This is my first post on Audiogon Forum but I have been a audiophile for almost fifty years. I like to buy and sell used equipment because it gives a chance to try a much wider range of products. Recently I wanted to try different USB cables and in that process I purchased two products from Mad Scientist Audio. One was their Black Magic and the other was the Ultra version. Both were purchased used from different sellers. I own two systems and decided to keep both. In both systems I use a AMR DP-777SE dac. In the system using the standard Black Magic USB the system was not using the built in volume control. About 2 month after purchasing the cable I tried using the internal volume control in the dac and it only worked at full volume. Thinking the dac was faulty I sent it back to TMR (great company) for evaluation. They tested it for 2 weeks in every configuration possible and determined it was working as it should. When i got the unit back (after a cost of approx. $200) I determined that the problem was the Black Magic USB cable. I contacted Bob at Mad Scientist Audio by email multiple times and he replied that his cable is incompatible with 1 in 50 produces and mine must be the 1. I then tried it in two other systems and also had the same results. Either the volume control didn't work or I would get cracking noises. after many emails back and forth Bob would not exchange the cable for a working one and only offered to sell me a Ultra cable at a discount. I don't know what his profit margin or warranty policy is but I have never experienced this especially with a cable manufacture, I offered to send it back to him so that he could access the problem but in the end his last email read "Therefore I don't think it's worth you wasting anymore money trying to fix or exchange your cable." Very disappointing. The cable is now in the trash. I know that this is a small boutique manufacture but with the controversy regarding cable costs and if expensive cable are necessary I thought that buy telling my story maybe it would alleviate this situation with this company.
What I would add is it's all about synergy. You need to get your system in synergy before adding expensive cables. Get your dealer to give you cables on a 30 day loan, a few days is not enough. (I'll get hammered for this but I've found British amps and speakers work well together). Your next upgrade should be power cables, next IC's and finally speaker cables.
It took me years to realise that my speakers were the problem, in my present system. Changing the speakers made a massive difference. If I was a young guy with 2-3 kids and a mortgage that would not have been possible.
I don't use room correction at the moment but a good friend has been raving about a mid-priced system he heard and he said it was amazing, so that's the next rabbit hole...Lol.
I couldn’t agree more (on a side note, part of my post was perhaps unclear; my intent in pinging you was to say that booze, hookers and blow sure seemed like a pretty good salve to @kennyc ’s dismissive, passive-agressive, classist post).
As always, it’s complicated. Admittedly some "naysayers" are idiots - the coat-hanger-as-speaker-cables type. Or the tag team of cretins I once had a fight with on ASR, who insisted that 192k was all the resolution anyone needed and Spotify sounds great and just fine because they use ogg vorbis.
On the other end, evidence shows unambiguously that favorite audiophile amulets and gris-gris, such as $3500 network switches and $500 cat6 patch cables, are utterly useless at improving sound quality.
However, they might be beautifully made and look great. I don’t begrudge anyone for not wanting a cheap-looking plastic Ethernet switch in their listening room, even if it is functionally and sonically identical to the $3,500 one in every respect (do replace the cheap one’s SMPS though).
And it chafes when some schmos start braying about what a stunning difference their audiophile switch makes... better than a new amp... You know.
Intelligent and well-informed audiophiles of the sort you’re referring to will usually admit - privately - that anything in the TCP path is largely immaterial to sound quality. Does that make them naysayers? Like I said, it’s complicated.
At the end of the day, I respect folks who put in the time and effort. You talk about cars, I respect the guy who dailies a beat-up, 200,000-mile flat-floor E-type that he fixes himself, but I don’t particularly care for the retired orthodontist who throws money at some guy to build him a Outlaw 356 he’ll drive 50 miles then list on BaT.
I don't believe anyone is putting anyone else down but the naysayers are not just unique to the audiophile scene, they are in the wine, exotic car, art etc. scenes.
I can't afford to pay $100M for a Francis Bacon painting but I can appreciate it and not be an ass and say my print is just as good.
Everyone knows that a Tesla is faster than most supercars but it's a different ball game.
The younger generations who were weaned on earbuds, MP3 and uninspiring pop music are unlikely to find audiophilia a worthy and rewarding pursuit.
Exorbitant cost isn't always synonymous with great sound but it usually is.
Most audiophiles have built their systems over many decades, trading their way to better gear and cables. So it does rub me raw when someone says they can't hear a difference and your money was wasted on that streamer when you could have bought some flavour of the month $100 black box instead.
Although it’s usually best to be sensitive to not put down another’s system, naysayers system lacking transparency likely near 100% true. Also, there’s commonly a stubborn emotional resentment of unaffordability
You’re right, @kennycit’s best to not just put down other folks’ systems, gotta put down their owners too!! 😂😂🤣
Should we spend our hard earned cash on hookers, booze and blow instead of cables?
Then, you’ll hear all these complaints about how young people are not interested in the hobby. Do you think it’s the hobby they’re not interested in... or the hobbyists? Some hobbyists? Just sayin
Maybe part of the problem is these naysayers don't have a really resolving high end system or their system lacks synergy.
+1 @lordmeltonAlthough it’s usually best to be sensitive to not put down another’s system, naysayers system lacking transparency likely near 100% true. Also, there’s commonly a stubborn emotional resentment of unaffordability, so they rationalize by pointing finger than facing objective truths.
Why do they do it? We have cable derangement syndrome and probably it is associated with TDS.
Who is the patron saint of lost causes. What are they trying to save us from.
Should we spend our hard earned cash on hookers, booze and blow instead of cables?
In my 40+ years of audiophilia I've found that cables are a great investment and actually can increase in value.
When your super duper amp has blown it's caps and your SACD player can't be fixed, you'll get a great deal on your used quality cables 10-15 years later.
Maybe part of the problem is these naysayers don't have a really resolving high end system or their system lacks synergy.
Anyway they can glory in the resplendence of their bell wire.
Audioholics, Gene IS an expert in high end cables he is a audio engineer ! and has explained "the importance of cable geometry. Also educate yourself about cable dielectrics -why the material that cover the metal matters sonically in high-end audio. " he has covered all that ! watch his videos and then post a response ! He explains how they work ( and don’t ) and has tested them using valid tests and testing protocols produced MANY great YT videos !
i looked at your source you suggested " Iconoclast white papers " and CLEARLY it is just an advertisement for a seller of high priced cables so he is hardly unbiased ! he just justifies his prices and presents no graphs , charts measurements , tests at least in a manner understandable to anyone other than an audio engineer !
he should do you tube videos explaining and demonstrating .
Gene , Audioholics does .& He does NOT sell cables . so does Danny ( explain the relevant information ) @ GR research but he sells DIY speaker cable kits all you would ever need for less than $100 pair ! They work .
Thank you for your post ! it highlights again ( if we needed any more confirmation) that high priced cables are snake oil we have more evidence here
the USB they sell , the cables are $300 to 1199 new
i watched carefully the YT videos by Audioholics Gene a real audio engineer who tests empiricly and has been honest for 40 years!
he exposed the fraud of cables like audio quest quite convincingly !
yet some flat eathers STILL persist in insisting THEY can hear things that cannot be measured . a fool and his $ is soon parted !
NO and when you do double blind audio testing w/ someone else switching the cables you will quickly be exposed as fool who was parted fr his $ but people will spend the $ anyway so sometimes i wish i could sleep at night making expensive junk that does not really work. it is pretty cheap to do so too! HUGE profit margin! even if i used some good parts NO WAY would the price justify it
There would STILL be people who insisted it was better , happy customers !
I would not have to prove a thing !
Gee ! you sure can't get away w/ that w/ Exotic cars! or car parts Ferrari could never sell cars that did not work !
car magazines , and YT reviewers TEST cars, parts and report the TRUTH they are believed . how why is it some of you audiophiles ignore and deny truth , facts scientific proof and you believe lies ? some of you educated , intelligent advanced degreed professionals ! in your field of expertise you would NEVER assert things worked if they didn't . your research would be discredited your funding vanish . your personal professional reputation in tatters ! your peers would disown you !
I'd like a new Ferrari ! Cables are a license to print $ unethically
Buyer beware from who the sellers? As a manufacturer of audio components, we try and test our components in multiple systems most of the time for noise as our products are tube designs. It is impossible to manufacture a product and know how it will work in every system. Just not possible to know.
Obviously, we back our products sold new if something should occur. Never had this situation but I guess we would at least be interested in understanding why our product did not work as intended. Seems like MS knows about this situation though. Always willing to learn but we probably would not back a used product as we would not know what happened to the product from a previous owner. We would work with the last owner and try our best to accommodate them for repair expense. Hard to say if we could replicate the issue though.
I think your topic is misleading though as you seem to be putting the blame on the manufacturer.
There are even worse when it comes to so called Audiophile USB and Ethernet Cables. I have auditioned may of these absurdly priced cables and keep coming back to NeoTech UPOCC Silver USB and Ethernet Cables. I have bought my cables in the UK and seeing how Tariffs from the UK and Taiwan are very reasonable they should be obtainable for most.
I should have visited Mad Scientists site, I can see the OP’s point on pricing. Just looked at their USB cable options, wow those are some insanely expensive cables. That said, their site is transparent in this is a side hustle for an Audiophile. One man band in regards to manufacturing and his better half taking care of the rest. About as boutique as you can get.
OP tackles at least 2 or 3 very different topics along with leaving it open for interpretation on what the title of his post means.
Appears he wanted to alert the Audiogon community of potential compatibility issues you could run into with USB cables, noble.
He’s frustrated with the manufacture’s customer service, response to his issue, one could also read into the title of his post as a warning about buying from the USB cable manufacture. As many have pointed out, when you buy used and I’ve bought a lot of used gear, unless specifically noted, most warranties are non transferable. Any help he was offered was honestly more than the manufacture had to provide.
OP also brings up margins, profit with the expectation broadened warranty support, customer service because of perceived margins. For most boutique shops in this hobby the actual net back to their business is small. Volumes are small which means they need to make large profit margins on what they do sell. Resources are limited making it challenging to resolve issues for customers buying their products used. Used market in generally hurts their overall business at times, helping customers circumvent buying their products new isn’t a great business model for them. Frankly, something they likely need to avoid to try and survive, even if it goes against their instincts to stand behind their products, it’s a business reality.
Interesting how a seemingly simple post touches on so many different topics. All are left open to interpretation which caused the responses to hit on a variety of topics.
USB cables need to be compliant with published standards (USB-IF). This way you can be assured that they will operate under all specified conditions including; multidirectional and high-speed communications. Testing for compliance requires proper resources. You can always contact the cable manufacturer directly to determine when the product is certified to bear the USB-IF logo.
I agree with others that the refusal to repair or exchange a cable purchased used from another person is standard for most companies. Warranties are built around the notion that someone builds it properly and is willing to stand up for that. An intermediary could have damaged the cable and unscrupulously sold it to you knowing it was damaged. Or, they may have not liked it (and not known why) and not realized it was defective. In any event, I would not expect that asking a manufacturer to repair it or exchange it would work. I do think that repeatedly asking would eventually lead to a somewhat terse response closing down communication (since you are asking a lot from him but have never given him money for the product in question).
So the title "Buyer Beware" should probably apply to those of us who decide to buy used equipment here, and not to those who are seeking to purchase equipment directly from Mad Scientist Audio. I do not think that this company has acted unethically and am a bit surprised that an experienced audio buyer would think that this company owed him anything in this situation.
Then after some time, you realized used cable #1 is defective?
Instead of contacting the person you purchased it it, you thought it would be warrantied from the manufacture, why you never made a purchase from?
The manufacture said, they would give you a discount on a new cable, that was not good enough?
You can not expect a company to give you something for free when you have never purchased from them in the first place. It's a business not a charity, they are only in it to make money, and giving things away for free is it.
Anytime you purchase something used, it's a gamble, and only you can tell if it's worth it. Sounds like you lost that one, and just want a hand out.
If I'm reading the thread correctly the OP confirms he bought the cables used and not from the manufacturer. Why would he think that somehow the manufacturer has an obligation to exchange or service or refund his cables? There's no warranty obligation whatsoever when buying a used product. Virtually all warranties are only valid with proof of purchase from an authorized dealer and specifically, valid for the original purchaser. If the OP bought a used Parasound amp that he believes has an issue is he expecting Parasound to cover any repair costs?
@richardbrand...Thanks for the short course on USB pedigrees... I'm sure most have noticed the panoply of types, but now we've a better grip as to why... 👍+10
Having been around 'puters and such near an epicenter of such and the related programs they run, there's always seems to be a story of what 'works great with A through Z with exception of Q' regardless of how many times one reboots or gets pissed enough to wipe all and start over @ 0....
..to no avail. *L*
Looking forward to a future argument with an AI, I remain dedicated to creating long sentences (such as the above) to confuse a potential digital dork. ;)
There was a bit on how generative programing of AI's has developed a kink that was unexpected by geekdom.....
The later groups ( 4~5th gens) forget....what, varies....
No wonder they occasionally giggle at night....in the dark.....😏🙄👀
@sdorfman58The only thing at issue is you've not been clear about use of the one Black Magic cable. In your original post you seem to state it worked for two months then suddenly stopped working when you decided to use volume control. This makes all the difference as to whether cable defective or not. Casting false aspersions on cable maker not warranted if cable is not defective.
@mitch2This seems correct, if it was handshake issue dac would have not worked with or without dac volume control.
Ok guys and girls I just entered this post to explain a problem I had after year of buying and selling audio equipment. This was a very unique situation and the outcome although frustrating luckily only cost me approx. $400, a small amount compared to the totality I have spent on this amazing hobby. I will not respond further as I have said all I care to say. Thanks for all your input.
There is no "Black Magic" about USB cables, they either have 2 or 4 internal wires.
Well, that is true for the original Universal Serial Bus (USB 1.x) which had just two wires to carry data, one bit after another. That's where the Serial part of the name comes from, as opposed to multi-wire parallel connectors. The other two wires were to carry DC power at 5 Volts and up to 0.5 Amps for a maximum 2.5 Watts.
USB cables with just two wires are used as power supply cables only - they cannot carry any data.
Some idea of the dramatic evolutionary steps in USB is that the maximum power in the latest standard is almost 100 times more, delivering up to 5 Amps at 48 Volts for 240-Watts.
There have been three more major generations of USB specifications. From Wikipedia USB - Wikipedia
"As of 2024, USB consists of four generations of specifications: USB 1.x, USB 2.0, USB 3.x, and USB4."
So there is no such single thing as USB. It is no longer even Serial! There are now nine families of USB connectors.For example, the new "standard" USB-C connector has 24 pins and looks more like the purpose designed HDMI which is Parallel and eschews data packets.
USB was never designed for error-free streaming.
A stream pipe is a uni-directional pipe connected to a uni-directional endpoint that transfers data using an isochronous,[69]interrupt, or bulk transfer:
Isochronous transfers
At some guaranteed data rate (for fixed-bandwidth streaming data) but with possible data loss (e.g., realtime audio or video)
Interrupt transfers
Devices that need guaranteed quick responses (bounded latency) such as pointing devices, mice, and keyboards
Bulk transfers
Large sporadic transfers using all remaining available bandwidth, but with no guarantees
on bandwidth or latency (e.g., file transfers)
Note the implications here. Audiophiles often believe that because files and messages can be transferred error-free, that implies streams are error-free. They aren't, but you do get your errors for free.
Haven’t read all the posts and I’m sure this is not the first time you’ll read this but you bought used. And not from the vendor. Caveat emptor like your posts states. He did offer a discount on new ones though which I think is pretty fair.
@lordmelton- I agree with you but it seems the cable actually worked for two months and then when the OP decided to use his DAC’s internal volume control, the cable was not compatible with that set up for some reason. It is a used cable, it worked for two months, and it apparently works except in the case of using the internal VC with the OP’s DAC. I understand his calling Mad Scientist to discuss and try to troubleshoot the situation, and I appreciate that Mad Scentist offered a discount on another of their USB cable products but, beyond that, at some point you take risks in order to save money by buying used stuff.
From a technical standpoint, I fail to understand how a USB cable would work with a DAC when it is set to zero attenuation and then fail to work when the DAC’s internal attenuation is engaged. Hasn’t the data transfer already been made by the time attenuation is applied?
This what you stated, "In the system using the standard Black Magic USB the system was not using the built in volume control. About 2 month after purchasing the cable I tried using the internal volume control in the dac and it only worked at full volume."
From this it seems you did indeed use this cable when not using built in volume control and had no complaints. Now after 2 months you try using built in volume control and now only plays at full volume. What am I missing?
Sns What other system did this cable work in? The Black Magic cable did not work in the other system. The Black Magic Ultra cable (another cable) worked in both systems, one and two. The Ultra also worked in my headphone system not the Black Magic. lordmelton Again I am not asking for advice on how to rectify this situation I I am only telling how the manufacture handled the situation and to give possible advice when troubleshooting a issue, as it was not even a thought that a USB cable could cause the the issue I was having with my dac. As far as casting aspersions on the manufacture, take this information and form your own opinions. Of course the cable is not under warranty but offering a discount on a much more expensive cable and not even willing to test my cable at my expense is not the way I thought this would go.
There is no "Black Magic" about USB cables, they either have 2 or 4 internal wires. They can be easily tested with a multimeter for continuity.
There is no special resistance or impedence, only other possibility is earth, are the cable ends showing continuity?
If the cable doesn't work in anything and you can prove damage the seller should give you a refund. I think it's very unfair to cast aspersitions on the manufacturer.
Taking perspective of manufacturer. Based on the fact the Black Magic worked in another system, this proves the cable NOT defective. Based on my idea that at least handshake required for proper operation he'd have to modify your cable with power pin wired in order to make it work with all your setups. I can understand his not wanting to cover cost of shipping and modifying cable, as far as I can see he is not responsible in any way. You purchased used cable without understanding this issue, I'd be talking to seller in this case, if they didn't notify you of this situation prior to purchase they are the responsible party.
I now recall the issue, believe some custom usb cable made without power pin being wired up. Some equipment requires power from upstream component. Some others require only the 'handshake', need to have power pin on initial powering up, then goes to internal power. Whenever someone sells one of these cables either new or used they should notify to buyer. Most cables come with power pin wired up, we just tape if off within connector if not needed. Some also come with dedicated and/or separate power run that runs outside main swath of cable.
Interesting topic…I had a similar issue. I bought a used Revelation Audio Lab USB that was dead silent (no sound at all) when used with my Bricasti M5 streamer feeding my Mojo Mystique EVO Dac. The RAL Usb cable did work fine on my Apple laptop connected to my Mojo Dac. Sent the Usb cable to RAL for evaluation and they confirmed it tested fine. Both my Audioquest Coffee and Veritas Audex cables work fine in my set up…go figure? RAL has offered to replace it free which was great but after 7 months I still have not received the cable after many promises it was shipping next week. I have little faith I will see the new cable or my original used cable returned in the future.
Sorry for your unfortunate experience, but it is interesting to know certain USB cables don’t work with certain products, and I hadn’t heard that before except with i2S connections. BTW, the word “manufacture” is a verb, not a noun. “Manufacturer” is the word you were looking for.
As far as the dac volume control not working with USB . As soon as I substituted another USB cable it worked perfectly. That’s how I knew it wasn’t the dac, the problem was the cable. I know I am screwed I just wanted to alert anyone thinking of buying from this company. Although many manufactures state a warranty, many in my experience chose to give very good customer service rather than upset a customer regardless of new or used.
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