I am certainly biased by my lifetime final amp being a Class D. But I know that after 30+ years of development, Class D seems to be on a high plain. I know there are now many, many companies focusing on Class D and, maybe, a good handful already as good as it gets. My Class D amp is as smooth and beautifully musical as a great tube amp and as punchy and detailed as a great SS amp. I am satisfied and done with my search. A class D amp has effectively taken me off the amp merry-go-round. It’s about time after 50 years. And, for me, this Class D is a milestone. Will all other classes of amps fade away?
@nonoise Not going to happen buddy. Guarantee your little pond is so polluted you are the only lamprey that could survive though you are more eel like. Juneteenth funny. How did you know I am a Black American? FYI my son was killed on Juneteenth 2 years ago in his R&P (police car you know the guys you hate) He was hit by an intoxicated driver ( high on meth). Enjoy your evening I am going flying in our C210 need some tudes in my meter.
I’m a class A guy. Nothing against class D. I’m glad designers have figured out the shortfalls. I think that will be good for the hobby in general. The more flavors,the better. I also don’t think you will see class A,or A/B fade away to extinction. I’m guessing there is going to be enough enthusiasts like me to keep class A,(and A/B) afloat.
The questions the OP asked was will all other amps fade away, no I don’t think so, is class D poised to take over, if having close to 90% of the amplifier market is considered taking over then yes it already has. It’s not what your preferences are everyone’s taste varies even from day to day. Class D amps are everywhere most likely everyone on this forum has a couple of them. I know I have at least a dozen.
And your is of the small pond you are a big fish in.
That thankfully, your countenance will never reflect in. You'd scare all the fish away. Looks like earlflynn is gonna have a relapse and we're gonna see a redux of his Juneteenth/Father's Day meltdown. Get your popcorn and have the kids leave the room. 👍
@mapman , what you describe is pretty much what I've read about the Technics. Sound with no unnecessary flavoring. Only one reviewer felt that it sounded a bit cooler when running coax from the SACD companion piece. He went onto say that it was like listening to someone who perfected their playing but sounding a bit robotic. All of the reviewers loved playing their turntables through it, but I just use CDs, so there's that.
@tvad , thanks. But earlflynn is not gonna change anytime soon.
I babysat a friends class D while he was out of country because he didn't want to leave it off. So naturally I listened to it for a while... Well, I wasn't impressed, I left it on as he had requested. I went back to my class A's for listening to music. Class D will not takeover so long as there are people to service class A and A/B's WHEN required. My class A and A/B's have been quite reliable. Three have not been serviced in 42 years. And yes I've checked the electrolytic caps. Actually, some caps are +10-20% over the specified values. I have replace a few caps that have been exposed to excess heat, with 105C caps, no more failures. But NOTHING in the 3 that have not been serviced. I'm not what you would call moderate with my amplifiers either. Only time will tell...
When I first heard my first Class D amp on my system it was a revelatory moment. Perhaps the biggest single change in sound ever. The sound changed completely leaving me totally disoriented at first. Totally different. Maybe that’s why some can’t fathom it? Where did the bass go? The imaging and soundstage? Then I tuned in. It’s more organic and articulate and encompassing than ever. Had to open my ears. Whoa! Clean crisp detailed and holographic. Vocals clear and easily understood but no artificial “warmth”. Just smooth and clean. No fatigue lake many SS amps. Like a great restraint had been lifted and now the music was living and breathing unconstrained. You know the way music is supposed to sound. You turn up the volume and it just comes to life. You don’t even realize the actual SPL you are hearing. Like a good tube amp. Except none of that tube bloat and artificial flavoring. Efficiency is a good thing in amps just as it often is in speakers. The amp can do more. That’s it in a nutshell. Class D and Ohm Walsh speakers = game over.
I am off the merry-go-round for my entire current system. Woodsong Garrard 301 TT, Triplanar arm, Lyra Atlas SL cart, Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp, AGD Audion amps, Tetra 606 speakers, Silversmith Fidelium speaker cables, Shunyata Triton/Typhon power, SRA Ohio Class platforms, Polycrystal rack. Only with the Class D AGDs, there is no longer any such thing as a bad LP. Hearing the “essence” of the music makes even very old, previously poor, recording eminently listenable. It’s a new world…
@nonoise that is just my opinion. BTW you did not answer the question. Have your heard it in your system, you know that Technics Integrated you are ranting about.
"Since two weeks I own a Boulder 1160 Amp. It replaced a pair of Nuprime Reference 20. The Nuprimes were heavily modified. Duelund silver Bypass Caps, Neotech UP OCC silver internal wiring, pure silver power wiring, WBT nextgen silver binding posts and rca, synergistic orange fuses... I also heard the new Nuprime Evos in my system. Nuprime are great amps but - the Boulder destroys them. It is so much more revealing, has tons more resolution, is as musical but less coloring, has better Control. The Boulder is my last amp. Main negative point is that it produces a lot of heat but I have to live with that."
I don’t see the relevance here. You have a discontinued modded $7600 amp and you are comparing to a brand new $27,000 amp. I would hope the more expensive amp is better. What if you had done the same mods to the $8000 Nuprime Reference? I bet it would be better but still not in the league with the Boulder. Nuprime, I believe, uses two ferrite core inductors in series with the output signal. One is bad enough....but two? I asked Nuprime a couple of years ago if they were working on a GaN based amp and they said they were and that they were ahead of the curve......well, not a peep from them since. Meanwhile, you have a ton of GaN based amps due to arrive any minute, including the $20K 500 watt mono blocks from Mytek.....(suppose to be shipping in July). Now that would be a good A/B with the Boulder. What if Boulder took its super input stages and combined it with a GaN based class D output stage. Then their amps would be far cheaper (way less heavy) and I bet would still sound just as good. Of course, they are not going to do this because it would piss off all the old customers who paid more for back breaking boxes (but someone else will). Class D is more complicated than class A/B so EVERYTHING has to be done right. You cannot just throw a bunch of cheap op amp inside and think you have something good.
The class D revolution is just starting.....within a few years those 100lb class A/B amps will all be boat anchors....he he.
I really doubt class D will take over…..maybe for you, but their not everyone’s cup of tea. I’ve just recently gotten into vintage tubes. What would this hobby be without all these wonderful choices and approaches to explore.
The only truly execrable amp I've ever bought was a Class D from China, for the subs in my home theatre. Thank goodness I put it on the bench first.
Same week I bought an old Bryston for the purpose - musical, powerful, bullet-proof - should have started there, with a proven technology and a proven brand.
Hello, I know their is a place for class D in the world. Their are also really great class D amps like the Rouge Dragon which is a hybrid tube/SS amp. At 300 watts it can power anything. NAD has their Master Series but most don’t know the NAD 298 has the same types of amps as the NAD M33 or M27. The 298 has 185 watts but most people do not know you can bridge them for 600 watts. At $2k per amp that’s great value for money. What I feel is more important is the preamp. That needs to be class A all day long. Put a class A preamp like an Ayre KX-5 on your class D amp and you will wet yourself after you listen to that. Of course if you put a class A/B amp like the Ayre VX-5 you will still wet yourself but you won’t be able to wipe the smile off your face. I am in the Chicagoland area so back in the day your Ayre dealer was Audio Consultants. The new Ayre dealer in the Chicagoland area is: https://holmaudio.com/ The great thing is you can experiment at the store or in your home to see what is right for you. The one thing I find interesting is Hegel is using Class A/B even though they are across the pond. They did add auto shut-off to their latest components per euro guidelines but they are still doing class A/B on the amps. 🤔 Please everyone help the cause and buy a class A of A/B amp so they don’t go away. Just kidding. Maybe not!
@earlflynn, Go back in this very short thread and show where I've been ranting about Class D and the Technics Su-G700. Asking about something is not ranting, and that sentence of mine that you quoted shows desperation. Something a kid would do.
It's looking more and more apparent that your avatar is a selfie.
Class A amps are appealing, less heat, lots of watts, good specs. Will they drive difficult loads? We buy speakers that require the current and then see the price of an A or AB. I'll keep my XA25 and efficient speakers. House not heated up and electric bill is virtually the same.
Class D has already taken over. There are more class D amps sold than all the rest combined by far and their market share is growing while the rest is shrinking. I'm sure boutique brands will be available to those that want them.
Yes and more Corollas are sold by Toyota than Supra’s .
Since two weeks I own a Boulder 1160 Amp. It replaced a pair of Nuprime Reference 20. The Nuprimes were heavily modified. Duelund silver Bypass Caps, Neotech UP OCC silver internal wiring, pure silver power wiring, WBT nextgen silver binding posts and rca, synergistic orange fuses... I also heard the new Nuprime Evos in my system. Nuprime are great amps but - the Boulder destroys them. It is so much more revealing, has tons more resolution, is as musical but less coloring, has better Control. The Boulder is my last amp. Main negative point is that it produces a lot of heat but I have to live with that.
Class D has already taken over. There are more class D amps sold than all the rest combined by far and their market share is growing while the rest is shrinking. I'm sure boutique brands will be available to those that want them.
How many who've commented negatively on Class D have heard the Technics SU-G700 in their system?
Have you? @nonoise .
The way you are ranting about the Technics SU-G700 you are sounding a lot like a guy that many belittle for his passion for a specific brand in this forum.
I especially enjoyed this paragraph, both for pointing out a psychological cause of instant resistance to Class D, as well as the variety of stakes in the way of trying something new.
And I don't hear you arguing against a variety of sounds -- just the exhortation to try new things before drawing conclusions.
This is the key sentence for me, and I'll quote the context below.
The only way I have found to re-anchor is through new experiences; technical and anecdotal evidence often is not enough. Without a new experience, how does one find the impetus to shift their perception fundamentally?"
"Anchoring can be a problem for audiophiles. Case in point: despite class D amplifiers being invented in the 1950s and having undergone extensive improvement by audiophile interests, such as ICEpower, for more than 20 years, it is still seen by many as a studio technology, designed to cut corners and save space and weight, a cheaper alternative, harsh and “digital” sounding, and not ready for prime time. It’s time you weighed anchor, because you are dragging. The term “anchors aweigh” means the anchors are cleared and the ship is ready for sailing. As of January 2021, these caveats are no longer applicable, at least to certain class D amps.
I attempt to actively resist anchoring to old perceptions about audio systems, as I do not find it to be advantageous, at least not in terms of pursuing the best sound. There are influencers, such as industry members with vested interests, who do not want the paradigm to change, as it could be damaging to their business. There are audiophiles who do not want the paradigm to change because it would adversely affect the resale value of their amplifier. There are some who anchored to an experience of hearing a class D amp from five or more years ago. The only way I have found to re-anchor is through new experiences; technical and anecdotal evidence often is not enough. Without a new experience, how does one find the impetus to shift their perception fundamentally?"
My class A sugden A21se @ only 30 watts into 8 ohms/ 40 into 4 ohms sounds fantastic to my ears....simply pure, warm, effortless, detailed, full bodied, and natural sound. It has a nice wallop when needed...class D sounds much too dry to my ears...class A has a nice wet sound which I prefer. Sugden solid state class A, still going strong since 1967.
It has been said many many times. The Class of the amplifier is just one of the aspects of its design. Things like power supplies, quality of components, EMC measures, layout of the board, internal structure, internal cabling, etc all matter.
I have been using Class D amplifiers from the early days when some of them he emitted too much energy in the tweeters and could blow them up. The latest Hypex/Purifi/Icepower modules have improved tremendously but that is not to say that you can make a blanket statement that Class D is better than others.
I prefer the mighty 30w per channel of my pure Class-A, that might sound comical but 30w in class a packs a punch and a divine sound that is hard to better.
Class D is to “ sterile”. He is very to the point ,but without “feelings”. There’s no emotion in ( music) class D : for me: Class A tube: I have a VAC 300.1 : amazing !Also my favorites: Ear Yoshino , DarTzeel ; Class D is “to” pure…that’s my opinion. Music is an emotion , “empathizing “with the music… I cannot find it in Class D.
Class D may become the dominant topology in the future, but as long as there are audiophiles, Class A, Class AB and tube gear will thrive. It's not even nostalgia. It's the sound.
I just picked up a pair of pure class A monoblocks and a class a preamp for my home theater. I also use a class a tube amp and tube dac for my headphones. Never have I even considered using class d for anything high-end, it just doesn't hold a candle in my opinion.
Modern Class D amps like those from Hypex or ICEpower (used in many high end brands) are simply excellent performers, musical ruler flat frequency response, SN numbers that other amps can only dream of achieving and they are respectful of power use and efficiency.
Can you hear any difference? Maybe, some people prefer an amp that is not ruler flat in response but instead tilted up or down to compensate for problems elsewhere in the chain. Speaker too bright get an amp that is warmer and rolls off on the top.
My view is that you start with the component that has specifications that are excellent, then you pick your input source and speakers to be as balanced as your amp. Of course all of this assumes you value fidelity to the source. If your value is instead, pleasing to my ears, you might select components that intentionally add or subtract from the original and do not produce a true high fidelity sound but instead produce a sound that pleases you.
Different goals and as the saying goes: "You pays your money and you takes your chances."
what about class d and difficult loads like magnepans? Are they capable of driving them as well as class a-b. This is the internal debate I am having right now as I am putting my system together with magnepan 1.7’s in mind. .
As far as the above mentioned stock IceEdge amps from Legacy.......you can buy a dual mono amp with the same stock modules delivered from Rouge Audio to your door for less than $1600.....same thing, way less money. I can then do a mod on the amp that will transform it for $600.....
As far as Purifi.....it depends on the skill of the implementor. Check out 10 audio.....they reviewed the $2000 Purifi based NAD C298 and only gave it 6 out of 10......he just reviewed my modified VTV Purifi amp ($1700 total for amp and mod) and gave it a 9.5....and sometimes bordering on 10. There is as much variance in class D as there is in class A/B or tubes. It is all about the skill of the designer.
There are plenty of new class D amps coming out too (almost all GaN based). The $3K GaN based amp from LSA, the $3K GaN amp from Wyred for Sound, the $6K GaN based amp coming from Mytek, the already released $700 GaN amp from Premium Audio and the latest $2500 GaN amp from Orchard. And for serious money the 500 watt GaN mono blocks from Mytek ($20K the pair). Fun times ahead.
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