Are integrated amps technically better than separates?

NO NEVER!!

For amps probably up to around 100/150 watts/channel RMS, integrated ones are just as good as separate units as far as sound quality is concerned and definitely better in terms of physical space occupation.

For devices above those ratings, and especially for class A devices, power supplies become the dominant factor and therefore separate units are usually a bit better.

But for most part for the average listener, typically integrated units are easier to set up and they need less space & wiring.

99.9% of people will not notice the difference.  The other 0.1 % will pretend they hear the difference :-)

I really love my Music Fidelity Dual Mono Integrated. I always wanted this type of British sound and level. Separates I have owned never came close to this smooth incredible power and sound. I could only afford it second hand but got it on Audiogon so was super nice. It was fun in the old days to put together Hafler and PS audio separates but that is how it all started. It is incredible how good sounding the amps are now. Love this forum! 

I remember owning a Luxman integrated back in the day. Sounded way ahead of the competition, and beautiful to look at!

Define "back in the day", please. When are you talking about, archison?

It’s so interesting that folks think they need a high quality power chord and expensive interconnects. Never mind that just inside the wall is the cheapest copper lines the contractor could buy. It’s laughable. Just inside your loudspeaker is usually a thin generic cable connection between the crossover and drivers. 
You need expensive cables because it makes you feel better. 

Led Zeppelin had high quality power chords. 😬

It’s so interesting that folks think they need a high quality power chord and expensive interconnects. Never mind that just inside the wall is the cheapest copper lines the contractor could buy.

If you are suggesting that a power cord does not obey Ohm's Law... Ohm's Law isn't like a speed limit; it can't be broken. By comparison, the solid core wiring in the wall is fairly high performance in terms of voltage drops along its length compared to a power cord, but it is illegal to use Romex or the like for power cords. The effect of the power cord is measurable and with relatively unsophisticated instruments. So the onus is on you to explain why they can't have an effect.

I've seen power cords rob a 140 watt amp of 40 watts of its output power. If you are suggesting that is not audible as well... sheesh! Its pretty laughable.

@erniesch, finally someone with a bit of sense.  Thank you....

AT MOST, a 12 to 13 gauge wire is enough for 99% of almost all home amplifiers/subwoofers etc, up to approx 200Watts RMS/channel.  Its ohmic resistance will be no more than 0.02 ohms for a 10 ft cable and will allow EASILY up to 7 amps (and that is very conservative, max is 30) giving approximately 850 watts.  And the skin effect will be negligible until about 5300Hz.  Since mains is at 60 Hz, there is essentially no skin effect.  Here is the chart:

https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

And for monster amplifiers like 1000 watts/channel, you can always have a dedicated 50 amp cooker/range cable installed but think... how many times in your life do you crank up that volume to that level for long periods of listening ?

erniesch4 posts05-19-2020 8:54pm

It’s so interesting that folks think they need a high quality power chord and expensive interconnects. Never mind that just inside the wall is the cheapest copper lines the contractor could buy. It’s laughable. Just inside your loudspeaker is usually a thin generic cable connection between the crossover and drivers.
You need expensive cables because it makes you feel better.

Expensive no, adequate yes.. Feel better, never..

PC and interconnects can cost a few bucks and a little time too.

It can almost make up for some of the inadequacies, you pointed out..

Glad you noticed why every little bit helps....Your learning..

Took a while for me too...

Regards

Not the quality of the cable in the walls argument yet again. I dont know why it is such a stretch to understand that any improvement made before or after the AC outlet helps. Improve what you can where you can. 

Also why in the world would the power output of an amplifier or integrated have anything to do with this argument. Am I missing something?

Hi @atmasphere ,

Each amplification stage, capacitor and cable add distortions and noise.

All those gain stages are in an integrated amp too. Usually though you have a greater chance of lower noise with separates since crosstalk and intermodulations from the other channel won’t exist.

But pream has to have output stage that drives interconnect and relatively low impedance (compared to tube input inside amp) of power amplifier input. The interstage driver in integrated amplifier is much easy to design and doesn’t have to have a feedback and output transformer or big value capacitor or sophisticated DC cancelling circuit.

But pream has to have output stage that drives interconnect and relatively low impedance (compared to tube input inside amp) of power amplifier input. The interstage driver in integrated amplifier is much easy to design and doesn’t have to have a feedback and output transformer or big value capacitor or sophisticated DC cancelling circuit.

The first statement is true. The second needs more explanation; as far as I can see its false. Regarding the first statement, over the years I've found that a lot of the improvements I've been able to make in our gear have related to power supplies. Arguably that's one of the trickier things that goes on in an integrated amp; IME it outweighs many of the other circuit topography issues! I totally get the connectivity issue- that is an advantage. But in most cases, its not *enough* of an advantage.

Agree with “erniesch", his statement is 100% correct: "Never mind that just inside the wall is the cheapest copper lines the contractor could buy.” Last two feet power cable 10 or 18 AWG difference is drop in the ocean, if power lines inside house are bad.  

@audition__audio: if your power supply, AC outlet before/after including,  is bad, comparing separates to integrated is kind of lower improvements pareto thing. 

Agree with “erniesch", his statement is 100% correct: "Never mind that just inside the wall is the cheapest copper lines the contractor could buy.” Last two feet power cable 10 or 18 AWG difference is drop in the ocean, if power lines inside house are bad.  

OK- if that is true you have to explain how I could measure a voltage drop across a power cord and hear the difference in my system- when my house at the time still had knob and tube wiring.


All things electrical have to obey Ohm's Law and its a simple fact that solid core copper does better then multistranded wire, which is why its used in building wiring. Keep also in mind that in most houses there is a wiring code and while there is cheap wire, it has to meet that code.


Now the measurements I made point to the idea that the more current draw, the greater the voltage drop across the power cord; this suggests that its more of a problem with equipment that has a higher current draw and far less of an issue with equipment that does not. Ohm's Law again.

But one other area that should be mentioned is high frequency response of the power cord- another thing that solid core does really well. This issue here is that in most equipment there is a power transformer, rectifiers and filter caps. The rectifiers can only turn on (commutate) when the cap voltage is less than that from the transformer; most of the time this means that conduction only occurs at the very top of the AC waveform. So the current draw has to happen over a fairly short period of time, even less than a millisecond. If the bandwidth does not exist in the cable, the power supply will not charge properly- it will round the charging pulse. Again, Ohm's Law.


None of this says the cable has to be expensive. It does say that the cable has to have the bandwidth and the current capacity, and good enough connections at either end such that those ends don't warm up over time- if they do, you know the connections are robbing power from the system.


This is all measurable and audible. In the case of an amplifier simply measure the full power output, the output impedance and the distortion. You'll find that it varies with the input voltage. This should be totally non-controversial; I think the only reason it is is because there tends to be a knee-jerk reaction to the idea that a power cord can make a difference, associated with a failure to cause one's hand to move and actually make the measurement!

A lot of interesting takes on the question.  I am in the camp that separates are superior in most cases.  It will also depend on your budget.  There are now some super priced integrated $20k - $40k+ that I am sure would satisfy most hard core audiophiles but most of those companies still produce more expensive and superior separates.  I would be very happy with the new Vinnie Rossi SE integrated even though he admits his separates are a hair better.

 If money is no issue separates can often reach a higher level of performance (think Vinnie Rossi L2 + Pass monoblocs) provided ancillaries are top notch.  But some integrated (Ypsilon Phaeton, Bakoon amp13r) are absolutely splendid and costs -30/-50% of the equivalent separates solution delivering better value for money and a more elegant setup.  

I will give my 2 cents on this matter being involved in this mad science that we all call a "hobby" ! As previously stated everything comes with a price point ....the more your willing to spend the better your system will sound ! If your budget is unlimited separates will always win in the end because of flexibility ! Saying that; to me it comes to what you listen too and what speakers you are going to base your system on . Over the years I have used Musical Fidelity { back then called British Fidelity ) A1 ( 20 watts of glorious Class A power) , Forte separates ,both Class A & a monster 200 watt beast ,McCormack Micro series complete system even using their Micro amps as 2 mono's , Audible Illusion system and Assorted Conrad Johnson products including their CAV 50 integrated ! Each system mixing and matching sounded great depending on my speaker choice . After over 30 years of being able to purchase these used components has come to this : synergy within the same product line is real & not a advertisement gimmick ! To these old ears but together they always sound better ! After all on this BS from me I have settled for just 2 set-ups that I rotate about every 6 months. The CJ CAV 50 ( also very high (WAF) because of ease of use and the Audible Illusion's ! Speakers used , also rotated , Vandersteen 1 C's , Totem Arro's , Thiel '1.5 's and ERA 5 's . What i really like about the CAV 50 is the sound that only tubes can create and if the 45 watts of power is not enough you can bypass and use it as a preamp ! Only drawback is that there is no remote version available . Highly recommended !

I have owned separates (PS Audio BHK Amp and pre Amp). I now own a Luxman L509 integrated Amp.  Can I / could I tell the difference? Not a chance.  They both sound great.  Not convinced most people could differentiate between the two.  Another thing that needs to be mentioned is the volume I listen to music.  Unlike a visit to an audio store where we crank up the volume on equipment we are auditioning, I don't listen to recordings at anywhere near that level.  So that alone makes it tough to evaluate the performance of one's equipment - separates or integrated.  At the end of the day, I determined that the place to get the most bang for the listening buck are speakers.  

When you know what you want, and you want the best, a specialist is what you need.

he first statement is true. The second needs more explanation; as far as I can see its false. Regarding the first statement, over the years I've found that a lot of the improvements I've been able to make in our gear have related to power supplies. Arguably that's one of the trickier things that goes on in an integrated amp; IME it outweighs many of the other circuit topography issues! I totally get the connectivity issue- that is an advantage. But in most cases, its not *enough* of an advantage.

I have to agree.  In our components we have large power supplies.  Why, they sound better.  We repair all types of equipment and as already stated, much of the upgrades are in the power supply section.  I wish that could be accomplished differently but so far, we have not heard something that can replace a well designed and built power supply.  Out DAC has a 30 pound power supply.

Is an integrated better or an improvement over separates?  Unequivocally no.  However, the more important factor that may be missed in this query is: Have you found a synergistic combination with an integrated that is very magical and satisfying?  That answer is apparently yes.  Should you go out and spend a large amount of money trying to improve upon what you currently have with separates (chasing after a small improvement)?    Probably not but that is your call.
 

Have 2 high quality systems. One has separates - 2 mono amps, preamp - that list for $20k.
Other has $7k integrated. Sound quality is about the same, although they sound different. However, the room sonic characteristics dominate the difference in SQ between the two systems.
For me, the integrated is obviously more cost effective.

Not a good thing to put your sensitive preamp circuitry in close proximity to the power supplies for both the preamp and power amp.

One of my  preamps has a separate power supply that is connected to the rest of the circuitry by  special umbilical line - they recommend separating the two by at least a shelf or two in a normal stereo rack.  The power supply also functions to provide power to other components.

Certainly an over the top approach, but that reflects thinking at that time on the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cXCFfec5mI

The power amp it plugs into is also pretty extreme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE5nlQ9LPYY

In my Audire amps, with its two 500 watt transformers, 8 26,000 mf caps, multiple outputs and big heat sinks, there is no room for similar, but smaller preamp parts.  Not to mention (What a phrase!) the magnetic emanations that would require major shielding between the big amp parts and the preampe.g.  I am not enthralled by 1000 watts of transformers, and 208,000 mf of magnetic/electrical generating devices next to my moving coil preamp.  Why don't we just add a tuner, too. and a CD player, then carry it around on our shoulders?

I would like to share my PC experience, however, I will not mention the "high end/boutique" brands used.

The amps I use are Krell KAS dual chassis monoblocs.  These, have a built in volt meter on the bottom chassis, which show/read power coming in directly from the wall outlet. Changing/swapping out PCs has a direct effect on what the incoming volts are and thus what is illustrated on the built in meter.  Unless the amps are biased to any one PC, the volt reading changes in regards to the PC used...and so does the sound quality.

Best,
Jose 

@cleeds, Naim Audio’s NAP-300 is built in two chassis, power supply separate from main unit. Also Musical Fidelity has done them, probably many more over the years. So not a new or novel approach. Is it “better”, don’t know, but I suppose it meets the designers intention, and maybe ears?

Granted, the Naim is a power amplifier and not an integrated, but.....

This is the first post I have ever made on Audiogon, and I am not a tweaker whatsoever (I just changed speakers after 25 years when a great deal for KEFs became available). I look long term and buy used or new depending on the item. I have found the most difference in the phono section by far (arm, cartridge/phono stage and table in that order). I didn't realize how much improvement could be gotten from a separate phono stage (or head amp as we used to call them). 

My integrated amp which is phenomenal (Plinius 8200MKII), has a built in phono stage which I thought was equal to the other parts, and until I got a MC cartridge (VanDenHul Special One) I never thought about it. When I got back into thinking about the hardware in the past year or so, after upgrading my Rega P5's arm to the one on the new P8 (the dealer sucked me down a rabbit hole) and finally upgrading the table itself, someone mentioned that although the Plinius phono section is good, I could get a big improvement with relatively few dollars spent (although relatively is a relative term). 

Since I upgraded each part in incremental steps, the arm improvement blew me away, and although the table sounded better it was a very subtle improvement thought it has a couple nice features. I just got a Sutherland Insight phono stage a few weeks ago (lucky to find one used) and once again I was blown away. It was based on the recommendation of several dealers. I would have bought a new one if I didn't find the used one. The guy who sold it to me set it up for me based on the VHD specs. You can see I am not a tweaker.

Bottom line in this discussion, make sure to separate the phono stage first, then worry about the integrated/separates argument. I lean towards integrated for space and value, but like I said, I am not a tweaker or tube guy. For the hardware hobbyist - have fun with tubes, separates, mono blocks, sub woofers, etc. For music lovers who like to keep it simple and mostly listen to music while doing other things KISS.

I would like to know why an integrated needs a separate power supply for the preamp and amp sections. My DAC puts out 4.2 v balanced which is more than enough to run an amp to full power. The pre and first stage amp sections are running at the same voltages. Isn’t my integrated pre section pretty much acting as a selector and volume control then?  I am using a Pass Int 250 which supposedly has a minimal preamp internally.
Enlighten me

I believe either topology can be as good as the other, it's just down to the price you want to pay for the functionality you need... personally I prefer separates. My preamp has inputs for MC (transformer) and MM cartridges, four other analogue inputs, a 64dB attenuator with 128 steps and four individually powered stereo pair outputs. That gives me the functionality I want with little compromise to quality. Actually, I think the volume control is a weak point in many amplifiers and a well implemented stepped attenuator can make a real difference on its own.

Ralph,

Would you fill in some of the details of what you know about power cords?  You've told us that a power cord that's not up to the job is going to hurt the sound, but what are the basic requirements for an adequate power cord?  One that will not degrade the sound in a system the average 'Goner might own.  

What impedance is adequate?  Should it be solid or stranded wire?  What gauge should it be?  What about dielectric materials?  As your system becomes more sophisticated, do you need a power cord to do more that deliver electricity?

I would greatly appreciate it if you can give us any guidelines or refer to where we can find answers to these questions.  This is one of the more confusing topics in audio for me, and one that seems to cause the most heated arguments.

I was not insinuating anyone's enjoyment of music is secondary. Just saying that it's not necessary to be a hardware hobbyist/tweaker to have a great sounding system to enjoy music.

Music enjoyment (while appreciating great sound - openness, detail, bass, clarity) is a separate area of interest to hardware, and people can make their own choice whether to have one or two hobbies. 

There are some that have a primary interest in hardware, some music and some both. Everyone is free to choose and spend accordingly. Personally, I have roughly equal investment in hardware versus software.

ASR Emitter II Exclusive Is an integrated with three external power supplies that sounds rather good.
Maybe an exception to the generalization that separates sound better than integrateds.

Great info. Sounds like the key with separates is high quality interconnects. 

aberyclark

Absolutely.  Happy Listening!

I've used separates for years, right down to phono preamps and MC step up transformers.

I sold hi-end gear during college to pay the bills working at a local tweak shop. As you might imagine, I received professional training from the different reps who called on us.

The pitch for separates of course was flexibility to customize the sound and to reduce the possibility of signal "smear" from everything being on the same chassis with the resulting improvement in sound.

At the end of the day, practical matters of available space, budget, etc come into play.

Buy what you can afford and still manage to enjoy it!

You know, if you think about it, a well designed integrated amp will have a perfectly matched preamp to the internal power amp, taking the guess work out of matching separates. In addition if the preamp section is passive so it will take up less space in a single cabinet thus giving more room for the power amp section and its large power supply.
Here is one disadvantage of an integrated amp that I can think of:One, you can't try different combinations of separate preamps or power amps (tube or solid state) unless the integrated amp has pre-ins or pre-outs
But an integrated is a space-saver if this is important to your set-up and I have heard some very good sounding units.

The limitation with integrated amps used to be noise levels cramming more circuits into close proximity with power transformers, etc.

That limitation seems to have been largely resolved these days. Integrated amps seem able to deliver more juice while maintaining dead quiet noise levels. The all digital Class D Bel Canto C5i I have in my second system is a good example. Even a $90 Fosi 40 watt Class D integrated amp with Bluetooth (about the size of a pack of cigarettes)I use in a third system is dead quiet.

Would you fill in some of the details of what you know about power cords? You've told us that a power cord that's not up to the job is going to hurt the sound, but what are the basic requirements for an adequate power cord? One that will not degrade the sound in a system the average 'Goner might own.  

As a general rule of thumb I go with heat. If the cord makes any heat at all, in the middle or on either end after several hours of operation, then its not up to the task of working with the component its powering. At that point a heavier power cord can be very nice. The connections on either end can be important- if they heat up it won't matter much about how good the cord itself is as the voltage drops on the connectors (hence the heat) will overpower that.


I have a cheap solid state amp in my bedroom system that makes about 5 watts per channel on a good day. It does not need much of a power cord. But with a 60watt tube amp you can notice differences (and measure differences too) quite easily. So there is a scale issue here due to Ohm's Law; consequently what will work varies from product to product. 

Thanks Ralph.  That's very helpful.

It's very hard for the owner of separates to say an integrated is better, and vise a versa (SP?) I believe, so you have to factor that into how may grains of salt you take responses with. That being said, I have chosen a class D integrated, the best I could afford at the time, and a separate phone section. I am quite happy. But that's just me.

Hopefully you've spent a larger portion of your overall investment in tonearm/cartridge and table and your phono section you mentioned is a good one.

I think you've got the power section down as long as it can push your speakers effortlessly.

I compared the Luxman 509x integrated vs the Luxman c900u and m900u. The separates were so much better. Now maybe I should have compared with the Luxman c700u and m700u to make it an apples-to-apples comparison. 

I compared the Hegel 360 with the top end Hegel separates and the separates were better.

Another thing I like about separates is that they can fit better into a room. The room is a huge part of the sound we get. I like short speaker wire and long XLR interconnects. I also like to keep the space between the speakers clear of a rack, just the amp(s) residing there.

I compared the Luxman 509x integrated vs the Luxman c900u and m900u.

Oh for peete's sake.  You compared a $9,500 integrated to a combination that runs ~ $40k. How does this tell you anything?

Well Pete, the Luxman integrated is all that Luxman have in there SS stable, so it seemed like the appropriate comparison. I did say that the Luxman 700 series maybe more appropriate comparison for the 509x. I was comparing units from within the same brand as with the Hegel comparison I made. What value does comparing from different manufactures make. I do not see the value of your logic comparing a similarly priced integrated from another brand with the Luxman or Hegel separates. The house sound is what I am comparing.

The 900 series is actually $15K each MSRP so using the new math the youngsters are doing these days makes it $30K.

I was going to buy the c900u preamp but I got something that was better for me at $3K. I guess it must not be as good since it is cheaper. This preamp is going to be paired with the Luxman m900u amp or something a little bit higher in cost (must be better then).

t I got something that was better for me at $3K. I guess it must not be as good since it is cheaper. This preamp is going to be paired with the Luxman m900u amp or something a little bit higher in cost (must be better then).

I've never supported the idea that cost alone ensured quality or desirability, in fact I've posted many a times that this was short sighted, so you are barking up the wrong poster's tree here.

However, I also think that if we are going to compare maybe something reasonably equivalent would be a better way to go.  An example for this might be the CJ CAV 50 vs. the PV 10 and a similar powered small tube amp.

Maybe not the OP's intent, but I'd phrase the question like this: If you have $10K to spend, will you find better performance with integradeds or separates? 

Here, if we are going reasonably close to cost, perhaps comparing the top Luxman pre and amp to the D'Agostino amp is a closer match?

https://www.whathifi.com/dan-dagostino/momentum-integrated-amplifier/review

While I haven't heard the integrated, I've heard the amps and they are really good, so I think this would be closer.

And this gets me back to the kind of original point, while I believe it is possible to design an integrated and pre that are as good or better than their separates, with no boundaries the comparisons become kind of meaningless.

"Oh, I once heard a pre/amp that sounded a lot better than X integrated" doesn't prove anything really. Of course, neither does cost.

Best,

E