Buyer is claiming damage that was done by him!
The last dozen sales, I take pics of how the items are packed, serial #’s, outside pics of the boxes, and a short video of the piece playing. I always send with insurance and adult signature required. I always send the pics and short videos to the buyer and he has to agree he is ok with everything. These procedures have saved me numerous times: buyer said he never received the item but I checked and the shipper had his signature, somebody tried to state the vintage piece didn’t work and he was going to do a swap with his non-working piece so when I told him I will only take it back if the serial #’s matched, he decided to keep it, and a few other instances. These all used PayPal. I’m selling a 150lb turntable now and will only sell it locally after the person hears it and pays cash. Sold a pair of 140lb Ushers that were in perfect shape with boxes and I refused to ship. The guy drove 1000 miles round trip to pick them up. Doing it this way both parties know what they are getting with no surprises. |
Brett From what I can gather you are a great person to do business with and I understand your wanting to make this right by offering the buyer the money for the grills. I feel for you here as it is a tough situation and as a multiple seller both here and on eBay myself, customer satisfaction is paramount and your reputation is everything. I think we are all in agreement from the information so far that this was buyer inflicted and you are in no way to blame for the damage. It maybe a bitter pill but you could be right that refunding a portion to help cover grills is the best way to get out of this mess even though it is galling when you know it is not your fault. Unfortunately been there and done that but through eBay as they really do always side with the buyer 99% of the time. From what I have read so far I would do business with you any day sir! Good luck and I hope the grills are not too expensive. |
Certainly feel OP's pain here and believe he is being generous in his responses to buyer. Had similar on a deal on another forum which left a sour taste. My experience with Paypal is that they side with buyer everytime there's a report of item 'damage' to save themselves hassle of dealing with buyer's credit card company, but an important part of this is to report supposed shipping damage to Fed Ex. They will usually send someone to view the boxes at recipient's location to determine if the damage was possibly shipping related, and if so they can help resolve it, but even if not, this is important data for further interactions with the buyer and can make some who claim shipping damage soften their stance. Now it is still possible the buyer is being straight up and the damage did occur after you sent it but before he received it, but I'd get the shipping company's examination on this just for the record. As shipper you can initiate this and they'll contact the buyer to arrange inspection. The suggestion to send pics of corner damage to Harbeth is a good one too. |
From what you describe it doesn't seem possible that the damage described was done in transit. It sounds like someone tried to pry the grills off as you said. It really comes down to whether you want to take an unjustified hit to your rating or pay for something that appears to have not been your fault. I would contact Harbeth and hope they show some sympathy and help you out. They might, especially if your replacement speakers were another pair of Harbeths. |
I’ve owned Harbeths and removed the grills once gingerly prying them loose. Harbeth wants you to use the grills judging by the difficulty of removal. The inner and outer boxes provided by Harberh for shipping are very good. The outer box might sustain damage, doubtful the inner one would. How the inner boxes would suddenly “open” and cause damage is inexplicable. I call BS on the buyer, so I would ask him to return the speakers to you with him paying freight and insurance or have him deal with FedEx. The standard damage with FedEx is $100 so alternatively you could reimburse him the difference for the grill prices. My bet is that the grills are expensive. |
Was this one box or two? If one box, and the inner box was not sealed, then is there foam between the speakers? If yes, then how could they have "bumped" into each other, unless the foam is damaged? In this case, I'd want to see pics of the foam showing the damage. Just because the inner box was not sealed does not mean the inner packaging could have shifted. Both boxes have to be opened to move the inner packaging. It two boxes, then I'd still like to see the packaging. I don't see how it's possible that both speakers are damaged on the corners, unless the packaging is damaged. In either case, the packaging had to be damaged as well, making it an insurance claim. |
UPDATE- I called the Harbeth distributor and he gave me a price of $90 plus shipping for new grills. I told the seller and he wanted a $200 rebate. I agreed and gave him back $200. He said he would give me positive feedback. Hopefully I will not hear from this guy anymore. I would like to thank all of you for the input on this problem that I had! |
2 years ago bought a Velodyne subwoofer via Ebay. FedEx delivered with a crushed corner of the box. Submitted a claim. Seller had to sign off on the claim for FedEx. Once paperwork was done to FedEx satisfaction, they sent a full refund for the sub and the shipping. The sub still works perfect, just looks a little beat up. FedEx did not want the sub-go figure. Just my two cents |
@timo62 I gave them a try and I did not care for them in my room. I bought the new P3ESR 40th anniversary. I guess I just like smaller speakers! Thanks |
I kinda agree. I hate naming names, but in this case, I would feel better knowing who this dude is...so that I can avoid him. P3ESR 40th anniversarySWEET! I really, really like that speaker...congrats! |
I've dealt with this stuff before, and know a lot of eBay sellers that have also. And you made the right decision IMO. This was the smart play. And your good nature served you well. Had the seller chosen to go to PayPal for a refund. They would have tried to get both of you to pay return shipping, and see who blinked first. And then after a short period of like a month or so they would have refunded the buyer the entire amount. Now if you both chose to be stubborn. He would have gotten to keep the speakers, and the refund. But I'm assuming you would have paid the return shipping. So you would have most likely paid the shipping both ways, had to buy the new grills anyway, and got stuck dealing with having to sell the damaged speakers again. This would have surely cost you more then the $200. A lot more! Yes you got screwed out of $200, but it could have been worse. I would chalk it up to a $200 lesson that might save me money in the future. Unfortunately this is the reality of selling online, at least when using PayPal. And now you know why you see some sellers on forums that refuse to take PayPal. Unfortunately you have no choice on certain platforms, like eBay. But that's a whole other story there. Cheers Andy B. |
Sound decision Yogi! Right now with an agreement on the table I would keep quiet, make sure they agree all is well and leave positive feedback. Make sure when you refund the $200 it is from the same PayPal payment they sent for the speakers. That way if they try to make any more noise down the road PayPal will see that you ALREADY dealt with them and they agreed to a partial refund and that will be the end of that! Do NOT ask me how I know this...…... |
WOW- This must be the week of seller side issues. I have been both buyer and seller here and on other sites. But this is a first for me. Last week I sold a fully factory upgraded Dahlquist LP-1 active crossover. Despite this unit having functioned perfectly in my different systems at home and its intact arrival to buyer, he demanded a send back within days and a full refund after discovering it brought a "noise" to his system.
I offered suggestions on possible remedies and even had the Dahlquist techs offer their guidance to identify any possible system caused conflicts. No matter- I now have had a PayPal dispute started that, despite having all my proof documents, photos, receipts, will likely end up placing me on the losing end as a seller. I guess maybe I have been naive, lucky, or it was just my turn. Yes- I am very realistic- I understand the many pitfalls dealing with high end audio components exchanged and put thru the rigors of our US shipping options but this unit was not just "used gear" -especially considering the $370 referenced service center upgrade/check up by the Dahlquist experts last September. It was not only fully functional and in excellent shape but brought up into modern times by experts. And mind you-the service was my choice-there
were no problems with the unit before or after the factory upgrade. During the initial phases of this buyer dispute I was eager to help and actually reached out to the shop back east that did the work. They spent the time going over potential causes of noise with me over email. I was given little specifics as to the "noise" from buyer but the service center not only offered potential answers but they even gladly offered to help the buyer directly to better integrate the unit with his system or identify what is going on with the noise. I even offered a contribution in good faith to make everyone happy. Sadly today PayPal dispute has ruled for send back and refund. SO HELP ME (and likely, many others) OUT here....What exactly are the "rules of the road" as a seller? Going forward something sold like this-and in this condition can be demanded to be returned indefinitely? I am not being sarcastic-- I genuinely want to know the usual protocols and seller's expectations after an item has been well packed-insured-shipped-and arrived as it left. I don't get it! Like someone said...is it worth this kind of trouble selling online? |
This is why I hate using paypal. Audiogon makes every transaction run through paypal now. Even if it is for a local pickup. Paypal doesnt protect sellers at all. As a buyer, you can go around demoing peoples gear for cost of shipping if you wanted to take advantage of paypals buyer protection. Ive had this exact same thing happen to me a number of times. You kinda have to just do what the buyer wants, or else you get the item back, and lose out on shipping. And who knows what the buyer did to your gear. I had a 70lb center channel a guy wanted real bad. I told him I would not ship it. He begged and begged, and I finally gave in and packed it up and shipped it. I triple boxed it. Buyer emailed me and said the speaker was damaged, but the box was perfect. He filed a claim with paypal, and I was out the money, and was returned a center speaker that looked like it was dropped off the roof of a house and with blown drivers. I ended up just throwing it away, and was out $1,000. |
@yogiboy Being that you stated "I know that many ruin these speakers trying to pry the magnetic grills off incorrectly", did you give him a heads up about this before he received them? Whenever I sell and ship something that may require special attention, I will send them a message about how to unpack, etc. |
If the shippers were not taped properly as the buyer alleges, don’t you think Fedex would have picked that up? Why would Fedex allow improper packaging through there system? The story doesn’t make sense. You sound like a very conscientious person, but the buyer doesn’t seem to match you in that regard. |
Did you bother to insure them? You should never fold to this sort of claim, especially when not accompanied by photos. Only people who get buyers remorse for some reason try this crap. PayPal will invariably take his side which makes no sense. But if there is no box damage then he is absolutely full of crap! And no phone call? |
It is exceedingly obvious that the buyer tried to remove the grills and damaged the speakers, and as anyone who owns or has owned Harbeth speakers understands the grills are very difficult to remove and it is very easy to damage the speakers. Skylan sells a magnet device to remove the grills which is very worthwhile for Harbeth owners. Yogiboy seems to be a very honest audio enthusiast who is active in this forum and has sold many Harbeth speakers by sharing his opinions on this very fine company's products. It would be nice if Harbeth would step up and send the buyer a few new grills just to put an end to this unfortunate situation. |
@guppy The distributor ( FIDELIS ) has shipped him new grills ( at my cost ). I shipped this magnet puller with the speakers but I guess this dimwit did not read my instructions. The only thing I got from this sale is a bad case of agida! https://www.homedepot.com/p/MASTER-MAGNETICS-100-lb-Pull-Power-Handle-Magnets-96544/203613179 |
Were the speakers insured? If so, make a damage claim with FedEx. How did he pay for the speakers, Paypal, credit card? I would be concerned that he will put the transaction in dispute and get his money that way. As much as it hurts, paying for new grills might be cheaper in the long run if that resolves it. I hate when this stuff happens. Good luck. |
I had similar experience with Larry D. Moore, Ultra Fi. but as a consumer Although there are some positive feedbacks regarding him – which I had I relied on before ordering gears from him-Its turnout that hi is a cheater and others were hurt by him as well.
Normally, you do not post this and absorb the injury thinking you are the only foolish But then I realized that others were hurt too. I decided to do something: I turned to PayPal, which examined my claims and tried to give me back as much as they could from his account. I understood from them that this was not the only complaint they had received And so, I asked them to block his account from being used And so they did Since his account was blocked, he had to close his audio company which does not exist. More than that, I turned to an Audio website (very known), which they had previously published a positive review on one of his gear, and after showing them proof of my claims including his delusional answers, they dropped that review out of their website. Today he is not running an Audio gear compony (and if he will do that -he will be in bad situation) He is working as patent attorney and I still haven't contacted them to talk about their employee. case details briefly Cheating on me included sending a defective product Due to poor planning After being tested and certified by a certified audio technician, the device's construction was poor and caused it to burn the gear was sent back At Mr. Moore request, and so it was. But then, Mr. Moore told me that the shipping box was totally ruined, and he cannot fix it and will not want to fix it. I guess I'm not the only one hurt as a customer. The problem is that we do not advertise the bad things and thus allow them to happen
I guess other customers of the same company or others will not be happy with what I wrote because it will in some way hurt their ability to sell their product (if they under the same brand name)
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