Coda #8, Pass XA25, or Schiit Tyr to replace PS Audio M700

jazzman7 Doug recommended the 16, but said the 8 would also work.  He discouraged me from some of the 15.5 listed for sale.

mrdecibel No offense taken.  Your thoughts make total sense.  My ceilings are 20 feet high and the is 25 feet long and 16 feet wide.  There is also another room immediately behind the speakers with a half wall adjacent to the speakers.  Plenty of room for the Acoustats.

I have not had the Acoustats rebuilt, but have considered it.  I moved another pair of speakers from the AV system (3D Acoustics - basically a Rogers book shelf clone) into the system and the shrill was still there with the EQ off.  Not quite as clear, but detectable.

The Pass representative said there was a way, but to try the XA25 first and if more voltage was needed then to add a second.  Not certain how. 

yogiboy The person I purchased the M700s and a Benchmark LA4 from was moving to the Van Alstine line.  Not certain which model, but probably one of the mono blocks.

yyzsantabarbara I was discouraged against the Sanders Magtech due to high voltage swings.  Also, a very small company.  The Krell look interesting, but having trouble finding someone locally that sells them.

jsalerno277 The Burmester 911 is out of my budget, but thanks for suggesting.  I will go look at it and dream.

kairosman The Acoustat 1+1 are truly unique speakers with the best tone I have ever heard other than from a live performance.  That, and they look like the monolith from 2001.  Research them a bit.  I had a pair of B&W Nautilus for a New York minute and definitely preferred the Acoustats.  I have a thing for speakers as scupture... and accurate sound reproduction.

sid-hoff-frenchman The XA 30.8 are supposedly very similar to the XA25 but with a significant different build approach.  The XA25 is more like First Watt.  the 30.8 are on my long list.  What did you like about the Tyr pair over the 30.8, besides the cost?  Used 30.8 run $4-5k.  Can't find used Tyr, so they are $3.2k plus tax so around $3.5k.  In the ballpark.

audiotroy thanks for the offer.  I am visiting a Coda dealer tomorrow in LA, as well as the Schiit dealer.

erik_squires I value your posts.  I often skip to see your thoughts on various questions here on audiogon.

However, the shrill on occurs with the M700s.  It did not happen with the Nakamichi and two different NAD units.  I did move the M700s to the TV room (AV room for the aficionados) and run it with the 3D Acoustics and the same shrill was apparent.  Totally different room (20'Wx12'Dx10'H).  The test was completed as a 2.0.  

The M700 did expose me to an improved soundstage and detail versus the Nak and the two NAD I currently have.  So, I am looking for a new power amp that will not have the shrill at the high end and will hopefully improve on the soundstage and detail the M700s present.

@yyzsantabarbara I have been warned off Krell amps by a couple of respected friends who say there are issues with fan failure in the newer units.  There is one in Orange County offered for $4700, plus The Music Room is taking offers on new sealed units at $7999, which means they will go below that.  There must be a reason they are being offered used at less than half MSRP only four years after introduction.  I am comfortable with used, but would prefer to items that hold their value like Pass.  There is a used Coda #8 offered at $4200, but that is 2/3 of new price.  I can't find any Tyr on the used market.  Of course they are only a couple of years out since introduction.

@sid-hoff-frenchman you make some great points.  The XA30.8 is a close comparison to the XA25.  It sells for a bit more, but some seem to like the First Watt DNA for the XA25.  That the Tyr little brother won out says a lot.  I look forward to seeing them tomorrow.

@deep_333 I take it you like Schiit!

They sounded great, but the Schiit team has some concern regarding how the Tyr would match with system.  They actually believe the Vidar, used as mono blocks, would be a better option.  I was concerned the Vidar did not have enough umph. 

I brought the Tyr mono blocks home to see how they sound in my system.  If for some reason they struggle with the high end Ohm (0.5ohm) challenges then I will return them and give the Vidar a look.

I am now fairly certain the M700s are struggling with the 0.5ohm above 17000Hz.  The Nakamichi and the NAD did not struggle with it.  I do believe the 40 watt Luxman struggled with the same issue, but it was in a small room played at low to mid levels.  I didn't know what I didn't know.

So I get to play with the Tyrs for the next week or two.  I hope I love them.

@eugene78 thanks.  The room is large with 20' foot ceiling, 16' wide, and 30' long with another 15' behind the speakers with a half wall dividing the space.  The XA25 be too little of a good thing.  I would probably need the XA60.8 to do what I want.  Might be able to get them for $8k if I am lucky, but not certain I need them either.

Heard the Coda #8 today.  Looked nice.  I really wanted to like it.  The stage definition and instrument separation were great.  The sound seemed techno even on essentially acoustic pieces.  It might have been the Legacy Focus SE speakers.  Most everything seemed off.  The notes seemed to end abruptly without the natural decay I was expecting and anticipating.  Everything was accurate (extremely accurate) but the soul of the music was missing.  Maybe the Coda #8 would sound better with my speakers, but I would have to buy it, bring it home, and return it if I didn't like it.  I will do that for something that impressed me, but not for something that MIGHT.

@sid-hoff-frenchman THE SHRILL IS GONE

Well the Tyrs are in place and so far so great.  Out of the box the sound stage expanded slightly (hoping for more), the instrument placing and detail improved nicely.  The high end shrill disappeared even at very high volume levels (won't be able to test completely at high volume for a few days).  There was a slight dip in bass, but I hardly noticed.  All of this is compared to the M700s. 

One thing that fooled me initially is the how loud they played.  I thought something was wrong because the volume was so much lower than with the M700.  The gain on the M700 is 30.5 and only 22 for the Tyr.  Once I adjusted for this then the comparison became clear.

I am letting the Tyr run continuously for a few days before getting more detailed.  I will also try out the higher end power cords I had to purchase for the M700 (their stock ones made my coffee maker cord look stout).  The Tyr folks say don't worry about the cord (The stock Tyr cords are heavy duty and well above most stock cords I have experienced).  

I have 15 days with the Tyr, but I believe they will be staying.  Just want to put them through the wringer right away.

@deep_333

Thanks for the words regarding power conditioners. I have a great one, but may need to add a second. Still need to confirm draw at peak volume.

Regarding low ohm speakers. I have owned these speakers for 30 plus years (3rd owner). If you have never listened to true electrostatic speakers (not with a tweeter ribbon, or the abomination ones with a built in 15" driver) then you are truly missing out. The really good electrostatic speakers that I have had the opportunity to listen to have all been hard to drive. I suspect it is because of the variable ohm draw. Some speakers are just worth the extra effort to support their fantastic tone, speed, and presentation. The Tyr seem to be able to do it. I am certain the more powerful Pass Amps would do the same. The Nakamichi (Pass Stasis design) had no issue with the ohm draw. Definitely need to avoid class D with these speakers.

THANKS!

@deep_333 @sid-hoff-frenchman @erik_squires The Shrill went, but so did the Tyr.  Blew a fuse at 82 db from three meters away on day two.  The Tyr were very easy to listen to with decent instrument separation and a better stage than the M700.  

Replaced the fuse and listened at lower levels for a few days.  Reached out the Schiit Audio six times by email without a response.  Spoke with their guy at the retail location north of LA and asked him to have someone call or email me.  He said he would pass my information along, but I have not received a response.  I wanted to find out if a different pair of amps from Schiit would do what I want.  Since they won't respond to my requests I can only do one thing.  The Tyr are being returned within the fifteen day return window and I am moving on.

Just purchased a used Pass Labs XA25.  I have seen multiple reviews where it is suppose to be stable down to 0.5 Ohm.  I am concerned if it can fill my room.  If not, then I will need to flip it for something else.  Won't know till next weekend.

I really hope the XA25 works.  If not, then I may have to up my budget.

@sid-hoff-frenchman I think the fuse was due to the 0.5 Ohm issue at 17000 Hz playing at over 80db measured from three meters away.  The Schiit AI said the Tyr were not at match and the Aegir2 or Vidar could be better matches.  Without a response from Schiit I won't give them another chance.  

At least Nelson Pass has responded to every email I have ever sent to Pass Labs and the only product I had at the time was a licensed Stasis amp from Nakamichi.  I will put my trust in the Pass products.  He believes the XA25 will work well with the Acoustats and the Rythmiks.

If there is an issue, I believe Pass Labs will help me work through it.

Received the XA25 this afternoon and connected it right away.  It is a used unit and I am the second owner.  OMG, so far this is amazing.  The bass control is so far beyond anything I have ever experienced with the Luxman 1040, NAD 7600, PS Audio M700, Nakamichi PA 7Aii, and Schiit Tyr.  I actually had to adjust the Rythmik F12SE subs to a lower crossover (from 100 to 80 Hz) and lower the gain on the subs.  The soundstage is beyond what I was hoping for and the separation of instruments is amazing.  Aaron Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man made me feel like I was in the 1st or second row center seat.  I know it is just a few hours, but wow!  This is better than anything I have ever listened too in any audio store.  

I will let the newness sink in and provide follow up later.  I also need to confirm the spectral analysis in correct.  The bass may still be a bit rich.  Time to play.

Wow, am I amazed at what a difference the Pass Labs XA-25 makes compared to the Schiit Tyr, PS Audio M700, and others.  The soundstage is more of a wrap around rather than left to right or top to bottom.  The featured instruments (or voices) are distinct with depth on the stage.  

The only drawback I have is the max output with my inefficient, but amazing Acoustat 1+1 speakers, is 89 db measured at 3 meters (9-10 ft).  I use this measure since that is the prime listening location, although most of my critical listening is off to one side by three feet.  When I scale back the PS Audio Direct Stream Mk. 1 to 92, rather than 100, the peak is 86 db, but the sound is purer.  This is good for 99% of my listening.  Just can't crank it for the one or two parties of the year (then only for 30-60 minutes).  I can live with it.

The sweet spot is enlarged with this amp due to removing the speaker toe-in previously utilized.  I found the soundstage was improved without the toe-in.  This is a first.  I also lowered the sub active crossover to 80 db.  The XA-25 really bumped up the bass in the Acoustats.  The final adjustment was a -24db to the high and a -12 db to the subs.  A small but impactful difference.  The SPL Crossover really helped.  I am certain a JL CR-1 could provide similar results.

The XA-25 does run warm.  I have elevated it two inches and provide 6+" above and on all sides.  I turn it off over night, or when I am out of the house.

I thought I needed dual monoblocks for this type of soundstage.  It makes me wonder what this amp would do as dual monoblocks?  I believe I have my power amp for the next several years.  Thanks for all your thoughts and comments.

@pryso I agree with you regarding my hearing (old) and amount of music over 17000Hz.  The data shows a draw of 0.5 Ohm dip at 17000Hz for my speakers and two different amps have had issues when the playback included sections above 17000 Hz.  The M700 put out a slight shrill (audio clipping) that annoyed me.  I believe the shrill started below the 17000 mark.  It could have initiated at 15500 Hz.  The Schiit Tyr actually blew a fuze (one side only) in the same music passage.  Fortunately these issues have led me to the XA-25 which is by far the best sounding amplifier I have ever owned.  I don't have to worry about it now.