Chord DAVE DAC

@kneptune 

Yes and this is not an uncommon occurrence. People kindly  respond with good and worthwhile recommendations. The Original poster just vanishes away. Indeed, what was the point?

Charles

I love how these type of posts end.

They are like watching a good movie and then the last minute is deleted, no ending, leaving everyone hanging.  No one knows what happened and what the results were - which is what everyone was trying to contribute to in the first place.   

In the end, why did the thread exist in the first place?   :-)

@curiousjim 

Thanks. Being a smart-ass since a child I got a lot of grief for it… but as an adult, a lot of laughs.

i would have to say, in my own experience, the chord hugo tt2 with m scaler is one of my favorite sounding dacs i have experienced through my extensive dac journey since covid shut us in in early 2020, when i finally implemented music streaming, and thus have been running the gauntlet of dacs, priced high and low

certainly expensive, certainly well marketed, i don’t know too much about what goes on inside, maybe it contains some cheapo parts nestled within those sexy machined cases with colored baubles, but to me, this combo is one of the very small handful of best sounding dacs i heard, and one which i still choose to own - so to me, they did get something right, and maybe the most important thing

@melm 

IMO, though, Chord products are the most cheaply built (except for their cases), overpriced DACs on the market.  The DAVE has a very inexpensive to make switch-mode power supply and at the heart of its analog stage are two $1.50 TI chips.

Noteworthy.

Charles

Better remodel those bathrooms man, or it will cost you even more when the wife finds out. 

As for objective fidelity and measurements ASR, has recently trashed the Chord DAVE.

Objectively speaking, if you follow what's been going on in the forums it is clear to me that one doesn't have to spend more than the cost of the Holo May to get a taste of the best that digital has to offer.  I have done it for less, but I'm not in this thread to promote a brand.

IMO, though, Chord products are the most cheaply built (except for their cases), overpriced DACs on the market.  The DAVE has a very inexpensive to make switch-mode power supply and at the heart of its analog stage are two $1.50 TI chips.  I don't think a component can give more than what it is made of.  A very personal view. And not to mention that this $14,000 DAC needs a $5,650 accessory to sound its best.

@jackhifiguy 

Since your goal seems to be objective fidelity, I would put more stock in measurements than subjective listening impressions. Having said that, out of all the Chord DACs I've listened to over the years (DAVE - with and without M Scaler, Hugo2, Mojo, and Qutest), my favorite is actually the Qutest. It also happens to be the DAC that measures the best. Coincidence? Perhaps.

Audio aside, it may be best to spend the money on those new bathrooms for your family as another poster mentioned. They're much more important than gadgets and gear.

Recently my nephew had a Chord Dave and replaced it with a Lampizator Baltic 3.  It was a marked improvement in SQ in his system.  I liked the difference so much I went and bought the Lampi Big 7 mk2.  It's just so much more organic and natural sounding.

@jackhifiguy   As of today 8/1/22 the price of the DAVE is $14,000  If I were you I'd buy the Chord Hugo TT2..Give the rest to the wife to spruce up the bathrooms.

When funds permit or a deal pops up buy the Mscaler.. Thats what I have and I'm very happy.

Really shows where's someone's priorities lie...

I recently received an inheritance worth about 13k. I can shell out another 2 grand to get my end-game DAC with headphones. Or...maybe the wife and kids want their bathrooms renovated

Is there a wise person at home with a self-confident moral compass with a decision making capacity on exactly how to prioritize the administration of such a generous inheritance?

Other than on either toilets or a DAC. Dunno, Ask dudes at Audiogon.

Priceless.

@charles1dad 

In those circumstances where home auditioning isn’t feasible, I’ll take my chances with other humans who can offer hands (Ears) on feedback. @hilde45 if your past experiences are different, I understand.

I totally agree with you. What I like about your post — and this was really the point I was trying to push — is that there is a middle ground between groundless opining with no empirical controls and strictly controlled listening conditions. And we should strive for that middle ground or at least acknowledge (and specify) the most salient conditions under which our aesthetic judgments are formed.

@itsjustme 

 If you believes measurements no one would spend more than about $100 for a DAC and $300 for an integrated amp. No tubes (terrible measurements). Certainly no vinyl

Yet there are those who vehemently make that very case. If the component has excellent measurements at that price point, you exhibit gullibility by paying more. Listen to it? Why do I need to do that?

Charles

Hi Jack,

Not your question - but ditch the MP3s and subscribe to Tidal or Qobuz. You;ll get at minimum full FLAC ro HD, and a huge library.  You simply cant get good meals from poor ingredients

As to ASR - they measure.  I guess you;ve been in a cave (*maybe wise) but this topic comes up regularly.  If you believes measurements no one would spend more than about $100 for a DAC and $300 for an integrated amp.  No tubes (terrible measurements). Certainly no vinyl (60 dB SNR).  I wont open Pandora's box (what are they missing?, do we like accurate) - but reality says otherwise.

Oh, and I design this stuff professionally as a side hobby, and retired as CTO of a major tech firm, so not unfamiliar with the tech. I sure wish measurements did correlate - my job would be much easier.

Point is I would think long and hard about dropping $14k on a DAC.  If there is any category that is not mature it is DACs.

I also do not feel comfortable dropping 14K on DAC's but for the opposite reason. I think the DAC market has really grown up and reached a very high level with lower costs.

Thank you all so much :)

For the comments or confusion? 😁

@hilde45 Subjective opinions are valuable if… their tastes are similar, their rooms are similar, their equipment is similar, their recordings are similar. Virtually no one goes to any trouble at all to verify these things. We just have people saying, "This DAC is analytical" or "This amp is smooth" and then others — with a completely different setup and tastes (maybe) then chime in and either agree or disagree.

I honestly get your point. The ideal way to judge and evaluate an audio component is to get it into your system and listen with your own ears. Then you make a judgment call. Unfortunately this scenario isn’t always a possibility. So what alternatives are available?

1 Read professional reviews.

2 Communication with those who have owned or heard the audio product.

3 Rely on test bench measurements.

I can only speak in regard to my own actual experience. Feedback and human to human communication with those familiar with a product serves me best. Second in line would be information gathered from a professional audio review.

Reliance on measurements from my perspective/experience a very distant 3rd option. I do find measurements very helpful during a selection process (Determining compatibility potential) but woefully inadequate in regard to determining sound quality.

I accept the reality that through verbal and written communication isn’t perfect and extrapolation is required, understood. Feedback and listening impressions from other experienced music lovers has just served me very well on multiple occasions.

In those circumstances where home auditioning isn’t feasible, I’ll take my chances with other humans who can offer hands (Ears) on feedback. @hilde45 if your past experiences are different, I understand.

Charles

@yogi42 I admit my DAC is the most expensive component in my system:

Amp $6K

Streamer $5k

Speakers $9K

DAC     $13K

That is on purpose.  The DAC is where the most important stuff happens.  ASR thinks they can measure some parameter and characterize a dac with a number.   conversion from Digital to analog is like translating a language.  Write me an algoritm to measure the accent of a German text translated to Swahili?  

So I listened to a lot of DACs and bought the best one.  

I started with my speakers, went through about 5 amps, and 3 streamers.  

I guess I got to the right DAC after 4.

Jerry

I want the DAC to be accurate. Just want to hear the music the way it was recorded.

Not sure what this means. The music was recorded using specific mics, in a specific room using a specific Analog to digital device, then played back over specific speakers (or headphones) and mixed accordingly, and then it was mixed again with certain kinds of output devices in mind (compression, perhaps).

In other words, you may be after something you will enjoy, but how you get back to some Ur-recording is mystifying. To hear it "the way they heard it" at the very least means being in their listening room (mixing studio), in their chair, with their speakers and playback system. Other than that, it’s all gavagai -- a translation.

But measurements don’t tell the entire story...so subjective opinions and objective reviews from professionals are necessary.

Subjective opinions are valuable if… their tastes are similar, their rooms are similar, their equipment is similar, their recordings are similar. Virtually no one goes to any trouble at all to verify these things. We just have people saying, "This DAC is analytical" or "This amp is smooth" and then others — with a completely different setup and tastes (maybe) then chime in and either agree or disagree.

Has anyone compared the DAC in a Chord DAVE to one in a high-end streamer like an Esoteric N-01XD?

Thank you all so much :)

In these forums (and just about any other forum on the internet), most times discussions revolve around inquiries and perspectives. When done well, those perspectives surface values, which can be helpful to learning how those values can be fulfilled, especially if the community is empathetic to them. The unfortunate thing is that everybody’s values are different, AND not everyone is empathetic to each others’ values. If we could all just be more empathetic to each other and not force our opinions on others, online communities would be much healthier places (mentally).

That said, I’ve been in the boat to have made to feel like how jjss49 and charles1dad have by many (meaning I support both of your posts), mostly because I am spending more on my gear than others or spend more time dialing things in. But in truth, I have never regretted any of my big purchases or effort because they have yielded more than satisfactory results. The purchase themselves and the marketing hype is not what drives the validation, but the comparison to many others’ systems and rooms to mine, as well as the personal satisfaction I get from listening and being transported and the way it makes me feel makes the whole journey worthwhile.

@charles1dad

Anything more than they can/want to spend is simply the result of hype, clever marketing and of course a good dose of the ever present snake oil.

ding ding ding... bingo!!!

more than i can/am willing to spend, so anyone who spends more is a foo'

@jackhifiguy 

At this point I don't believe that there is any category of equipment that is "end game" at a purely technical level.  It may be "end game" to you though.

Point is I would think long and hard about dropping $14k on a DAC.  If there is any category that is not mature it is DACs.

You'll get plenty of attention when willing to spend at that level. An alternative is get on a plane and audition.

Just my 2 cents. 

Regards,

barts 

It seems that you are  ignoring the elephant in the room. The real question are your electronics Amp.preamp,source and speakers worthy of a $15,000 DAC.

@blisshifi, I like that you mentioned synergy with the rest of a system because I believe that it is a critical consideration when putting together an enjoyable setup. After demoing several excellent DACs, and deciding that Rob Watts Chord FPGA designs were the flavour that I liked the best, I decided to build my dedicated headphone system around the Chord Hugo TT2 and M Scaler. Everything from the wall socket to my headphones, LPSUs, the power conditioner and power cables, interconnects, music server/streamer, RFI/EMI filters, tube headphone amplifier, and an Audiowise SRC.DX USB > BNC converter, were all chosen specifically to work seamlessly with the Chord TT2 and M Scaler so as to maximize their capabilities and to get the exact sound of music that I prefer. 
 

I chose the TT2 because I liked its tonality and its form more than that of the DAVE.  The real deal when looking at high-end audio gear is that you’ve really got to audition as many different types of DACs, amps, and speakers as you possibly can, and not be in any kind of hurry to spend one’s money. When you get into the Chord, dCS, Nagra, MSB, Tambaqui, Holo May rarified air of digital audio converters, to me it becomes a totally subjective endeavor. Shop around and buy what you like and can afford. Easy peasy! 

Hope this guy gives you some perspective as Dave is compared w/ another world class Terminator II dac.

The DAVE is an excellent DAC.  I  owned it for over a year.  

Keep your eyes peeled for a used one!  

I want the DAC to be accurate. Just want to hear the music the way it was recorded. But measurements don't tell the entire story...so subjective opinions and objective reviews from professionals are necessary.

remember that a equivalent software package can do the same and more for $150 (FPPB-RT). You don’t need a $5000 box from Chord to do it (M-scaler).

As ASIC designer I can say it is not true.

In term of calculations power of performance Software can't compete to dedicated hardware in real time application, even close! 

Where do you live?  Are their any audio shows near your area you can drive to.

One last thing. If the number of “taps” used by an upsampled seems important to you because of what Chord says, remember that a equivalent software package can do the same and more for $150 (FPPB-RT). You don’t need a $5000 box from Chord to do it (M-scaler).

Noteworthy and reasonable to look further into.

Charles

@jackhifiguy Based on what @adasdad said, I want to reiterate my questions from earlier which you didn’t answer. What attributes have you heard about it that sound appealing? What kind of sound signature do you find most appealing, and what DAC would it be replacing and in what system?

I strayed away from saying anything about the DAVE being analytical because I didn’t want to get into a debate about it. It really comes down to the synergy with the rest of your system and how revealing the system is. The Mola Mola Tambaqui also shares the same flavor. Both are engaging, but they are more analytical than they are musical, maybe the Tambaqui is almost equal, but it sure doesn’t sound as organic as many other DACs. 

Listen to all that you can. But what you like the kind of. It doesn’t have to be expensive to sound good. Consider Delta-Sigma, Resistor Ladder (R2R), and FPGA, based types of DACs. Remember that the actual chip, or way the 1’s and 0’s are changed to an analog wave for is actually not the hard part. It is the circuit design, clock, power supply, and analog output stage that really determines the sound quality of a DAC. I have owned a few DACs and right now my favorite is the Gustard x26 Pro. It beats my Topping D90, D10, and my modified MSB Gold III. Also remember that “end-game” in a still evolving area (digital audio conversion) is not an easy thing to identify. Much easier in an amplifier or pre amp as they have been around for 100 years. $13k is a lot of money. If you come to this group openly asking for suggestions, I’d suggest you have a lot more research and learning to be done on your end first.
One last thing. If the number of “taps” used by an upsampled seems important to you because of what Chord says, remember that a equivalent software package can do the same and more for $150 (FPPB-RT). You don’t need a $5000 box from Chord to do it (M-scaler).

edit: I would also add that if CD’s are too expensive for you to buy and you are downloading 320MP3 from torrent sites, then you should not be dropping $13000 on a DAC and should put the money to use elsewhere.  Don’t let if burn a hole in your pocket. 

“hmmm, maybe I need a high end system in the bathroom.”

@ghdprentice George, you crack me up!

@jackhifiguy if you are planning on spending this amoun5 of money there are many other great dacs out there. I have been on a dac journey with many brands. Chord is good but there are better options imo. 

I went from chord to dCS with the Bartok and now own an MSB Discrete. To me the Bartok is now overpriced as is the Dave. 

@charles1dad  yes there is a huge level of jealousy  involved  as well. 

I had the Chord TT2 and m-scaler for over a year which sounded excellent. Upgraded to the DAVE in Feb - definitely an improvement over the TT2 but the TT2 is more forgiving of recording quality, the DAVE makes no attempt to smooth out rough recordings. M-scaler? This refines the DAVE even further but I can see why some like the DAVE on its own, I think rhythm is better without the scaler but you also lose some coherency, a sense of musicians playing together.  See if you can audition one at home.

Not heard the Dave, but I read a lot of reviews and ended up getting the Holo May KTE. It’s the most perfect sounding dac I’ve heard, and if you look at what others saying, who heard both, it beats the Dave. For the price of the Dave you can get more value and more sound elsewhere, because you’re paying top dollar for British employees doing research and development.

also don’t forget the technology in Dave is from 2014, as good as that was at the time, there’s some new developments that surfaced in the past years which could make the Dave obsolete. Besides I personally hate the design and the looks of the Dave:)

Regarding M-Scaler which is a must if you want to get the best out of Dave, it’s easily bested by hqplayer, but does require more effort than plug and play.

enjoy the music!

@retiredfarmer It tells me anytime  some one says a really cheap piece is better than a top flight piece You know the only thing that has happened is the good piece is showing  how bad the rest of there system is

You give them more benefit of the doubt than I. My strong suspicion is they haven’t even heard the more expensive product they’re so dismissive of. I believe that it is more philosophical in nature. Anything more than they can/want to spend is simply the result of hype, clever marketing and of course a good dose of the ever present snake oil.

Charles

It tells me anytime  some one says a really cheap piece is better than a top flight piece You know the only thing that has happened is the good piece is showing  how bad the rest of there system is. 

@jackhifiguy, the Chord DAVE is a great DAC! I’ve heard it in a $250,000 2-channel speaker system. I’ve demoed it in my modest home setup. And both times I was completely captivated by its resolution and clarity. It has superb instrument separation and a phenomenal soundstage. I would describe its sound as neutral tilting toward the analytical. If you want to hear everything in a recording in minute detail, then the Chord DAVE would be a good fit for you. Because of the DAVE’s lofty price any good Chord dealer should be glad to send you one for a home demo. 

@jackhifiguy 

As you can see everyone is recommending their favorite. I would recommend doing blind testing on some of the models you are interested in and let your ears decide. There is no bias if you don’t know which one you are listening to. Good luck ! 
 

Ron 

Full disclosure, I've never auditioned the Dave. That said, any luxury consumer electronics product in the 5 figure range should have a display that does not look like a ransom note. 

At 4 kilos the DAVE DAC makes a great $14K door stopper! Spending more than three figures for a DAC is a waste of money. I'd take a Topping DX3-Pro ($250) any day over this Chord!

Holo May KTE. All you need.

Good points regarding the toilets. A heated toilet seat in the wintertime would be quite nice indeed….