power amp from a Nakamichi PA7Aii to PS Audio M700 monoblocks. I honestly expected to flip the M700 pair quickly because I did not think they would be better than the PA7Aii. The M700s actually provide a wider and more detailed soundstage. I sold the Nak.
I listen (often passively) for several hours each day. I began to identify a 'shrill' on the high end. Since I had upgraded my DAC (DirectStream Mk1) I initially thought that could be it. I rotated three DACs through the system (DS, N130, and Eversolo DMP-A6). All of them had the shrill. I then put in an old NAD 7600 and the shrill went away along with a lot of the detail. Put the M700 back in and used the EQ from the DMP-A6 streamer to limit extreme high end. Ended up with a -1 Q starting at 19,500 Hz that solved the shrill, but also muddied the high end detail. I don't trust the EQ a lot and figure more is being impacted than the targeted range.
This led me to consider upgrading the M700 pair. I have a pair of Acoustat 1+1 speakers with low sensitivity efficiency (81 to 86 depending on who the source is) with a pair of Rythmik F12SE subs and an active crossover at 100 Hz controlled by the SPL Crossover. My budget is around $6K.
Looked at the Pass XA25. Not certain there is enough power there although a Pass representative encouraged my to try it. I was hoping to get two used and use them as mono blocks.
The Schiit Tyr has been on my short list for awhile (prior to buying the M700). The Schiit AI tool actually stated the Tyr was not a good match and suggested other Schiit amps. This seemed strange to me. I sent an email to Schiit seeking clarification, but have not heard back. I may go to there store in LA this week to talk to someone live.
The Coda #8 came up as an option as I was exploring. I looked at other Coda used products, but #8 seems to match up best. (Well, the #16 matched up best, but was more than double my budget). I will go take a look at it later this week. Not a mono block but could work.
I am essentially seeking the last 1-2% of the detail the Acoustats can provide. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
One final note. I am not interested in tube power amps. I don't like the fussiness of tubes and the Acoustats seem to pick up the hum from tubes. I know it shouldn't happen with their sensitivity, but I notice it. It could be my prejudice, but please no tube suggestions.
Suggest you call Coda and talk to Doug Dale. See what he thinks in terms of what product and bias match up with your needs.
As you are probably aware, the Coda 8 can be biased 3 different ways depending upon how much power you actually need in Class B and how large the Class A envelope is. If you do get the Coda 8 and need to have the bias adjusted you could always send it back to Coda.
I have a Coda CSiB, which is essentially a Coda 8 with an integrated line stage driving Thiel CS 2.4 speakers and am very happy with it. I chose the v1 in order to have more power in Class A. The amp grips my speakers like a vice.
As you may also know, Doug Dale and Nelson Pass worked together at Threshold and have similar design philosophies. If anything, the Coda amps are even more high current than the Pass. My CSiB is rated at 130 amperes. I believe the Coda 8 is rated at 150 amperes.
OP, the XA25 is not bridgeable, as an fyi. A pair can be used to horizontally / vertically passive bi amp, or actively bi amp through an electronic crossover. Do you have the 1+1s in a room with low ceiling height. The problem can be the speakers with the room, or just the speakers. Have they been updated / rebuilt since they were new ?...the panels and / or the power supplies. I mean no offense to you. My best, MrD.
Of those options, I would opt for the Coda. I considered the CSiB that Jazzman7 posted about based on not finding a negative thing stated about it. It was a bit out of my budget at the time and the SoCal dealer ghosted me but if you have the chance to try it, I'd jump on it.
I have owned the CODA #8 and now the #16. I love the #16. I own a Sanders Magtech now for my Magnepan LRS+. I am not sure if it is because of the synergy with the LRS+, but I like the Magtech more than the CODA #8. I have not heard the #8 with the LRS+. I like the CODA #16 even more than the Magtech with the LRS+. However, the #16 is 2x more expensive, but not 2x better. The #8 is not bad but I did not love it as much as the Magtech or #16.
Another amp I liked more than the latest #8 v1 is the KRELL DUO 175XD. I had both of them in the house for a while and I would rotate them between my Thiel CS3.7 speaker and my RAAL SR1a headphones (the phones actually drew more current). After a while I gravitated more towards the Duo 175XD. The KRELL is a bit smoother than the #8.
The CODA #16 is a different beast and I love that amp a lot. I saw a post on A’gon that KRELL is releasing some new amps in June 2024 that are the next iteration of what I owned. Those could be great and maybe worth the wait.
If you can up the spend to $7500 to $8500 and live with the idea of a stereo amp rather than monoblocks you can reach a new level of clarity, timbre, staging/imaging, and liquidity with a preowned Burmester 911. I see them on AG around the price I quoted. 180W into 8 ohms. Remember, there are watts and the there are watts. I was a big Krell guy until I switched. Bass improved, dynamics improved as well as all other SQ attributes at less than half the power output.
jazzman7 Doug recommended the 16, but said the 8 would also work. He discouraged me from some of the 15.5 listed for sale.
mrdecibel No offense taken. Your thoughts make total sense. My ceilings are 20 feet high and the is 25 feet long and 16 feet wide. There is also another room immediately behind the speakers with a half wall adjacent to the speakers. Plenty of room for the Acoustats.
I have not had the Acoustats rebuilt, but have considered it. I moved another pair of speakers from the AV system (3D Acoustics - basically a Rogers book shelf clone) into the system and the shrill was still there with the EQ off. Not quite as clear, but detectable.
The Pass representative said there was a way, but to try the XA25 first and if more voltage was needed then to add a second. Not certain how.
yogiboy The person I purchased the M700s and a Benchmark LA4 from was moving to the Van Alstine line. Not certain which model, but probably one of the mono blocks.
yyzsantabarbara I was discouraged against the Sanders Magtech due to high voltage swings. Also, a very small company. The Krell look interesting, but having trouble finding someone locally that sells them.
jsalerno277 The Burmester 911 is out of my budget, but thanks for suggesting. I will go look at it and dream.
Owned the #8 V2 great amp for the money, probably the V2 is what you need for those very insensitive speakers. You must love them truly for you to go to these lengths to keep them!
I went the other way and got rid of 1 set of hard to drive bookshelves and bought Mofi Sourcepoint 10s, driving them with a CODA S5.5, best decision for my tastes and room etc.
@thriftyaudioI also use a Benchmark LA4 (changed to the HPA4 last week). I use it with the CODA #16 and really love the 2 together.
Interesting comment you made about the Magtech. I am finding it superb on the LRS+. However, not as superb on my Yamaha NS5000. The CODA #16 is great on both. If you can swing it the #16 is great and you will not be thinking of another amp to upgrade to in the future.
BTW - do not put a WANTED ad for a #16. A lot of swindlers out there.
kairosman The Acoustat 1+1 are truly unique speakers with the best tone I have ever heard other than from a live performance. That, and they look like the monolith from 2001. Research them a bit. I had a pair of B&W Nautilus for a New York minute and definitely preferred the Acoustats. I have a thing for speakers as scupture... and accurate sound reproduction.
Hi, believe it or not I too have had the PS Audio M700 mono blocs. They were my 2nd venture into audio via desktop (yes, a desktop). 1st amp was a Schiit Vidar. The m700's were powerful but still class D amps. Take a risk, go class A or A-B. I have the Willsenton R8 with upgraded tubes, a kinky Studio EX M1 with upgraded op-amps, Schiit Freya+, Pontus II with upgraded board, and or, RME ADC II, DACS with a denafrips Iris, Bluesound node with upgraded power supply/board & or, Eversolo A6 (playing) and currently listening to monitor audio 50's all on a desktop. Point is, i have not looked back on the M700's with a sad face...
You might want to give the Krell amps an audition. I use them in my electrostatic rig for some of the same reasons you cite. I’ve got the K300i integrated, but for you the XD125 or 175 Duo should work nicely. To my ears the Krells have a tube warmth yet with big solid state authority and control.
sid-hoff-frenchman The XA 30.8 are supposedly very similar to the XA25 but with a significant different build approach. The XA25 is more like First Watt. the 30.8 are on my long list. What did you like about the Tyr pair over the 30.8, besides the cost? Used 30.8 run $4-5k. Can't find used Tyr, so they are $3.2k plus tax so around $3.5k. In the ballpark.
@thriftyaudioyes I am sure you must feel that way about your speakers! Another good amp choice for reasonable money is the Denafrips Apollo which is biased heavily into Class A; it runs hot, and it’s heavy as hell, I think around a 100lbs - but only $4.5K new delivered to your door. Sounds like a classic slightly warm muscular Class A/B amp, lots of headroom and current. But it’s made in China and has only 3 years of warranty, while CODA is manufactured in Sacramento CA and has a 10 year warranty. No experience with Krell so I won’t offer an opinion but the "word" is the company is back making very good amps again.
I owned the M700's and was impressed with them. When I upgraded to Kef Reference 5 speakers and a DCS Bartok streamer/Dac/Pre I naturally wanted to upgrade the amps. I went with the BHK 300's which I am very impressed with and will keep for many years.
They do have a tube input stage but they are quiet in operation. A bit out of your budget new but they are in reach on the used market maybe?
To further what @markprice said, PS Audio has a decent trade-in program for their equipment if you are moving up. Call them and see what they could do for you moving up to BHK's.
I owned 2 +2s and loved them BUT they didn’t float my boat with the interfaces. I picked up a couple their servo tube amps, but back then they weren’t stable. Eventually sold them, but maybe 5 years ago someone came along who refurbishes the amps and are said to be very stable. That said, check out Veri-Fi Audio LLC. They have a pure class A 40 watt stereo amp for $1599. Very popular. Now on back order, but it should be a great match
Before you give up on the M700s consider my experience with my LA4 and M700s which are in my end game system.
I have found the M700s to be very finicky and only perform best if they are getting the very best power. Otherwise they will sound thin/shrill. It is not the amps fault.
1. At first I plugged them into my Furman Elite 15PFi amplifier outlets which have current reserves for audio peaks. They were pushing the Furman past its performance specs and the amps let me know.
2. Next I plugged the amps into a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet, no longer available, with a Signal Cable Magic Power Cord and lived with it for many months even though it was pushing the UO to the limits of its performance. I was very happy the way this sounded not knowing better awaited.
3. When I realized I had an extra Audio Quest IEC 3US Power Cable Adapter, $40, I substituted it for the UO. Everything relaxed and beautiful tonality emerged along with all the sonic describers being enhanced.
Let me describe my setup as you may find something in the "thrifty" department to try:
1. Whole house surge protector > PS Audio wall outlet>
Signal Cable > AQ adapter > SC > M700 > MIT 2 Biwire > Carver AL III+ speakers.
I'm a little worried your symptoms are that of an untreated room. An amp with excellent high frequency extension may sound shrill if you have only reflective surfaces, or your speakers are toed in too much. A number of excellent speakers need a lot less toe-in that audiophiles tend to use, and speakers too close to side walls may also sound far too shrill and bright.
erik_squires I value your posts. I often skip to see your thoughts on various questions here on audiogon.
However, the shrill on occurs with the M700s. It did not happen with the Nakamichi and two different NAD units. I did move the M700s to the TV room (AV room for the aficionados) and run it with the 3D Acoustics and the same shrill was apparent. Totally different room (20'Wx12'Dx10'H). The test was completed as a 2.0.
The M700 did expose me to an improved soundstage and detail versus the Nak and the two NAD I currently have. So, I am looking for a new power amp that will not have the shrill at the high end and will hopefully improve on the soundstage and detail the M700s present.
I’m using the Orchard Audio StarKrimson Stereo Ultra V1 on Acoustat 3 Medallion. Orchard Audio is running an amp tour. Listen a week for free and pay shipping to next person. Sign up on their website.
I also have a PS Audio S300. It isn't as detailed as the Orchard. Haven't hooked it up to the Acoustats.
@thriftyaudioI originally was running a single Schitt Aegir and was happy with it. But I was really curious about the Pass stuff, so I popped for the XA 30.8. There was a lot about the Pass that was great, but when I swapped the Aegir back in I was struck by how well it was holding its own against the 7x more expensive Pass. In the end I preferred the Aegir, all things considered. At one point I had my wife blind listen to the two amps back-to-back. She said "Ok, I can hear why that's the more expensive one." Turns out she was mistaken - it was the Aegir she was saying that about!
Anyway, I returned the Pass and happily sat on the money saved + the knowledge that I wasn't getting any "second rate" sound by any means. Quite the contrary - I now had the direct experience that the Aegir absolutely played with the "big boys" and absolutely held its own. I stuck with Aegir until the Tyrs came out. I jumped on a pair, and they ended up taking the new top spot and replaced the Aegir.
The Schiit gear has a sweeter tonality and richness to my ear. The Tyrs are incisive and powerful without calling attention to themselves. They can swing for the fences when necessary while never losing their ability to sound musical. In a hobby where the running joke is the rabbit hole of never enough, I have no desire to change anything up.
The Aegir is a good amp and one I use for my RAAL SR1a headphones (with the new interface box). There is a slightly mechanical hum to it, but it is faint, and it does not come through the music.
The latest Aegir is supposed to have fixed that hum issue.
BTW - there was someone in the Bay Area trying to sell an KRELL Duo 175XD for a song, he had no box. I was thinking about driving up there to pick it up. I think that is a great amp and owned it before. It is in the CODA #8 price range MSRP.
@yyzsantabarbaraI have been warned off Krell amps by a couple of respected friends who say there are issues with fan failure in the newer units. There is one in Orange County offered for $4700, plus The Music Room is taking offers on new sealed units at $7999, which means they will go below that. There must be a reason they are being offered used at less than half MSRP only four years after introduction. I am comfortable with used, but would prefer to items that hold their value like Pass. There is a used Coda #8 offered at $4200, but that is 2/3 of new price. I can't find any Tyr on the used market. Of course they are only a couple of years out since introduction.
@sid-hoff-frenchmanyou make some great points. The XA30.8 is a close comparison to the XA25. It sells for a bit more, but some seem to like the First Watt DNA for the XA25. That the Tyr little brother won out says a lot. I look forward to seeing them tomorrow.
How loudly do you like to listen and how big is your room? XA25 may very well run out of steam given the sensitivity if your speakers if you like to crank up the volume and want some slam. I have an INT-25 on rotation with Joseph Audio Perspectives at 84 db and things start to fall apart when I get into the 80s db SPL, and this is in my bedroom where I'm like 7-8 ft away. Still a wonderful sounding piece of gear. I used to run an XA25 direct from DAC and think it might be even better. I'm a big fan of Pass Labs amps, but most of them are too heavy and run too hot for me.
Honestly I didn't like the Coda #8 much at all. Sounded artificial and "glassy", for lack of a better term. Plenty of power and control, however. In fact, aside from the tone, I'd be hard pressed to criticize on specific sound characteristics. Quite even handed and detailed with good imaging. It just did not do it for me at all. You never know how good something will be to your ears until you try.
@eugene78thanks. The room is large with 20' foot ceiling, 16' wide, and 30' long with another 15' behind the speakers with a half wall dividing the space. The XA25 be too little of a good thing. I would probably need the XA60.8 to do what I want. Might be able to get them for $8k if I am lucky, but not certain I need them either.
Heard the Coda #8 today. Looked nice. I really wanted to like it. The stage definition and instrument separation were great. The sound seemed techno even on essentially acoustic pieces. It might have been the Legacy Focus SE speakers. Most everything seemed off. The notes seemed to end abruptly without the natural decay I was expecting and anticipating. Everything was accurate (extremely accurate) but the soul of the music was missing. Maybe the Coda #8 would sound better with my speakers, but I would have to buy it, bring it home, and return it if I didn't like it. I will do that for something that impressed me, but not for something that MIGHT.
They sounded great, but the Schiit team has some concern regarding how the Tyr would match with system. They actually believe the Vidar, used as mono blocks, would be a better option. I was concerned the Vidar did not have enough umph.
I brought the Tyr mono blocks home to see how they sound in my system. If for some reason they struggle with the high end Ohm (0.5ohm) challenges then I will return them and give the Vidar a look.
I am now fairly certain the M700s are struggling with the 0.5ohm above 17000Hz. The Nakamichi and the NAD did not struggle with it. I do believe the 40 watt Luxman struggled with the same issue, but it was in a small room played at low to mid levels. I didn't know what I didn't know.
So I get to play with the Tyrs for the next week or two. I hope I love them.
I think we heard the same things from the #8. Techno is a funny and accurate way to describe it. In the context of today, it sounds like AI generated instruments. 😄
FWIW, I have owned both the Pass XA25 (two of them) and the Coda No.8 (V1). In my system the Coda was wholly superior to the XA25, especially in dynamic capability.
However, that said, I ultimately preferred the original Parasound A21 (not Plus which is actually inferior) to both of those amps. The Coda manages a little more detail and refinement than the A21, but the latter manages to drive my mid-efficiency speakers more effortlessly. There is level of dynamic ease and breadth to the A21 that I couldn’t get from the Coda. I did reach out to Doug about having the No.8 boosted to a V2 or V3 for the higher wattage (apparently the V1 outputs the most current of them), but he didn’t think I’d notice a difference unless my speakers were an 8-ohm nominal load. So I sold the Coda and bought an original Parasound A21 for the second time. I’ve been very pleased with the decision, especially when I am powering my Magnepan .7s.
My main speakers are Philharmonic BMR Towers and my front end is the Eversolo DMP-A8 streamer. The Eversolo helps to make up for the lack of treble energy the Parasound otherwise has with less transparent preamps/streamers. I consider myself a picky listener, yet I am very pleased with the synergy of this combo.
P.S. I felt the Pass and Coda also leaned warm, so they too benefit from a very transparent front end.
If decay is what you’re seeking and didn’t feel the Coda you auditioned managed enough decay, you might want to consider the Yamaha M-5000. It’s capable of exceptional decay IME, which I believe is largely attributable to its MOSFET transistors.
The Haflers that are modified by Musical Concepts may be a good option to try. I have an XL-280 with PA-7 boards running the mids and highs on the main system. A DH-200 with PA-4? Boards running mids and highs on a second system. Shrill free. The nails on a chalkboard thing is not something I enjoy….
@thriftyaudioEnjoy the Tyrs! I hope they are as satisfying for you as I have found them in my system. One important thing though - they take a good 1-2 weeks to fully settle in. For the first few days they were bass pussycats. The Aegir was thunderous in comparison bass-wise. Though honestly all the Schitt gear I've bought has gone through a break-in process, and things don't sound great all the time throughout it. But the bass (and all other freqs) did come in fully and wonderfully within a week or two.
Well the Tyrs are in place and so far so great. Out of the box the sound stage expanded slightly (hoping for more), the instrument placing and detail improved nicely. The high end shrill disappeared even at very high volume levels (won't be able to test completely at high volume for a few days). There was a slight dip in bass, but I hardly noticed. All of this is compared to the M700s.
One thing that fooled me initially is the how loud they played. I thought something was wrong because the volume was so much lower than with the M700. The gain on the M700 is 30.5 and only 22 for the Tyr. Once I adjusted for this then the comparison became clear.
I am letting the Tyr run continuously for a few days before getting more detailed. I will also try out the higher end power cords I had to purchase for the M700 (their stock ones made my coffee maker cord look stout). The Tyr folks say don't worry about the cord (The stock Tyr cords are heavy duty and well above most stock cords I have experienced).
I have 15 days with the Tyr, but I believe they will be staying. Just want to put them through the wringer right away.
@thriftyaudioGlad to hear it! They really are crazy good outstanding amps. I think a lot of people ignore them because of the price or because they think of Schitt as some ‘discount-and-therefore-second-rate’ brand, but that is their loss. For power cords I have become a big fan of Ice Age Audio. Don Sachs recommended them to me originally and they really do make a difference. I’ve ended up converting all of my cable, i.e. power cords, enter connect, speaker cable to Ice Age wire. Worth considering if you’re in the market for other options.
Well the Tyrs are in place and so far so great. Out of the box the sound stage expanded slightly (hoping for more), the instrument placing and detail improved nicely. The high end shrill disappeared even at very high volume levels (won't be able to test completely at high volume for a few days). There was a slight dip in bass, but I hardly noticed. All of this is compared to the M700s.
One thing that fooled me initially is the how loud they played. I thought something was wrong because the volume was so much lower than with the M700. The gain on the M700 is 30.5 and only 22 for the Tyr. Once I adjusted for this then the comparison became clear.
I am letting the Tyr run continuously for a few days before getting more detailed. I will also try out the higher end power cords I had to purchase for the M700 (their stock ones made my coffee maker cord look stout). The Tyr folks say don't worry about the cord (The stock Tyr cords are heavy duty and well above most stock cords I have experienced).
I have 15 days with the Tyr, but I believe they will be staying. Just want to put them through the wringer right away.
@thriftyaudio, Now that you've learned your lesson, try and stay away from these Class D emperors with no clothes. Others in that list would be even some Class H crap with "shrill" SMPS, etc. If you don't see the big ol' transformer inside a power amp, run away.
Your TYRs would benefit a lot more from a power conditioner with transient current support, i.e. conditioners that hold a reservoir of current and supply it when your slamming music demands it (in addition to all the filters/clean up, surge protection, ovp, etc safety that it provides). Hence, put your money into such a conditioner, instead of expensive power cables..Plugging amps straight into the wall doesn't give you such things. The wall will also kill all your expensive things when surges and other power anomalies hit your house.
The power cable just needs to be triple shielded pretty good (or other forms of noise rejection deployed) so it doesn't leech any noise into your gear after it comes through the conditioner. So, look for something aftermarket better than the stock cord, but, don't throw all your money at it.
Here are some power conditioners at a few different price points, based on your wallet's capability.
Any speaker that dips down to 0.5 ohms is a problematic speaker that needs to be sent back to its daddy. In the future, don't accept such speakers as some kind of competent design from any Speaker Daddy, send him back to the drawing board. I'll spare the choice words for different Speaker Daddies who release such speaker designs. Speakers should not be dipping anywhere under 3 ohms (that's the minimum you should tolerate).
Thanks for the words regarding power conditioners. I have a great one, but may need to add a second. Still need to confirm draw at peak volume.
Regarding low ohm speakers. I have owned these speakers for 30 plus years (3rd owner). If you have never listened to true electrostatic speakers (not with a tweeter ribbon, or the abomination ones with a built in 15" driver) then you are truly missing out. The really good electrostatic speakers that I have had the opportunity to listen to have all been hard to drive. I suspect it is because of the variable ohm draw. Some speakers are just worth the extra effort to support their fantastic tone, speed, and presentation. The Tyr seem to be able to do it. I am certain the more powerful Pass Amps would do the same. The Nakamichi (Pass Stasis design) had no issue with the ohm draw. Definitely need to avoid class D with these speakers.
@deep_333@sid-hoff-frenchman@erik_squiresThe Shrill went, but so did the Tyr. Blew a fuse at 82 db from three meters away on day two. The Tyr were very easy to listen to with decent instrument separation and a better stage than the M700.
Replaced the fuse and listened at lower levels for a few days. Reached out the Schiit Audio six times by email without a response. Spoke with their guy at the retail location north of LA and asked him to have someone call or email me. He said he would pass my information along, but I have not received a response. I wanted to find out if a different pair of amps from Schiit would do what I want. Since they won't respond to my requests I can only do one thing. The Tyr are being returned within the fifteen day return window and I am moving on.
Just purchased a used Pass Labs XA25. I have seen multiple reviews where it is suppose to be stable down to 0.5 Ohm. I am concerned if it can fill my room. If not, then I will need to flip it for something else. Won't know till next weekend.
I really hope the XA25 works. If not, then I may have to up my budget.
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