Auditioning Used Equipment - Am I crazy ?

I'll guess your from Green Bay

It’s not a question of any ad hoc dollar value, but rather an alchemy mix of :

- the dealer ad hoc assessment of a bona fide unlikelihood of a sale to you. If you don’t have a existing relationship with that dealer with (importantly) a personal prior sales history with them ,,,,, then a cold call audition requiring a new detailed kit set-up of high-end gear instead of simply starting up an existing system already on display: are regrettably far from a sure thing in numerous hi-end bricks and mortar stores.

yes…I’ve witnessed the same polite set-up audition brush-off based on personal experiences . I visited a store with an audio BFF who was asking to audition a five figure TT and matched cost TT cartridge still in the boxes.

Yep….subtle dealer adverse biases can present themselves in the context of a dealer pegging you as lacking meeting a fully informed buyer impression that will fork out the VISA afterwards in a happy ending . . Rather .,,,yes, …instead they just branded you and dismissed you as another “tire kicker” in their view. Sure …. it may sound most unfair , but it exists.

I do not know their return policy.  It isnt listed in the ad and when i click on RETURN POLICY on their website it just goes to the home page.

I have purchased from this dealer a year ago although I am sure they wouldn't recognize my name.  I have also referred several people to them.

@greenngoldcheesehead

Looks like you don’t yet have a “relationship” with the dealer if they don’t remember you.

Rightly or wrongly, it’s invariably predicated on personal interaction with cheerful purchases ( usual plural) incurred over time , AND supported as a function of the $$$$ you’ve cheerfully dropped .

TAKEAWAY: its their house , so it’s their “rules” kinda thing . Move on.

@akg_ca 

I'm definitely moving on.  It's hard to drop more coin with them or build a relationship when they aren't interested.  Thanks for your feedback.

@greenngoldcheesehead did you speak to anyone in person or just email? If the price is right I’d buy it and if it didn’t work out, I’d resell it. The price would have to be in the range where I could resell without losing more than a few hundred dollars. Hifi shark should give you historical pricing data.

The dealer has to move this inventory. He’s making a bet he can sell it quicker and for less trouble online. To make them believe otherwise you need to have a relationship with an actual salesperson who will vouch for you. 

I wouldn't take it too personally.  If he had it sitting on a shelf, that would be one thing, but boxed up, he's probably pretty busy and doesn't want to unbox it again.  He's pretty sure that it will sell at 50% off and he has a lot of other stuff to do.

@akg_ca John Rutan from Audioconnection (Verona NJ) knew every customer including cheap one like me. What type of "Relationship" is on yer mind pal?

You're not crazy for asking. But by the same token, they aren't crazy for saying "no".

I don’t blame you for wanting the audition and I wouldn’t buy the amp without having a chance to hear it in my system. On the other hand, it’s business, and the dealer has made a business decision that it’s not in his interest to unbox the amp and set it up for your audition. I’ve bought a lot of stuff from my dealer, and I’ve gotten to know him pretty well. I would be pretty Ticked off if he told me no to an audition in a similar situation. On the other hand, if it was a dealer that I did not have that kind of relationship with, I would respect his business decision, but I would just move onto the next thing. 

If a dealer will not audition the equipment he has for sale, then why bother having a brick and mortar store? The customer does not rely on the store to make a living, therefore, it is incumbent on the dealer to develop relationships. 

…….I always love those responses ; “ just buy it and if you don’t like just re-sell it “ . If you subscribe to that mentality then technically you are the third owner if that is disclosed and the seller is honest ; that does make a deal as far as the selling price . So with that attitude you could lose a lot of money on that deal. I don’t know about you but losing a couple of grand on a whim does not work with me . Not to mention the hassle of boxing it and paying to ship it to the next buyer . Have you looked at shipping costs lately ….. So, not a prudent option in my opinion.

So maybe it is already boxed and the dealer doesn’t want to go all through that just to demo it without any guarantee of sale as there are a lot of tire kickers. Also have you looked here as well as on US Audio Mart , there is a lot of used gear and we are entering the summer months. You can’t blame the dealer as most of them are purely transactional and don’t care .

I would move on if the dealer does at least try and work with you and as was previously noted ; find a dealer who will work with you and buy from them.

I think it would be reasonable for the dealer to charge a fee for the audition, which would count toward the purchase price if you decide to buy.  20 years ago I would have thought that to have been absurd, but times have changed 

The dealer may change their mind if the amp sits on his premise for months without a bite.  

@mahler123 I actually wouldn't have a problem doing that depending on the fee. The only reason I purchased a pair of speakers from them a year ago was because the salesperson spent some time (30 min) with me evaluating amps for a different rig.

@testpilot hit the nail on the head.  Some people complain that the hobby is losing interest.  Maybe they are driving customers to Magnolia and on-line?  One of their competitive advantages is brick and mortar.  

Maybe you could have started your conversation with the dealer with something like this, "I bought a pair of XYZ speakers from you a while back and am now looking for and amp that would pair well with them. I see you have a used ABC amp listed on line in my price range and am wondering how that would work for me and if there's a possibility I could listen to the pairing?" Now you've presented yourself as an interested customer and not just a tire-kicker. If the dealer does not respond in kind, move on.

Your best bet it to buy the amplifier with the understanding that you can either:

A) Get store credit if you return it

B) Agree to an audition fee that will be applied to purchase if you buy it

This way both you and the dealer have skin in the game and he is guaranteed either a sale of something or a fee for his trouble. You get to audition the amp and not risk paying the 10K for something that just doesn't work for you. Win/Win.

I cannot believe the stupidity of this dealer. Follow me here, they're in Wisconsin and sell esoteric audiophile grade gear. Their available geographic market is halfway to Chicago to the south, halfway to Minneapolis to the west, and north to the border. How many qualifed customers do they have access to, a hundred, give or take? Now a qualifed  local walks in looking to buy a $10K piece of gear. Anybody with any sense recognizes this as an opportunity to build a relationship with a new customer. I hope the dealer reads this and realizes that this was an epic fail.

OP you are not crazy! Just look elsewhere you will find something even better and in 6 months the dealer will still have that amp sitting in its box

We don't know enough about the particular circumstances to say whether or not the dealer was behaving reasonably.  Most dealers have used gear as trade-ins on a purchase of new gear.  Taking in trade-ins is a BIG favor to customer and the dealing with the trade-in is a big PITA and often of marginal profitability.  One cannot expect the dealer to be quite as helpful with a used sale as they would be with a new sale.  If the trade-in model is current and of high value, it might be an easy sale, in which case, there is little incentive to unbox and set it up for any one of many prospective customers.  The amount of effort to make the sale is a business judgment based on the dealer's business practices and the particular circumstance.  The dealer would have to be concerned with tire kickers coming by to get a free "audition" of something not normally available in the area.

Ozzy62 makes a good point.  If both the buyer and seller have some skin in the game, there is less concern by the seller that he is just being used.  You should offer to pay a refundable fee to audition the amp.  

OP - In response to "I do not know their return policy.  It isn't listed in the ad and when I click on RETURN POLICY on their website it just goes to the home page."

Caveat Emptor: Ethical 'bricks-n-mortar' stores have well defined and published transaction policies.  Ask for theirs!  

A.) If their policies ARE NOT published, shop elsewhere - period (If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.).  Weather buying New or Used, work with shops that are transparent and that you can trust...

B.) If their policies ARE published, make a screen-capture of them (just in case...), and those policies include a 30-Day trial, use your credit card for the purchase.  If something goes sideways, your credit card company will want to see those policies before they can provide your buyer-protection.

Finally, +1 - Testpliot: "it is incumbent on the dealer to develop relationships." 

Dealers are glad to audition equipment when you are paying full retail and they have a huge markup.  May or may not be the same on used equipment.

Jerry

Over the past couple of years I've purchased quite a bit of gear (deep 5 figures) from "The Music Room". In doing so, I've build a very good relationship and my regular sales person as well as those who answer the phone if I call the main number all no me well. As an ecommerce business, their level of service suits me well. They have a  reasonable return policy in that for 30 days and if an item is returned not due to a defect, they charge a 5% fee which is deducted from a refund. Considering that they have to retest, recertify, and restock the item, I consider that to be quite fair. It's not as good as having a local brick an mortar store to touch and carry way from, but I'm satisfied and will continue doing business as long as nothing changes.

...and I think the most constructive thing the OP can do is direct the dealer's attention to this thread.  Just for educational purposes.

I don't think the dealer should've said yes instead of no but he could've done your a favour. He didn't.

What was the probability of you buying that 10K piece ?

Here's the problem for the dealer.   What happens if the amp is damaged in shipping?  What happens if you choose to return it and it is damaged when it is returned?  What  happens if you scratch it or otherwise mar it and then return it?  

Who files the insurance claim and how long does it take to get paid?  If the dealer files an insurance claim, does his insurance premiums go up?  

If you really need to hear the amp, why don't you go pay the dealer a visit and listen?

Here's the problem for the dealer.   What happens if the amp is damaged in shipping?  What happens if you choose to return it and it is damaged when it is returned?  What  happens if you scratch it or otherwise mar it and then return it?  

@russbutton 

What I got out of the OP is that the dealer wouldn't even set it up at his (the dealer's) place of business?

But for all the gear that dealers have sent me for audition or that I have taken home to audition I had to provide a credit card for with the "you broke it/you bought it" understanding.

This experience I am going to quickly relate is a lot lower $ than yours, but back in ’99 there was a local dealer getting out of 2 ch stereo and getting more into HT and he had an old heavily altered (to the point it would have been hard to sell) SLP90 he wanted to get rid of. I was getting out of HT and way more into 2 ch stereo and I wanted to upgrade my HT digital preamp, so I asked the dealer if I could take his pre home and he let me. I loved it, so I told the dealer I’d buy it but I would want to have Cary undo some of the mods so would he (the dealer) take less than asking? He said he would.

Maybe less than a year later, to show off some of his new HT stuff, he had an open house with food and booze . . . I knew he had a pair of those little 15 wpc Cary SET 300B monoblocks for sale and I was thinking I might be interested in the SET experience, so I showed up at the open house and asked if I could take them home. He said no. Which I thought was bad business as I had spent money there before and helped him clkear inventory he didn’t want, but, whatever.

@ntpc4 while I'm a cheesehead from the football mecca, I reside outside of that area now.  To your point, I don't think i would have received the same response from a WI or Chicago dealer.  Chicago and Milwaukee have alot of fantastic audiophile stores which has got to be very competitive.

@russbutton , I was trying to pay the dealer a visit.  since it was used, i emailed them to see if i could audition in at their facility which is 2 hrs one way from my house.

@immatthewj the fact the unit was $10k is what blew my mind.  This isnt a mCIntosh where you can go anywhere to hear it.  Who the heck drops $10k on a used product with extremely limited distribution / demand  that they've never heard besides a flipper ?  I get the points some are making that the dealer may not make as much on used - but then do you want $10k of cash sitting out there for 4 months ?  No.  You want to churn and burn.  Makes absolutely no sense.

I don't blame you,I have been burned a few times with used equipment,and at a 10k asking price,I don't blame you. 

@immatthewj the fact the unit was $10k is what blew my mind.  This isnt a mCIntosh where you can go anywhere to hear it.  Who the heck drops $10k on a used product with extremely limited distribution / demand  that they've never heard besides a flipper ?  I get the points some are making that the dealer may not make as much on used - but then do you want $10k of cash sitting out there for 4 months ?  No.  You want to churn and burn.  Makes absolutely no sense.

I am in 100% agreement with you on that.

Who the heck drops $10k on a used product with extremely limited distribution / demand  that they've never heard besides a flipper ? 

Someone who has heard the item elsewhere and knows he wants it.

@greenngoldcheesehead Hasn’t anyone ever lied to you before? The dealer didn’t want to audition the amp for you had other reasons than just being snotty. He may have a new amp to sell you with a higher profit margin. Or he may be holding it for another customer who is willing to take it without audition. Or... think of any number of selfish excuses. Clearly your business isn’t important to him.

Keep in mind that being an hi-end audio dealer is an inherently shady way to make a living. You're buying and selling extremely expensive products to an insanely nit-picky crowd. No shortage of neurotic customers demanding only the very best and changing their minds at the last minute. Selling to this market involves a whole lot of BS and nonsense in pitching their products.

I have no advice to give to anyone who buys gear at your prices. I would *NEVER* drop that kind of loot on an amp, even if I had it to spend. Some of the very most extraordinary sound I’ve ever heard in an audio presentation was a pair of properly set up Dutch & Dutch 8c loudspeakers. They retail at about $15k, but it’s THE WHOLE SYSTEM - amps, active crossover, DSP EQ, DAC... Just add a digital source and you’re done. No need for exotic loudspeaker cables, cable lifts, piles of hardware littering the end of your room. Just two speakers on stands, power cabling and hard ether cables going to them. Add your digital source and you have a complete audio system, clean as can be.

I recommend you reach out to Dutch & Dutch and arrange an audition. They’ll bring it out to the house! Guaranteed to blow your mind.

I’ll bet you are attracted because the price is below market. My guess is the dealer took this unit in for trade and may have more in it than he’d like. He boxed it and priced it low to sell on the net and wants no hassle. Figures the brand will sell itself at the right price. Right or wrong, he’s there. Move on. This amp and dealer aren’t the only fish in the sea. For that money lot’s of great amps for sale.

I think it's unreasonable not to demo anything they have in the store, boxed up or not.  Unless it's already sold. If the OP wasn't trying to take it home, that's just not great business. At least the OP didn't actually make the drive! 

There certainly are a lot of online sales within our community, and much of it is $10K and above. To the seller, online was better for him, as he already had it packed. I wonder if that packed amp was sent to him as a trade in and he just left it in the box. All policies on returns, refunds, credits, trial periods etc., all need to be available to the customer...oh, and the insurance liability of shipping damage (very time consuming, ime).  

I'm sorry, I'm headed to work and I didn't read the entire thread yet, but my opinion on auditioning is pretty consistent with what I've done throughout the years when dealing with pieces that ship,  as opposed to stuff that's nearby that I can audition in person. It's only fair that you offer something in return for the favor. The dealer doesn't know you or if you are a tire kicker or Dreamer looking to waste your time- you need to put something on the line like a restocking fee and cover the freight and insurance. He doesn't know if you're going to burn this thing up or hook it up to some homemade wacko component you have. That's a 10 grand item he needs to sell.

Clearly, russbutton never ran a business...

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2701797

There’s no conspiracy theory about why someone’s just not going to send you, a stranger, an expensive piece of used equipment for a whole bunch of reasonable and sensible reasons. When requesting this generous offer the would be buyer describes, did he offer anything other than his 'Maybe I'll buy it, maybe I won't' prospective purchase in terms of real world assurance or ernest intention? A schmuck who just sends out a big piece of equipment to any schmuck who dangles his maybe I'll purchase it promise is a schmuck that won't be in business long.

@gents .  My request was to audition the equipment at the dealer where the unit is already located.  I am not asking for an in home audition.  I would be driving 2 hrs each way to be able to audition and purchase.  The dealer has refused to remove the unit from its box and hook up 3 cables, spend 15 minutes listening to it and put it back in the box for a $10k sale.

I’m sure you wrote that somewhere and I just missed it, that’s ridiculously ridiculous and even more reason to dig deep and send a little email reiterating your position on the proposed audition and just enjoy the satisfaction of telling him to f*ck himself- in those words. Furthermore, share that story online within his Google reviews and any place else you can write it because it absolutely deserves a little spotlight. That’s a genuine creep and how he ended up being a ’respected dealer’, who the hell knows?  There are a lot of easily pleased nincompoops in every Hobby.

Buy it or don't. This applies to other luxury items. There is not always a test drive, some labored deliberation or audition process. If it's fairly priced, someone that knows what it is and what the value is will buy it.

In other words, you're not the right buyer for this piece and that's ok.

@russbutton , the D&Ds are a great suggestion. I am seriously considering them. Thank you !

It’s only $10k. Does not include customer service apparently. 

Did you ask him how he thought it would compare to what you have and what you are looking to improve with a switch? If you are just in the auditioning stage, he isn't in business to audition that brand. If it a great deal, he probably thinks it will sell easily for the price he is asking and the service he offers with the sale for that price is not the same as a brand he carries.

Even if it is a great deal, how do you know you will like it better than what you have? I have spoken to The Music Room when I saw a "great deal" on some close out speakers and since I knew about their try and return policy, I gave them a call. 

After a quick conversation asking what I had and what I was looking for, he said I might not like these as much. I appreciated the honesty. I would have had to pay shipping charges which would have probably been $500 if I didn't keep them. I  passed. Once I did buy a tonearm with the 100% money back guarantee because the dealer knew it was a dramatic improvement and I would like it. He as local so there was no shipping inbvolved but he did set up the arm with my existing cartridge so there was some investment on his part. One of the best improvements I ever made.