ARE SUPER EXPENSIVE STREAMERS REALLY WORTH IT

Bits is bits.  Thatʻs the beauty of digital audio.  At the very lowest level of computing, all machines do is:

• copy data from one register to another
• compare data between two different registers
• add data from one register to another and write out the result.

Everything a computer does is a combination of those three operations.  The ability to copy data from one place to another with 100% accuracy is the hallmark of computing.

@russbutton  Sure, if you’re just sending a Microsoft Word document that’s not sensitive to noise, timing, etc. it’s perfectly fine.  But audio is very sensitive to these things, so you can hang your hat on that it’s just ones and zeros but most here who’ve migrated from basic computers to dedicated streamers know that’s absolutely not the case, and until you’ve heard a dedicated streamer your “opinion” is just insular ill informed. 

I don't know if the Ps Audio has that capability, best to ask those familiar with unit. I'd also question whether you are indeed operating in sync mode, I was just reading this, https://forum.psaudio.com/t/ps-audio-i2s-clock/30748 According to my reading the directstream is using it's clock.

@sns - can you point me to where in the settings I would be able to set my Directstream to async i2s?

Edit:  I should note that I once tried operating the Directstream without the MCLK, but it failed to lock.  This was as I was building an IanCanada streamer, so wanted to see if I could dispense with the MCLK since the Raspberry Pi does not have an output for it.

@wtyamamoto Incorrect information on I2S,all  the dacs with I2S input I'm aware off give you the choice of sync or async, in other words you have choice between the streamer/DDC clock or dac internal clock.

For those who hear differences amongst streamers, many also hear differences between music player apps. Check out all the Aurender and Innuos users who prefer their native apps vs Roon. I also hear differences in the various apps available to me in my custom build streamer, ie. Roon, Euphony Stylus, HQPlayer. Roon and HQPlayer both require much processor resources, this will affect sound quality.

And I don't think anyone here is saying dacs not important, they are absolutely important!

+1 @grislybutter 

I am always fascinated by these threads, same arguments and disagreements. You would think that with all the science and facts, it’s a black and white issue, either bits are just bits or bits can be "better" when the streamer is better.

IF .,. you have the rest of your WHOLE system components being suitably matched as high-end with inherent superior resolution performance capabilities ….. then … generally . “ Yes… it’s worth it”

BUT .,,,AND ITS A BIG “BUT’ .,if you don’t have the audio resolution components as your system , then it’s a very highly likely “ NO” …. It’s not worth the added  investment cuz gonna get you to audio OZ .

kairosman

Listening to TV either YouTube or Netflix movies using the P1’s internal DAC over HDMI ARC sounds fantastic even though it’s just 2 channel stereo ...

Both YT and Netflix use lossy compressed audio - comparable to mp3 files. Many people are happy with that level of fidelity.

The simple answer is yes, expensive streamers are worth it.  There were significant differences in SQ every time I moved up the Aurender line.  More detail, blacker backgrounds, wider/deeper staging, denser imaging.  These improvements are due in part to more sophisticated power supplies, isolation, and clocking systems.  Associated with the purchase of an expensive streamer you need to invest in a high quality USB or SPDIF and “digital” power cord to optimize the benefit.  I recommend at least $1k on the digital interconnect and power cord respectively.  

@ddafoe What we hear is analog. We never hear a digital signal. Only analog. So when we are hearing differences, itʻs always in the conversion of digital to analog, or something farther down the audio chain.

Whether Iʻm streaming from a computer or a branded streamer, itʻs still the same bits going down the wire.

Now I will confess that a computer can go kablooey like any other device. I had a PC that was barfing (special It tech term) from time to time, so I replaced it. The new one has been flawless. With digital, either it works or it doesnʻt. Itʻs not like where you can get an impedance mismatch between a preamp and power amp and the worst thing is that it doesnʻt sound right. Either a computer is transferring bits correctly or itʻs broken.

@russbutton, have you ever tried different streamers to see if you hear a difference in your system?   

Like you, I also believe bits are bits, but I also have tried a couple streamers and other tweaks (LPS vs switching power supplies, fiber vs copper, etc.) and ultimately use my ears to decide if I can detect a difference.

Sometimes the more expensive piece wins and I keep it, sometimes the cheaper piece wins and I sell the expensive piece.   I'm certainly glad I didn't let that belief prevent me from experimenting with my digital front end and ultimately improving it for at least my ears & system without spending a fortune to do it.  e.g. I no longer use a custom Pi based SPDIF streamer for my primary system even though I was extremely happy with it.  I have found something that sounds much better to me, even though I believe the Pi was passing the bits along just fine...

A couple of years ago, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to compare Linn’s Next Generation DSM/3 streamer (2020/21 variant) and Klimax Organik Exaktbox DACs (2021) with previous models, the Klimax DSM/1 (2014) and Klimax Katalyst Exaktbox (2017).

What I found was that both the new streamer and DAC brought about significant improvements. However, they did different things.

The new DAC gave a smoother refined sound that was more pleasing to listen to. The new streamer gave the impression of being more rhythmic and musical.

In my opinion, the improvement from the new streamer was more fundamental and worthwhile. I should say that not everybody agreed with my view and some preferred the DAC.

@nubiann I'm with the crowd here that says DAC is far more important--clockwise, power supply-wise, galvanic isolation wise--everything-wise.  If you use Roon, Roon's own streamer the Nucleus or Nucleus + is excellent.

@russbutton +1

@soix Bits is bits.  Thatʻs the beauty of digital audio.  At the very lowest level of computing, all machines do is:

• copy data from one register to another
• compare data between two different registers
• add data from one register to another and write out the result.

Everything a computer does is a combination of those three operations.  The ability to copy data from one place to another with 100% accuracy is the hallmark of computing.  If you canʻt trust a machine to do that, you should be very, very worried about your bank account.

When you stream music data from Qoboz, or whoever your source is, those bits are copied at least a dozen times between devices, routers, etc, over wired and fibre links (none of which are "Audiophile grade"), each and every time with 100% accuracy.  Once those bits get to your streamer, they get copied and moved around 3 or 4 times more before they go down the wire to your DAC or such.   And then you tell me that somehow, at the very last few inches of wire, the data transfer is NOT 100% accurate?

 

@soix ​​​​​​ @russbutton

You are both correct.

Streamers are nothing but computers, and often not very good ones (think Raspberry Pi 4 or 5) unless you’re in the mood for something like a $31,000 Taiko Extreme which, besides being an exquisite piece of kit, packs serious computing horsepower.

To @soix ’s point, quality power supplies, galvanic isolation, clocks, etc. do make a difference, and they should all be part of any serious audio PC build. The aforementioned Lucas Audio does just that for you, but by the time you’re done with him you’ll have spent near-Taiko money. You can also build it yourself; if so, expect to spend in the neighborhood of $4-5k on quality components.

But those of you who once used a mac mini or some such in your digital chain and then come here to denigrate PC network streamers on the basis of your one (admittedly dismal) experience, it’s like saying you drove a Nissan Leaf back in 2010 and it sucked, therefore all electric cars suck. Teslas don’t suck, neither do Lucids, and a $50 Raspberry Pi build will better a mac in terms of sound quality.

So I think it's time to give PC streamers their due. Done properly, they will rival the SQ of anything Aurender or Innuos make, plus they will give you unmatched software flexibility, upgradeability, and power.

All of your various streamers are just generic PC boards running a custom front end app on top of Linux.  Theyʻre just computers dedicated to running that one app.

@russbutton  No, that’s an oversimplification and there’s absolutely more to it than that.  Power supplies, galvanic isolation, clocks, etc. can all make significant improvements over a basic computer as most people here have found.  At least try a good streamer before you just dismiss them out of hand. 

All of your various streamers are just generic PC boards running a custom front end app on top of Linux.  Theyʻre just computers dedicated to running that one app.

But go ahead and drop $5k on something youʻll be trying to unload for $1800 in 3 years.  

My media manager is a miniPC ($130) I got from Amazon, with 128G drive (for Linux) and 8G memory.  I have an external USB drive ($100) containing the music data.  It runs Ubuntu Linux (free) and JRiver ($30).

When I furst upgraded my DAC from a Lumin X-1 to Lampi  Pacific with a Synoogy 8tb and Lumin U2 I was terribly disappointed in the Lampi.  I felt the sound of the X-1 was really close to the Pacific.  After researching many Servers/Streamers, I came across Lucas Audio, a small company out of Poland.  I talked to Lucas Domansky numerous times and he created a server for me.  

It was night and day better once I plugged the Lucas Audio server into my system.  Without a doubt, the money I paid for the Lucas Audio server was worth every penny/dollar that I paid.  I have since acquired the Lampi Horizon and the Aries Cerat Kassandra DAC's but I will never replace my Lucas Audio Server.  

They are both extremely important, but in my case, it is 60% Server and 40% DAC.

No one has really convincingly explained this.

And even after decades of research and millions of dollars spent nobody can explain how turtles can use Earth's magnetic fields to return to the beach they were born, after swimming thousands of miles away from it.

But they do. 

I was running Roon on a Mac mini using USB output to my Wavlet II DAC. I narrowed my dedicated streamer choices down to a HiFi Rose RS130 vs Aurender n200 and for me chose the HiFI Rose because it looks much better esthetically and supports Roon.  Noticeable sound improvement but not major. I’m still happy with my decision and can direct stream from Spotify now.

All SPDIF protocols and i2s utilize the clock of the streamer.  USB (asynchronous, which most DACs these days are) clocks/reclocks the signal internally.

SPDIF MIGHT be better if the streamer has great clock crystals/circuits, and asynchronous USB MIGHT be better if the streamer source has a poor clock.

Most modern DACs can handle a pretty high amount of jitter, and there's debate as to how much is too much.

Most modern DACs also have great USB inputs (most using XMOS chips; however, there is debate about how much "noise" USB circuits introduce to the signal and/or generate internally.

I have PERSONALLY not found a streamer that sounds better than my Raspberry Pi (now 5) running Moode Audio running USB to either my PS Directstream or my Okto DAC8, and that includes running my dedicated mini PC USB through my Matrix SPDIF 2 to the Directstream via i2s.  I THINK it sounds better than my Node 130 that I got because I wanted to try the "famous" Bluesound interface.

But I'm 62, and whereas I used to be able to hear a mosquito across the room, I can now only hear it if it's hovering right next to my head.

I guess I will just continue to ask dumb questions until I arrive at the right answers

@nubiann 

First, sorry about the above post. It's just that all-caps grate.

Second, your questions are thoughtful and on point imo. They are far less dumb than many of the answers you've been getting, if I may.

Third, since you ask, here is the truth about digital streamers.

- Buy a $15000 streamer if you can't afford a $30000 one. It doesn't really matter which one because at that price level they are guaranteed to enchant (they wouldn't cost that much if they weren't amazing - think about that for a second) and they are all created by geniuses, or should I say magicians - after all, anyone who can turn a botched Linux distro running on a lowly ARM Cortex into Gold has to be a little bit of one.

- Pick a team: USB or I2S (Teams SPDIF and AES are the audio equivalent of the Liechtenstein National Football Team). Acquire enough random knowledge about oven clocks, DDCs and HDMI pinouts to effectively defend your team in forum posts. In-depth knowledge of com and network protocols is entirely superfluous and will fall on deaf ears. Ditto references to the studio / mastering world, though it solved those issues eons ago with Dante, Ravenna, AES67 et al.

- Absolutely invest at least $1000+ in a USB / I2S cable. Digital bits are extremely small and wily. They easily escape lesser cables, causing annoying jitter. High-end digital cables effectively capture jitter and turn it into harmless vapor, resulting in the inky darkness of a 360 degree soundstage from which you can easily pick the exact location of Diana Krall's lips. You read it here first!

@soix my digital chain right now in my main system is as follows:

Router > fiber optic > LHY SW-6 switch > fiber optic > Lumin L2 switch & music file server > fiber optic > Lumin P1 > Nordost Heimdall II USB cable > LHY UIP USB isolator > Nordost Heimdall II USB cable > Lampizator Baltic V4 or Weiss DAC204 powered by a Ferrum Hypsos LPS

All source devices including router are powered by internal or external LPS except the L2 which has an internal switch mode power supply. All these devices are plugged into a Puritan PSM156 power filter.

Sometimes I swap in a Teac VRDS-701t CD transport and clock it externally using a LHY OCK-2 clock powered by an LHY LPS.

The LHY clock is also used to synch the LHY switch and USB isolator.

BTW the P1’s internal DAC is very good, as good as the Weiss just slightly warmer. Listening to TV either YouTube or Netflix movies using the P1’s internal DAC over HDMI ARC sounds fantastic even though it’s just 2 channel stereo.

@kennyc so yes I agree with your comment. I am in the same boat, I am hearing all types of noise coming out of my pc as I am using it for streaming.
my chain is Hifiman Susvara connected to Viva Solista with speaker taps and sometimes with a zysonix converter box, Fidelice Precision Dac, Custom built pc running windows 11 with tidal, Qobuz, roon, and audirvana.
the issue I am having is whenever I’m listening to music with any streaming service if I am scrolling on a website, opening applications, running games, all of these generate noise I can clearly hear pretty loud, like static, am/fm noise static. If I were to add a streamer to the same caliber as the rest of my gear, which streamer should be added?

I believe most would consider my system high resolving. It's about $150K at retail of C-J class A, Wilson, Rega, Shunyata, WW Platinum cables and dCS stuff.  That said the digital connections are all ethernet, as dCS recommends.  The "streamer" is a Roon Nucleus. The dCS unit also has its own streamer built in and there's virtually no difference in SQ vs. the Roon Nucleus. Connection quality tends to be influenced by whatever the  equipment designer prefers.  I understand dCS invented the USB connection and does the highest quality build but still prefers ethernet.. which sounds best on their gear with less expensive non shielded cables.  What connection and source does your DAC designer like best?

ARE SUPER EXPENSIVE STREAMERS REALLY WORTH IT

THEY ARE IF YOU BELIEVE THEY ARE

What’s the deal with all caps titles?

2nd Vote for fiber optic.
I originally streamed from a shared switch via 1gb copper. 
Then I put the streaming onto its own vlan (Win client-NAS-NUC) which helped make the sound more consistent/focused.
Added a Thunderbolt 10Gb NIC (SonnetTech) to the Nuc and switch (Ubiquiti Aggregator). Definitely improved hi-res playback from the NAS.
Next uptgrade was putting in a fiber coverter (Startech & LPS) to the streamer. Note that the LPS was almost as important as the fiber. This wasn't as big a bang for the buck as I thought it would be. Probably because of the vlan & 10gb headroom.
Last improvment was a direct connect via fiber from my Roon (Ubuntu) NUC to the streamer. Definitely recommend getting that last hop dedicated.
Currently evaluating using a dac cable instead of fiber + transceivers. It eliminates two signal conversions. Jury is out on that one. Getting into minimal returns on performance now....
Also looking at using a lightweight Linux (Alpine?) for Roon for cleaner processing at source. Basically a custom Rock but I get to control the networking.
Another consideration is using sdn routing/vlan for each interface on the Nuc vs a shared bridge for all Nics. That's a bit more rarified and a WiP. Would expect minimal return.

This question can’t be answered without a look at the software and the particular streaming configuration you are using. You might as well ask whether a Porsche or a pickup are better...if you’re hauling landscaping supplies the answer is different than if you’re showing up to the high school reunion.

If you are using the streamer to pull music from the Internet or your network (or internal storage) and decompress it, add DSP, and output directly to a DAC, then you need a fair amount of processing which means more power consumption which means you need someone to engineer that to the electrically quietest possible which means some $$$. At least theoretically albeit many DACs will reject the vast majority of any possible noise anyway.

If you are using a server->streamer topology where the server does all the processing and sends a decoded, post-DSP signal to a dumb device that only takes the signal in by network and outputs via USB or other digital, then what you want is a very quiet low power device and those aren’t nearly as expensive to build. Someone who knows computers could build a Pi, a linux device, etc. that will perform quite well.

Secondarily some of the more expensive boxes may have more featured software and/or be compatible with more streaming services and protocols.

It depends on how much you know what you are doing. If you’re really good with building IP-computing devices and networking, you can achieve the same as the expensive stuff much more cheaply. But you do need the knowledge.

Nope there isn't a cheap work around.... or there wouldn't be all those expensive streamers on the market. 

I find this logic fascinating. 

I say yes, based on my experience comparing several DACs and music servers in my system. That being said, that are no absolutes in audio. 

With respect to I/O interfaces, it is the component quality that takes precedence; an example is the Grimm streamer some posters here have mentioned, it is fantastic and uses AES/EBU instead of I2S. I will end by saying the most noticeable sound improvement in my system came from going from ethernet to fiber optic.

@kairosman  Well said.  What other components are you using in your streaming/fiber optic setup?

I just had a I2S streamer bake-off between an PS AirlLens and a Matrix Element S. Neither are either cheap or expensive.

The dac is a Holo May KTE. The Holo May has two I2S inputs which was handy for testing.

Turned off the May's own reclocking PLL circuit so the streamer's clocks were used.

Tested with both Tubulus Libentus and Phasure I2S cables.

Regardless of configuration or what was playing, I (+ discerning wife) thought the Element had the best sound and certainly the best soundstage.

This opinion persisted even when the PLL clocking in the Holo was turned back on again. That was a great surprise.

The main difference between these two streamers? The AirLens uses a VCXO clock while the Element is using TCXO clocks.

I remember talking to the designer of the Musica Capella III and he said that he worked very hard to get the clocking right in his design. I had a Capella for several years and couldn't agree more - perhaps that's what sets the streamers apart.

I don't know if USB or I2S is better, it really comes down to your system. There are lots of Holo owners who prefer USB. I've tested both from time to time and have always ended up on I2S.

@nubiann +1 with those posting that each component of the entire digital chain from router to DAC matters. Just pause for a moment and really think about that and all the analogous instances where that logic from an engineering perspective is incontrovertably true - it has most definitely been true with respect to building out my digital source chain. With respect to I/O interfaces, it is the component quality that takes precedence; an example is the Grimm streamer some posters here have mentioned, it is fantastic and uses AES/EBU instead of I2S. I will end by saying the most noticeable sound improvement in my system came from going from ethernet to fiber optic.

What is a  super expensive streamer? 

And yes,  some super expensive streamers are worth it !

@newton_john Never tell a physicist he can't quantify something.

However, did you see any numbers?  I didn't try to quantify anyting.  I just used a simple-to-understand method to describe the RELATIVE performance if these items.  Unfortunately, it wasn't simple enough.

Jerry

Absolutely not. They are simple ARM computers. And trust me, there are no error in code execution, linear power supply or not. Just don’t use SPDIF. Use quality DAC which properly buffers USB and shielded cables. No, not $$$ ones.

@carlsbad2 You say that "a low to mid level streamer achieves a higher percentage of high level performance than a low to mid level DAC does."

Good luck trying to apply a quantitative concept like percentage to the qualitative differences between hifi components.

Nope, they are not. Just ask science. Next question. 

Both the streamer and DAC make a difference in my experience.   I moved from a Bluesound Node N130 streamer to an Innuos Zen Mk3 and it sounded better.  I Tried 10 different DACs and chose the Holo Audio Cyan 2.  It sounded the best to me with my system.  Suggest trying a different streamer from a dealer that will let you try it out and listen to see if it makes a difference for you.  I connect the Zen streamer to the DAC with a USB C cable and it sounds great.  Again experiment with different connections and see if it makes a difference for you.  Everyone has their own opinion, preferences and budget.  Trust your ears.  

From my experience once a good DAC is implemented the streamer has very little to do with it as long as the signal is good. Most good quality DAC’s now can overcome any issues with timing/data issues/ noise, ect.

This mirrors my experience. The DAC is far more critical than the streamer.

Currently I am using a WiiM Ultra streamer (to external DAC). It perhaps the best bang-for-buck product I’ve encountered in this hobby. The functionality and OS is first rate.

The Eversolo A8 was also really good, but its OS wasn’t as well sorted as WiiM’s is currently.

OP, bear in mind that confirmation bias is a real phenomenon and if a listener expects an improvement, that’s often what they will perceive. And to an extent, one’s perception is their reality. 

@jasonbourne71 all streamers are the same. All DACs are indistinguishable from each other. Jitter is no longer an issue.

I have made an observation that i2S connection is mostly favored by Chinese companies who sell DACs and DDCs. I'm sure someone will point out a few non-Chinese companies (e.g. PS Audio), but by and large other manufacturers don't seem to care much for exposing an i2S interface. If it solves so many problems, why haven't all major DAC manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon?

Here's some food for thought ...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/study-is-i%C2%B2s-interface-better-for-dacs-than-s-pdif-or-usb.7105/

@jasonbourne71 

In a controlled blind test an inexpensive streamer cannot be distinguished from an expensive one. This is reality. To believe otherwise is to be delusional.

You seem to have a tendency to make such authoritative and black and white statements. Can you please provide a link to the said blind test study? Also, what streamers have you tried in your system and what kind of blind testing procedures did you follow? Thank you.

Hopefully pvaulke60 the Varese will be at axpona. For 350k it should perform.

I have listened to the $350K, give or take, dCS Varese and it is a marvel.  I can't say it is worth all that money, but my lord.  It was fantastic.  It's a stack with multiple components including a User Interface, Master Clock, two Mono DACs, and the Core. Stands tall, but the music it produces is unlike any DAC/Streamer setup I have ever heard.  Amazing. Check it out if it comes to a audio dealer near you.

it's probably very much like voting for a candidate in an election. Once you bought what he is selling, you would argue to great lengths how true everything s/he says 

Hi, 

I have gone through several streamers and can confirm that super expensive streamers DO make a difference.

Now I'm enjoying a Ideon Absolute Streamer Meta and it is far superior to my previous Aurender Top of the line.

Regarding I2S connection, There is no advantage in my experience. The connector is superior but there is no real advance to stream music.

Honestly I've not heard any improvement in sound using I2S connectivity. I, using Denafrips Arcas and Pontus. Have tried HDMI I2S from Arcas to Pontus, also USB and SPDIF and haven't heard improvements. Have also tried connecting Roon on my NUC via USB directly to Pontus, there is slight difference in clarity. But not significant. I'd say get a good DAC, save on streamer and get some decent cables (whichever connection you chhose, but not Amazon Basic) and you should be good.

Whenever one purchases something super expensive and decides to keep it, that pretty much indicates it was deemed "worth it". Unless of course one is simply stuck with the purchase.

Now what happens a year or two later? Keep or sell for a loss? That’s the interesting part.

If you can sell without taking a loss....G-d Bless! How often does that really happen though for things bought new?

With SPDIF and I2S, the source controls the master clock. With asynchronous USB, the destination controls the master clock. As such, the quality of result with SPDIF and I2S is primarily dictated by the source implementation and vice versa with USB. This distinction is important.

It has been demonstrated through independent, objective testing (Golden Sound, L7 Audio, etc.) and supported by followup listening that DACs that provide USB implementation that feature galvanic isolation and high quality clocks (e.g. Holo Audio) effectively eliminate noise and any jitter falls well below the audible threshold. This holds constant even from noisy sources, with no observable benefit from either switching to I2S, and inserting an expensive external DDC into the USB connection actually degraded performance.

A streamer brings the convenience of a single box that also includes an internal DAC. Alternatively, using an external DAC with a high level of USB performance opens the door to streaming from a computer based platform like HQPlayer ($300 USD), which enables high upsampling rates, PCM->DSD conversion, and a wealth of filters and modulators that offer measurable and audible advantages, all of which that lie well beyond the computing power of a streamer.

So there seems to be a lot of discussion about I2S vs usb here. I have my own experience which favors I2S but not going to extrapolate this is universal for all setups. I2S does have inherent advantages in that it is native signal path in dacs, it separates data from clock, a lone possible disadvantage is an external clock may be used vs internal dac clock, the theoretically better placement of clock is closest to signal path. So I have the choice to use the external OXCO clock in my Gaia DDC vs internal clocks in my dacs, both Femto, in other words I can sync or unsync clocks, in both cases the external OXCO clock in Gaia provides better sound quality than local clocks (this using 1/2M Tubulus Ximius I2S cable).

So for those who claim none of this is an inherent advantage of I2S, is it an inherent advantage to send signal on detour through usb boards of who knows what quality, only then to convert back to I2S? Is it an advantage to require the dac to separate clock from data?

Not saying usb can't sound good, I used it for at least a decade without complaint, only recently did I discover the I2S setup beat it. And over that decade I've used all manner of streamers with various usb implementation, tweaks and isolation of usb, very nice usb cables, dacs with some very nice usb boards including custom implementations. I2S belongs in the category of less is more which some seem to espouse, point being why do needless conversions.Not going to argue this point as I sometimes experience more is more such as optical conversion.

All in all, I'd take the battle of I2S vs usb on a case by case basis, optimize both and report back, actual experience counts for more than second hand repetition of some other person's experience.