Is there are many traders on audio gun like this some have good histories some maybe not. They use a delivery address which is typically a mailbox place or a shipping company where they receive large amounts of items which are then bundled and shipped as a large shipment. They typically don't have US PayPal accounts that are registered to that address and so it's beware. When challenged they will persistently try to convince you that it's OK I don't feel comfortable and will usually pass.
You should always Google the shipping address and look at it with the street view to see if it looks reasonable as a residence or a place that can be tied to the actual account name. |
Thank you for letting us know.
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There are some unanswered questions in this thread. For it to be useful to the community it would help if the OP could clarify some of what took place with the initial transaction.
When you accepted payment into your PayPal account, was the buyer’s address the US based address and was it ‘PayPal Verified’. One can only assume that it must have been the US address since you said you’d seen no mention of an overseas address prior to shipping. In which case, you ought to be protected under PayPal’s Seller Protection program. If the buyer changed his/her address after the transaction with you, that really should have no bearing on your claim.
Can the OP please clarify, otherwise it’s just another ‘I got screwed’ thread and teaches us nothing other than not to get out of bed in the morning. |
Did you see his feedback numbers? Did you communicate with him via phone (preferably) or email before agreeing to the deal? Did he have many or any posts on Audiogon?
I've even looked people up on LinkedIn.
Common sense things, but I wouldn't do a transaction like this without doing it.
Sorry for the hassle/loss you went through, but for anything over $100 I want to sell, I try to make it part of some trade in deal, or just hang on to it until the next dealer transaction. If a dealer won't offer a trade or at least to sell the item for me, it is tough for me to do business with them, but not impossible.
Good luck tracking this fraudster down. |
I had an issue that involved both PayPal and eBay. eBay chargedback my PayPal account from a transaction 5 years before! Claiming buyer never received. eBay had no records of anything regarding a dispute, yet they still debited my associated PayPal account. PayPal was no help. After multiple emails, escalations, etc, eBay gave me a credit against future eBay charges to the amount they debited my PayPal account. Didn't get my money back per say, but it was a wash. Soon after, eBay disassociated itself from PayPal. |
Is anyone really surprised that people with ill intent figured out how to scam people thru PayPal? It could be why they're always updating their user agreement policies that they say will affect you.
It's easier and cheaper for them to put their wagons in a circle than to seriously look into and update their verification policies. I'll continue to use them for my purchases as long as they are local or I've done business with others before.
All the best,
Nonoise |
You could consider yourself lucky that it was only a $500 item. I lost $1200 on an amp sold on audiogon. The seller sold the same item to 10 others here and never delivered the amp to anyone. This place has always had its share of scammers. You’ve been scammed. Sorry but these are the rules of the AG system but AG never to my knowledge gets involved with sales or purchases. I’ve been here since 1997 and I’ve never seen it. |
Create a bank Acct for use only for your web sales and purchases. It will be in same bank as your regular account. Moneyfrom sale goes into it and you immediately transfer to your regular Acct. PP only has authority to clawback money from your one Acct which is at zero balance. You have the money, scammer is out of luck. Complains to PP But you are in charge now. You decide whether to reimburse. If problem. Leave PP, OR OPEN ANOTHER NEW ACCT TO USE W THEM. They can’t get your goat if they don’t know where it’s tied. |
I have been told to not accept paypal and they don’t help the seller. And, this makes me want to never buy used or through Audiogon. I am shopping for speakers and everyone says buy used, but with risks like this I don’t think it is a good idea. OP, I am sorry for your loss. The world would be so much better if everyone was honest. |
PayPal is impossible to work with. I only shop through vendors I know and trust. I also only do local pick up on gear that I sell. |
I think that everything that needs to be said has been said about this.
I just would like to add that I would think nothing of opening a small claim in your local jurisdiction against PayPal. First off, just for the ballbreaking of it all. Even if they dismiss it, PayPal has to pay $1,500 to get somebody to stand in there that day. Second, when you provide everything you've said in the original post, that comes across real well on an arbitrator or a judge. You will win your 500 bucks back and unfortunately you'll have to work for it, but I don't like getting schtooped on an order that got stolen in Southeast Asia by an organization (PayPal) that's handling business and making decisions from Southeast Asia. Even if I lose money I like to see them lose.
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PS, PayPal does this to buyers as well. Had a Krell preamp, purchased here on A'gon, just not arrive at my doorstep while I was in the house. Despite the fact that the seller insured it and sent it 'signature only', UPS said they left it on the doorstep (again I was home and waiting for it) and despite getting police reports and neighbors video of my door that the police went over, PayPal still closed the case on me and I was out the preamp and the money.
Luckily, a little while later my PayPal MasterCard was kind enough to find in my favor and I was no longer out the money. |
In May I bought a turntable off of Audiogon. Paypal provided me with a USPS tracking number. A few days later the USPS tracker showed me it was delivered to my front door.
Nope.
Contacted my local post office they tell me it the tracking number must be wrong because it involved a delivery to a different address in my town.
Reached out to seller via Audiogon and Paypal. No response. File a complaint with Audiigon and Paypal. I note that while the seller lists his address as new York, New York, the package was shipped from South Carolina.
Audiogon says gee, sorry, contact Paypal, and then immediately sends me a email survey on how well a job did they do in responding to me. Well, not well at all to say the least.
Paypal denies my claim. Says the seller provided a legitimate tracking number. Go back to my post office. The postmaster looks things over and shows that the package was delivered to another address, but, here's the kicker, the package weighs 9 ounces.
Well guess what. The turntable weighs 22lbs!
Paypal throws in the towel and I get my money back.
It's a fairly creative scam, but yet another thing to watch out for when buying online.
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Wouldn't Paypal "Friends and Family" remove the risk of this claw-back scam? The "Friends and Family" option removes the fees - as well as access to the Paypal dispute process that these scammers rely upon. Win-Win. |
I think FF opens up a whole other can of worms. Wouldn’t it? |
Here is an elephant for the room…. In the old days, before PP even existed and we paid by postal money order, bank transfer or checks, agon didn’t try to prevent the buyer and seller from talking. What a concept! Talking when closing in on a deal. Probably the best, but still not perfect, way of gaining confidence in a deal. As a buyer, I much prefer to use a service that lets me talk to the seller. I say boo agon on this! |
Friends and Family.. LOL I could hear PP. BUT it was friends and family in Siberia. :-) |
Wouldn't Paypal "Friends and Family" remove the risk of this claw-back
scam? The "Friends and Family" option removes the fees - as well as
access to the Paypal dispute process that these scammers rely upon.
Win-Win. An advantage for the seller, but if you were a buyer, would you agree to Friends and Family with a stranger on the internet? |
