Are your record surfaces as silent as CDs?

Some yes and some no!

Yes...

Nope, clicks and pops. Most new pressings, except for boutique labels, are poor. Digital has given me zero tolerance for surface noise..... 

I had noise issues with vinyl back in the 70, 80, 90s. I was using a Linn Sondek, with an SME tonearm and a mid-level moving magnet cartridge along with a Conrad Johnson PV1 pre-amp. Noise was so discouraging, I embraced CD/SACD with an Esoteric P3 D3 combo w/ separate clock. I decided to go back to vinyl around 2005. I purchased Brinkmann LaGrange with a Breuer tonearm. I use a ZYX 4D cartridge and a ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre-amp. I use a Clearaudio double matrix for cleaning. Vinyl is noise free with this hookup and it is wonderful. I would not have believed it if I did not experience it for the last 20 years. Nirvana!

@tomcy6 You may not have noticed, but digital streaming is now making up about 85% of record company revenues. That may have something to do with the decline of cd sales.

CD sales in the US market actually had an uptick in 22 and 23 compared to several years ago.  Especially considering outside of the U.S. the CD format is still the most popular format for listening to music. In the UK, CDs were the most popular format in 2023.

Strangely enough, digital downloads are on the decline while compared to physical sales of CDs and Vinyl being up in 2023.

For those of us who collect physical music as a hobby, we are clearly a shrinking source of  revenue for the music industry. 

@atmasphere 

Thanks for the explanation.

“I'm very used to playing entire LP sides without any ticks or pops and I don't clean my records other than using a carbon fiber dust brush before each play”

I have the same experience, except that I occasionally use a cleaning machine which improves the SQ.

Technically, vinyl can only give you about 60db S/N exclusive of the pre-amp (although different vinyls these days provide somewhat better that that)

@pcolvin Actually LP surfaces can be quite a bit lower noise than that. Acoustic Sounds found that the rush of LP surfaces was mostly caused by vibration in the pressing machines so they applied damping and were able to reduce the noise floor a good 10-15 dB. Projects we did (I ran an LP mastering operation for about 20 years) through their plant (QRP) certainly suggest this is so: when we got the run done, the surfaces were so quiet the electronics were the noise floor so we were wondering if the system was running and then music erupted from the speakers.

When I got my new analog setup (please refer to my profile if interested) I was very surprised that surface noise virtually disappeared from most of my records.  It’s like I was listening to CDs.  I’m wondering if others have had that same experience.with their setup.

@rvpiano  Phono sections can generate ticks and pops due to a poor high frequency overload margin. This can happen with either high output MM cartridges or LOMC cartridges. Tube preamps tend to have a much higher input overload character owing to the much higher voltages used in a tube phono section, so they are more likely to be immune to ultrasonic and RF noise generated by the cartridge.

The way this works is the cartridge has an inductance which is in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable. An electrical resonance ensues that can be 20dB (in the case of MM cartridges) or 30dB (in the case of LOMC cartridges) higher, about 10 to about 38x higher than the cartridge signal itself. If the phono section input gets overloaded it will create a tick, pop or hiss. Once this problem is fixed (which is a design issue) the LP surface will seem to have gotten a lot quieter. 

I'm very used to playing entire LP sides without any ticks or pops and I don't clean my records other than using a carbon fiber dust brush before each play.

From the studies I've done in this area (I design and manufacture preamps and amps) I'm convinced that anyone playing LPs in the 1970s or 80s grew up with phono sections that had this problem (the majority of phono sections included in common amps and receivers from Japan for example). My hypothesis is that designers at the time only thought that they needed enough gain and the right EQ, not taking into account the implication of an inductive source in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable.

An LP can never be as quiet as a CD in terms of low frequency noise, because RBCDs have a brick wall filter at around 20Hz; there is nothing below that frequency on a CD.  Which is one reason I DON"T like CDs. That emphatic dead silent and abrupt cut-off is unnatural and robs the bass frequencies of a sense of realism. Harry Pearson called it lack of "downward dynamic range", and he was correct.

I have found some older first-pressing vinyl albums that are dead quiet in  my collection. Especially after a good cleaning. Taking care of them for decades helps and the fact that I was doing a lot of digital listening compared to vinyl the last 15yrs meant nominal wear and tear too. However, I have new vinyl pressings, freshly bought and cleaned, that don't sound nearly as quiet as some older pressings which means I might need to put the newer vinyl through the record cleaner once more to remove the factory crud. 

Surprisingly, I have a few records that look visually ok and expect them to play noisy and with a good cleaning they are quieter than I would have expected. 

Some of my LP’s play all the way through without any perceptive noise.  
Of course my ears aren’t want they used to be.

If you can’t tolerate surface noise, then analog will be a frustrating experience.  It is interesting how effective cleaning and different types of gear will minimize it

It's all high res streaming for me. play any song anytime with a Wide and deep sound stage.. I tried going back, clicks pops and cleaning dust off of a stylus isn't for me

tomcy6

2,526 posts

03-13-2024 at 12:00pm 

@benanders, You may not have noticed, but digital streaming is now making up about 85% of record company revenues. That may have something to do with the decline of cd sales.

Hi @tomcy6 not sure if your comment means to imply something about what I mentioned - I think it’d be hard for someone with even the most fleeting concept of music playback to not be aware of CD’s (or any other physical medium for music playback) vs. digital sales / streaming, IOW: “Yeah, duh.” 😉

My comment was about the survival mode both aforementioned physical media (vinyl and CD’s) have been in, and how between the two, medium-specific features of vinyl predispose it to persist longer than CD’s, despite the latter’s superiority in the noise department.

One thing seems surer than not, these days: the common sentiment for nifty kit, tangible conventional sleeves and so forth seems like it’ll keep vinyl in production longer than “silent” CD’s, which at least on a sociological level is pretty interesting.
End morning coffee diatribes.

@benanders, You may not have noticed, but digital streaming is now making up about 85% of record company revenues. That may have something to do with the decline of cd sales.

Vinyl will never, ever, ever be as quiet as CD’s.

However, vinyl can easily sound as quiet as CD’s given sufficient QC (no need for 180 / 200 gram for this) and proper use.

Biggest factors should be playback volume and whether or not you grew up listening to vinyl. If you or your family played vinyl in the 60s / 70s / 80s, it assuredly predisposes many (most?) folks to be more tolerant of the background noise by virtue of early impressions; some clearly even like it as part of a listening experience. And the more recent generations that should eschew vinyl for hearing all that subtle (or not-so-subtle) background from the medium that they didn’t likely experience early in life, well, they’ve rediscovered it as a trendy adolescent or YA hobby.

So seems like pouring heavy plastic discs housed in paper boxes to be shipped around the world… during an era when music is made digitally and comes nearly free of physical space requirements… is around for a while longer 😜

My subconscious is fine with vinyl background sound on older recordings. Tape hiss no prob so long as it’s within reason. But new digitally mastered stuff? My personal take on any sense of reason is not within the bounds of accepting that noise - it’s not a natural part of the process anymore and the limitations of the medium (vinyl) are an unnecessary constraint to digital music’s attributes. Best vinyl setups on earth won’t change that, but if ya like it and the results, all good! I’ve kept my vinyl setup modest because, in all honesty, the percent increase on return I’ve heard from more “serious” front-end setups is negligible. Spin a well-produced ol’ 45rpm on a reasonable setup and it’ll likely outperform the same via 33.3 (sorry, that looked too digital…) 33 1/3rpm on a better front end. But I digress from noise.

I agree with one of the posts above that, in my anecdotal experience, new vinyl can be noisier than old stuff. QC just ain’t what it used to be, maybe, especially with all the color-collectible stuff being cranked out. 🎼 “Snap-Crackle-Pop, Rice Krispies Frisbees!”

One thing seems surer than not, these days: the common sentiment for nifty kit, tangible conventional sleeves and so forth seems like it’ll keep vinyl in production longer than “silent” CD’s, which at least on a sociological level is pretty interesting. 
End morning coffee diatribes.

Mostly yes.  But my cleaning is a bit "over-the-top", though obviously it doesn't repair physical damage.  Fortunately that's not a common occurrence for me.  But I'm happy with it so nothing else really matters.  😃

For removal of any visible/invisible dust particles before play, I use the Furutech Destat III followed by a 'rocket blower' (as used when working with negatives in the darkroom). Nothing except a stylus touches the record after it has been cleaned.

Yes, they are for the most part.

I have to agree with @rauliruegas in that with good TT, Tonearm, cartridge & Phono preamp, vinyl is nearly as quiet as digital. That is the norm. However, dust, seems to get in places which would seem impossible. I use anti-static sleeves & put them 90 degrees opposite of the cover opening, which is on the side. Somehow, dust STILL seems to get into the sleeve & on the record. This is what necessitates the use of an anti static brush for the album before play. Near perfect playback until one tiny particle cause an occasional tick. its not every album but sometimes. maybe I need to turn the sleeve 180 degrees. 

It depends on what you smoke or been smokin'

My very first and indelible recollection of being introduced to the Compact Disc from my Teen's in 1981 is to be seen in the Link.

Obviously somebody thought the TV Footage was worth finding and making accessible on Youtube.  

Shortly after nearly all my friends were abandoning their Vinyl and using CD, as it was to be in their Cars as well as their HiFi Systems.

The Irony is in my main audio system, a means to play a CD was not added until 2017.  

Nearly for this man. 
I have purchase a few used recordings that need deep cleaning, bit in some cases the damage is done. 

Dear @rvpiano  : " surprised that surface noise virtually disappeared " or almost.

Today that's not surprised but a " normal " situation  but not exactly as CD that's noiseless. LP is near but not there yet.

Regads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@rtrlover,

I have never treated my records.  Just recently I bought a Humminguru to clean some of them, but most of them were already quiet.  The Humminguru improved the sound of them though.  
I’m amazed as everyone that my records are so quiet.

+1 jasonbourne71. The Shibata and other line contact types ride deeper in the record grooves and are thus typically quieter than elliptical and especially conical types that ride higher in the groove. With a VPI record cleaner and my setup (Benz Ace with micro line stylus), I have not been able to match the quietness of digital with my records, though my rig is far from SOA now!

Also clean the stylus.  Just as important as cleaning you records.

Some LP's are quite quiet: old ones I have scrubbed, some new ones after I have cleaned factory gunk off/out of them however:

In the old days, prior to CDs, we had acquired the ability to filter out noise, clicks, pops, just hear what we wanted to. Like listening to the wife!

After noiseless CD, back to Vinyl, I had to re-acquire that ability. Younger friends, new to Vinyl, aware of the sound of streaming, I find have more difficulty with any LP noise, I try to give them the concept of not being bothered, but they seek 'perfect, noiseless' vinyl. A mistake IMO.

I may be influenced by having listened to vinyl records back when that was all there was. Compared to those days, my records are now silent. Compared to a CD, well probably very nearly so. But I'm a bit of an obsessive about cleaning records, and I think it pays.

Have you treated the records with anything?  I have albums that are over 40 years old that I treated with LAST (other threads have discussed this product) with excellent results.  It does quiet down the surface noise IMO. 

A vinyl collection is a must for me. I also have a couple thousand of them but 80% bought used, mostly back in the seventies. Used record stores were huge back then. I played some way too many times since then for some not to have some type of background noises in them. I catalog those as slightly noisy and they are not bothersome to me at all. Any that I list as little noisy, I usually look for a NM copy unless the price is unrealistic. If so I look for a new repress. All that to say that records do wear over time as it is the nature of the vinyl. In the end I am so glad to now have CDs and streaming to take the load off playing records over and over like I used to. My ratio is vinyl 10%, CDs 10%, streaming 80%. Meaning my vinyl collection will now remain nearly perfect for what's left of my life. I enjoy the quality of the 3 medias equally and use streaming the most to discover new music. Life in the audio world has never been better.

Similar to the analog vs digital approach to sound reproduction & generally, CD’s either work w/ virtually no surface noise or they don’t work at all & records always have some surface noise from the penny on the head shell department store model to the very best. Of course both can sound great depending on a multitude of factors but CD’s / digitally sourced music wins every time in this category. 
 

I have to admit that even though I have a really nice Basis turntable/ arm combo for many years & lots of records, since I got an Innuos server & Qobuz, I’ve gotten very lazy & don’t play much vinyl now. 

Technically, vinyl can only give you about 60db S/N exclusive of the pre-amp (although different vinyls these days provide somewhat better that that), and CDs at least 95db+, so CDs will always be quieter.  A properly designed phono pre will, itself, be quieter then the record, so you shouldn't  have any additive noise.

However, with a lot of the newer turntables these days having internal ADC/DAC systems to get you that USB connection that can't be switched out of the way to get your a direct out RCA feed, then your S/N is going to be based on the turntable's electronics, not the vinyl. 

Line contact styli have lower groove noise than elliptical/spherical. 

I think when you're listening to LPs surface noise comes with the territory and it's something you live with. Unless it's gravel road extreme our mind largely tunes it out. An odd thing I found when I upgraded my cartridge is that it didn't seem to pick up dust the way my old budget model did. That one I had to clean off once per side of a record.

Most of my some 2000 records were bought new (some used) and very well taken care of. I listen mainly to classical music where volume levels vary and are often soft. Still very little if any surface noise.
I also clean them from time to time.

@jeffseight 

Feikert turntable, Origin Live Silver arm, Sutherland 20/20 Phon, Clearaudio Maestro cartridge. (Same results with Clearaudio Virtuoso cartridge.)

I upgraded all my analog gear during the pandemic and I found that upgrading my cartridge from an high output Dynavector MC to a Hana ML (microline tip) had the biggest impact on noise levels.  That and investing in an ultrasonic record cleaning machine.  😁

Well tell us what the "new System" consists of please!

I found that when I got my first high end turntable (some thirty years now) and cartridge the surface noice dropped so substantially that for all practical purposes it seemed to diappear. Most of my albums are in excellent condition although probably half of my 2,000 are used. I choose carefully and clean them.

So, with a bit of hesitation I generally agree. If I listen really closely I can find enough noise to tell a CD from vinyl. But if I am not listening for it, most of the time I can’t hear anything.

Just for fun, I just randomly selected an album and put it on. It is a Chet Baker album, about twenty five years old. I am listening at 75db with occasional peaks to 77. I would say I cannot hear any surface noise. Once every ten seconds or so there is a tiny… minuscule, barely audible tick… which I wouldn’t hear if I wasn’t listening for it.  I would guess either a piece of dust. 

Part of playing records is dealing with the various forms of noise that are always lurking.  It doesn’t just magically ever go away though some phono rigs are certainly more quite than others. 

Interestingly my old records seem to have generally much less surface noise compared to newer pressings. All after cleaning with Kirmuss. Has little to do with the hardware involved.

The reason CD's blew vinyl nearly off the face of the earth for many years was CD's promise of no noise, hiss, ticks, pops, no surface noise FOR LIFE.

Vinyl re-emerged, and our sophistication of the entire vinyl chain increased a great deal, it's a new world of vinyl, not everybody playing any old lp on any TT with any cartridge, misaligned .....

In a word, no.  I have a few LPs that are dead silent but it is the exception.  You can see my setup.  It all depends on the pressing and amount of play.  CDs have it on this question. IMHO.