Yogi, glad to hear that things worked out as well as could have. You went over the top to get to this point. You are to be commended.
Buyer is claiming damage that was done by him!
Hi group,
I sold a pair of mint Harbeths. I shipped them in original double boxed carton with original bonnets covering them. I just received this EMAIL from the buyer. I know that many ruin these speakers trying to pry the magnetic grills off incorrectly. What is my recourse with this issue?
Thanks much for your input!
This is the EMAIL I received from the buyer!
Hi. I picked up the speakers from FedEx yesterday. They arrived with some minor dents around the front top corners near the grille on both speakers. When I opened the outer box, I've noticed that one side of the inner box wasn't sealed on top and as a result the speakers came out of the top foam speaker holder. I guess the damage occurred from speakers bumping against each other. The grill cloth is also ripped near the dents. I've sent an email to Harbeth asking how much replacement grills are going to cost. I could probably live with those dents but grills might be replaced at some point. I'm still waiting on my amp to come back from service, so I have not even plugged the speakers in yet. Hopefully the drivers are ok.
I sold a pair of mint Harbeths. I shipped them in original double boxed carton with original bonnets covering them. I just received this EMAIL from the buyer. I know that many ruin these speakers trying to pry the magnetic grills off incorrectly. What is my recourse with this issue?
Thanks much for your input!
This is the EMAIL I received from the buyer!
Hi. I picked up the speakers from FedEx yesterday. They arrived with some minor dents around the front top corners near the grille on both speakers. When I opened the outer box, I've noticed that one side of the inner box wasn't sealed on top and as a result the speakers came out of the top foam speaker holder. I guess the damage occurred from speakers bumping against each other. The grill cloth is also ripped near the dents. I've sent an email to Harbeth asking how much replacement grills are going to cost. I could probably live with those dents but grills might be replaced at some point. I'm still waiting on my amp to come back from service, so I have not even plugged the speakers in yet. Hopefully the drivers are ok.
110 responses Add your response
It's whoever arranged the shipping that has the shipping contract and any claims have to go via those parties. The OP clearly didn't want to raise a claim as he clearly believes it's not damage occurring during shipping. So it's obviously very difficult from that point. I think you have come to a pragmatic solution which obviously cost you some profit but won't leave you out of pocket. Looking ahead if Anyone is shipping Harberth's is to very clearly communicate the process to remove the screens. |
A few facts from many years of shipping and dealing with both fedex and ups ( I wont even go into the headache involved with usps!) Majority of the time if damage or package is lost the company will not even talk to the buyer, it is the person who shipped who has to start all claims etc. Usual procedure for myself would be to refund the buyer in case of damage or loss and then go for reimbursement via fedex or ups. This may involve them having to inspect the goods so best to keep up a good rapport with the buyer in case you need them to drop the package off at a depot OR let fedex/ups inspect at their premises ( if over $1000 value you can insist they come out and not you take it in). And unless it has changed significantly in the last 3 years ( that was last claim I filed for damage of shipped goods to a buyer) that is really all there is to it! |
You guys may be right but I still think the seller should intervene and provide as much help as possible including up to providing a refund. It can be a nightmare dealing with Fed Ex, UPS and the post office. This is not something that anyone of us could enjoy. I suppose there are scammers but I think (hopefully) that is a rarity. However, in this case it does sound fishy. My experience has been that the first question from the shipping company is; Are you the shipper? Again, I say the seller needs to be involved bigtime and be as helpful as he can and don’t point fingers in the other directions. ozzy |
edkc is right. As long as shipments are insured it is the responsibility of the receiving party to file a claim. The shipper (seller) has no responsibility because the freight company accepted them, insured them and is responsible for delivering them. The shipper (seller) has no responsibility because he has no control over what happens to them. This issue happens to me from time to time at work. A customer signs for a damaged shipment then wants me to pay for damage. The signature transfers ownership. If there is damage that was undetected at the time of delivery, the accepting party usually has "X" number of days to file a claim. People who purchase goods must take responsibility to understand the shipping process and to always have shipments insured. The seller has no control over the shipment of the product and should not be held responsible. There, that's my soapbox speech! |
Unfortunately, some times there is nothing you can do, other than as one comment suggested, taking pictures of the item with all internal packing visible, prior to closing the exterior box. As the seller, unless otherwise provided in your ad, you are responsible for getting the item safely to the buyer. That is why you should always insure whatever you are shipping. At least make the claim for the $100 if you didn't insure it! That being said, the story does sound fishy, as the factory internal packaging should prevent any damage and the likelihood that there was damage to the internal packing without any exterior damage is pretty slim (but not impossible, I suppose). You clearly went above and beyond the call of duty in trying to make the buyer happy. Compare that to an experience that I had on here buying a $2K subwoofer. It was packed at a UPS store. When I received the box, it looked like some UPS employees used it like a soccer ball. The exterior box was significantly damaged, the interior box was also damaged at the same places, corners were crushed, knobs broken off, etc. I took pictures of everything before I opened the box and then documented everything as I opened it up and showed the enormous damage. I called UPS and they said it was only insured for $100, but that if it was packed at a UPS store, the UPS store would refund the purchase price, BUT ONLY TO THE SELLER. I told the seller that I was sending it back to him to deal with. Seller refused to refund my money, claimed that the shipping damage was my problem, and when I opened a PayPal dispute, argued against PayPal paying me. Although PayPal initially ruled against me notwithstanding the photographic evidence, I called PayPal and complained and they ultimately ruled in my favor. So, the moral of the story is that stuff happens. Sometimes outside of the control of either party. But if you take steps to (1) document the packing, (2) insure it, and (3) as a buyer, if the box looks damaged when you receive it, start documenting the unboxing, you can avoid most problems with people who have good feedback. |
IMHO Brett went above and beyond in this situation and is an excellent example of the type of seller you can trust and respect, hats off. Now just to share an experience of mine from past couple of days of somebody exact polar opposite! I purchased approx. 200 cassette tapes from a buyer in Washington State to be shipped to myself in Florida, yep 3000 miles. They shipped them within a flimsy cardboard box with zero internal packing of any sort at all. My USPS driver pointed out the obvious damage to box and did I want to accept it. I decided to accept. Upon opening and inspection the tapes seemed ok but there were approx. 20 broken cases. Sent seller a message through Ebay of the situation and that I would be happy just to source some new cases. Now I searched eBay and found somebody selling 20 empty cases for $8 shipped so I bought them. Long and short the seller ends up arguing about the $8 refund as not their fault the post office damaged them! Say what? I sent them pictures of their crabby packing and box and that imho the USPS could hardly be blamed for that. It should never have gone past one email tbh! Situations reversed if a buyer had just asked me for $8 to resolve a potential $100 problem ( return and return shipping etc), the refund would have been done before the literal ink was dry on the paper! This was from a seller of 1575 feedback so should have KNOWN much better . I could have demanded a return with full refund and/or left negative feedback for their stupidity IF I was an unreasonable person. But no I took it upon myself to find empty cases, buy them and expect that for $8 it would have been a cut and dry case. STILL not seen a refund yet.... lol. Could not care less about $8 but the principle, well that's what stings! |
I had similar experience with Larry D. Moore, Ultra Fi. but as a consumer Although there are some positive feedbacks regarding him – which I had I relied on before ordering gears from him-Its turnout that hi is a cheater and others were hurt by him as well.
Normally, you do not post this and absorb the injury thinking you are the only foolish But then I realized that others were hurt too. I decided to do something: I turned to PayPal, which examined my claims and tried to give me back as much as they could from his account. I understood from them that this was not the only complaint they had received And so, I asked them to block his account from being used And so they did Since his account was blocked, he had to close his audio company which does not exist. More than that, I turned to an Audio website (very known), which they had previously published a positive review on one of his gear, and after showing them proof of my claims including his delusional answers, they dropped that review out of their website. Today he is not running an Audio gear compony (and if he will do that -he will be in bad situation) He is working as patent attorney and I still haven't contacted them to talk about their employee. case details briefly Cheating on me included sending a defective product Due to poor planning After being tested and certified by a certified audio technician, the device's construction was poor and caused it to burn the gear was sent back At Mr. Moore request, and so it was. But then, Mr. Moore told me that the shipping box was totally ruined, and he cannot fix it and will not want to fix it. I guess I'm not the only one hurt as a customer. The problem is that we do not advertise the bad things and thus allow them to happen
I guess other customers of the same company or others will not be happy with what I wrote because it will in some way hurt their ability to sell their product (if they under the same brand name)
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Were the speakers insured? If so, make a damage claim with FedEx. How did he pay for the speakers, Paypal, credit card? I would be concerned that he will put the transaction in dispute and get his money that way. As much as it hurts, paying for new grills might be cheaper in the long run if that resolves it. I hate when this stuff happens. Good luck. |
@guppy The distributor ( FIDELIS ) has shipped him new grills ( at my cost ). I shipped this magnet puller with the speakers but I guess this dimwit did not read my instructions. The only thing I got from this sale is a bad case of agida! https://www.homedepot.com/p/MASTER-MAGNETICS-100-lb-Pull-Power-Handle-Magnets-96544/203613179 |
It is exceedingly obvious that the buyer tried to remove the grills and damaged the speakers, and as anyone who owns or has owned Harbeth speakers understands the grills are very difficult to remove and it is very easy to damage the speakers. Skylan sells a magnet device to remove the grills which is very worthwhile for Harbeth owners. Yogiboy seems to be a very honest audio enthusiast who is active in this forum and has sold many Harbeth speakers by sharing his opinions on this very fine company's products. It would be nice if Harbeth would step up and send the buyer a few new grills just to put an end to this unfortunate situation. |
Did you bother to insure them? You should never fold to this sort of claim, especially when not accompanied by photos. Only people who get buyers remorse for some reason try this crap. PayPal will invariably take his side which makes no sense. But if there is no box damage then he is absolutely full of crap! And no phone call? |
If the shippers were not taped properly as the buyer alleges, don’t you think Fedex would have picked that up? Why would Fedex allow improper packaging through there system? The story doesn’t make sense. You sound like a very conscientious person, but the buyer doesn’t seem to match you in that regard. |
@yogiboy Being that you stated "I know that many ruin these speakers trying to pry the magnetic grills off incorrectly", did you give him a heads up about this before he received them? Whenever I sell and ship something that may require special attention, I will send them a message about how to unpack, etc. |
This is why I hate using paypal. Audiogon makes every transaction run through paypal now. Even if it is for a local pickup. Paypal doesnt protect sellers at all. As a buyer, you can go around demoing peoples gear for cost of shipping if you wanted to take advantage of paypals buyer protection. Ive had this exact same thing happen to me a number of times. You kinda have to just do what the buyer wants, or else you get the item back, and lose out on shipping. And who knows what the buyer did to your gear. I had a 70lb center channel a guy wanted real bad. I told him I would not ship it. He begged and begged, and I finally gave in and packed it up and shipped it. I triple boxed it. Buyer emailed me and said the speaker was damaged, but the box was perfect. He filed a claim with paypal, and I was out the money, and was returned a center speaker that looked like it was dropped off the roof of a house and with blown drivers. I ended up just throwing it away, and was out $1,000. |
WOW- This must be the week of seller side issues. I have been both buyer and seller here and on other sites. But this is a first for me. Last week I sold a fully factory upgraded Dahlquist LP-1 active crossover. Despite this unit having functioned perfectly in my different systems at home and its intact arrival to buyer, he demanded a send back within days and a full refund after discovering it brought a "noise" to his system.
I offered suggestions on possible remedies and even had the Dahlquist techs offer their guidance to identify any possible system caused conflicts. No matter- I now have had a PayPal dispute started that, despite having all my proof documents, photos, receipts, will likely end up placing me on the losing end as a seller. I guess maybe I have been naive, lucky, or it was just my turn. Yes- I am very realistic- I understand the many pitfalls dealing with high end audio components exchanged and put thru the rigors of our US shipping options but this unit was not just "used gear" -especially considering the $370 referenced service center upgrade/check up by the Dahlquist experts last September. It was not only fully functional and in excellent shape but brought up into modern times by experts. And mind you-the service was my choice-there
were no problems with the unit before or after the factory upgrade. During the initial phases of this buyer dispute I was eager to help and actually reached out to the shop back east that did the work. They spent the time going over potential causes of noise with me over email. I was given little specifics as to the "noise" from buyer but the service center not only offered potential answers but they even gladly offered to help the buyer directly to better integrate the unit with his system or identify what is going on with the noise. I even offered a contribution in good faith to make everyone happy. Sadly today PayPal dispute has ruled for send back and refund. SO HELP ME (and likely, many others) OUT here....What exactly are the "rules of the road" as a seller? Going forward something sold like this-and in this condition can be demanded to be returned indefinitely? I am not being sarcastic-- I genuinely want to know the usual protocols and seller's expectations after an item has been well packed-insured-shipped-and arrived as it left. I don't get it! Like someone said...is it worth this kind of trouble selling online? |
Sound decision Yogi! Right now with an agreement on the table I would keep quiet, make sure they agree all is well and leave positive feedback. Make sure when you refund the $200 it is from the same PayPal payment they sent for the speakers. That way if they try to make any more noise down the road PayPal will see that you ALREADY dealt with them and they agreed to a partial refund and that will be the end of that! Do NOT ask me how I know this...…... |
I've dealt with this stuff before, and know a lot of eBay sellers that have also. And you made the right decision IMO. This was the smart play. And your good nature served you well. Had the seller chosen to go to PayPal for a refund. They would have tried to get both of you to pay return shipping, and see who blinked first. And then after a short period of like a month or so they would have refunded the buyer the entire amount. Now if you both chose to be stubborn. He would have gotten to keep the speakers, and the refund. But I'm assuming you would have paid the return shipping. So you would have most likely paid the shipping both ways, had to buy the new grills anyway, and got stuck dealing with having to sell the damaged speakers again. This would have surely cost you more then the $200. A lot more! Yes you got screwed out of $200, but it could have been worse. I would chalk it up to a $200 lesson that might save me money in the future. Unfortunately this is the reality of selling online, at least when using PayPal. And now you know why you see some sellers on forums that refuse to take PayPal. Unfortunately you have no choice on certain platforms, like eBay. But that's a whole other story there. Cheers Andy B. |
I kinda agree. I hate naming names, but in this case, I would feel better knowing who this dude is...so that I can avoid him. P3ESR 40th anniversarySWEET! I really, really like that speaker...congrats! |
@timo62 I gave them a try and I did not care for them in my room. I bought the new P3ESR 40th anniversary. I guess I just like smaller speakers! Thanks |
2 years ago bought a Velodyne subwoofer via Ebay. FedEx delivered with a crushed corner of the box. Submitted a claim. Seller had to sign off on the claim for FedEx. Once paperwork was done to FedEx satisfaction, they sent a full refund for the sub and the shipping. The sub still works perfect, just looks a little beat up. FedEx did not want the sub-go figure. Just my two cents |
UPDATE- I called the Harbeth distributor and he gave me a price of $90 plus shipping for new grills. I told the seller and he wanted a $200 rebate. I agreed and gave him back $200. He said he would give me positive feedback. Hopefully I will not hear from this guy anymore. I would like to thank all of you for the input on this problem that I had! |
Was this one box or two? If one box, and the inner box was not sealed, then is there foam between the speakers? If yes, then how could they have "bumped" into each other, unless the foam is damaged? In this case, I'd want to see pics of the foam showing the damage. Just because the inner box was not sealed does not mean the inner packaging could have shifted. Both boxes have to be opened to move the inner packaging. It two boxes, then I'd still like to see the packaging. I don't see how it's possible that both speakers are damaged on the corners, unless the packaging is damaged. In either case, the packaging had to be damaged as well, making it an insurance claim. |
I’ve owned Harbeths and removed the grills once gingerly prying them loose. Harbeth wants you to use the grills judging by the difficulty of removal. The inner and outer boxes provided by Harberh for shipping are very good. The outer box might sustain damage, doubtful the inner one would. How the inner boxes would suddenly “open” and cause damage is inexplicable. I call BS on the buyer, so I would ask him to return the speakers to you with him paying freight and insurance or have him deal with FedEx. The standard damage with FedEx is $100 so alternatively you could reimburse him the difference for the grill prices. My bet is that the grills are expensive. |