I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
Geoff, I couldn't agree more. Value is what we're talking about, as perceived by the consumer, and that is often intangible and highly variable.
I too went down the expensive cables/IC rabbit hole for a few years (Synergistic, Tara, Audioquest, Van Den Hul, Harmonic Technologies and several others) and then found Mapleshade and Anti Cables, the latter brand being what I currently enjoy and for the past two years, have felt zero inclination to "improve."
inna1,970 posts06-20-2016 2:50pmI would propose - the winner takes it all.
It's VERY GOOD phrase!
I praise ones who can convince someone to give rather than stealing. Often they're called scammers, but to me, they only deserve respect for being smarter than others.
High-end home audio industry is BIG part of such methods to convince to spend fortune on something that maybe worth not more than 10...15% of actual sale price. It's an established mechanism that made casual wealthy consumers to spend fortune without knowing what they actually have to spend to achieve same level of performance. Moreover, it makes many go nuts on constant upgrades, mods, tweaks.
If Geofkait has a customers lineup buying his products and making money or maybe fortune, it only deserves respect.
High-end home audio industry is BIG part of such methods to convince to spend fortune on something that maybe worth not more than 10...15% of actual sale price. It's an established mechanism that made casual wealthy consumers to spend fortune without knowing what they actually have to spend to achieve same level of performance. Moreover, it makes many go nuts on constant upgrades, mods, tweaks.
What you need, BIG BROTHER to protect you? Can't handle life in the BIG city? Ever heard of personal responsibility?
If you can't handle freedom, move to another country with more regulations and ONE choice.
I understand your points. I guess I was presuming if a person was going to take the step of using a wire with superior properties (capacitance, inductance et. al.) they would take the steps to engineer the system holistically.
Taking things one point at a time....
Wattsperchannel, thanks for the comprehensive and, if I may say so, the quite intelligent response to my previous post. You make a number of good points. I would just note the following:
1)While I completely agree with the desirability of "engineering the system holistically," and I share your belief in the desirability of "taking sound engineering steps to improve the performance of one aspect of a system" while also taking steps to correct (rather than compensate for) issues that improvement might reveal elsewhere in the system, identifying the root cause (or causes) of a sonic shortcoming can often be sufficiently difficult to make adhering to those philosophies problematical. To a greater or lesser degree, of course, depending on the particular issue and the particular audiophile.
That difficulty can also be compounded in many cases by unavailability of meaningful technical information about the products that are involved.
Finally, while as I say I completely agree with your philosophy, it’s interesting to consider that it would seem likely in a lot of situations to come into conflict with the "trust your ears" mantra that many and probably most high end audiophiles seem to subscribe to.
2)Regarding the mention of voltage drops in one of your prior posts, I would not discount the possibility that there may be a goodly number of circumstances in which a slightly larger voltage drop in the house wiring may produce results that are preferable to a slightly smaller voltage drop. As you are probably aware USA voltages can range from 114V to 126V and still be in spec, and as confirmed in a number of past threads here numbers in the area of 124 volts or so are not at all uncommon. And presumably equipment used in the USA and other 120V countries has most often been designed to perform best and to reach optimal internal temperatures at 120V. Although of course the sensitivity of different components to variations in that voltage can be expected to differ greatly. I would imagine that power amps, which in most cases do not incorporate internal voltage regulation (at least for their power stage), would be among those components that would tend to be most affected by that variation.
In any event, thanks again for your well stated response, which as I say I am in essential agreement with.
High-end
home audio industry is BIG part of such methods to convince to spend
fortune on something that maybe worth not more than 10...15% of actual
sale price.
I don't understand. You mean it's up to you to establish whether something is worth the sale price, rather than the actual customer who is spending his own money?
That seems like a cumbersome arrangement! And what makes you qualified to be the final arbiter of value?
....... identifying the root cause (or causes) of a sonic shortcoming can often be sufficiently difficult to make adhering to those philosophies problematical. To a greater or lesser degree, of course, depending on the particular issue and the particular audiophile.
That difficulty can also be compounded in many cases by unavailability of meaningful technical information about the products that are involved.
I agree completely. Complex root cause analysis, particularly when void of relevant third party data, is often even more complex than the initial design, but that can also be the fun part. What drives me crazy is when a component choice (like a cable for instance) is made without regard to best practices regarding system design and then a conclusion is drawn about that particular component in a vacuum.
It is like throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks and then blaming the spaghetti for bad behavior.
Finally, while as I say I completely agree with your philosophy, it’s interesting to consider that it would seem likely in a lot of situations to come into conflict with the "trust your ears" mantra that many and probably most high end audiophiles seem to subscribe to.
A conflict indeed. I say engineer first to give the system as a whole its best chance to excel, then trust your ears. Otherwise your ears can draw the wrong conclusion about any particular component if the system makeup is not logical (ergo my example about the coat hanger sounding better than the Nordost interconnect between components approaching a parity impedance match). This approach does NOT mean trust measurements over your ears. Use your brain first to give your ears the best view of the system (or component’s) true capability.
Regarding the mention of voltage drops in one of your prior posts, I would not discount the possibility that there may be a goodly number of circumstances in which a slightly larger voltage drop in the house wiring may produce results that are preferable to a slightly smaller voltage drop.
Interesting point that I will do some additional thinking about. I have typically not been concerned about anything beyond the +/- 5 volts my Torus automatically regulates. I run pretty consistently between 120 and 123 and my Soulution amps seem to behave well at this level but I definitely take your point.
Yes xti16 you are correct about Soulution/Raidho but you must be careful. If you use these types of instruments with properly designed isolated power, an MSB Diamond Dac V and a purpose built room you might start hearing differences in cables. This sort of thing can be hazardous to your health in these parts.
"I too went down the expensive cables/IC rabbit hole for a few years (Synergistic, Tara, Audioquest, Van Den Hul, Harmonic Technologies and several others) and then found Mapleshade and Anti Cables, the latter brand being what I currently enjoy and for the past two years, have felt zero inclination to "improve."
Precisely my point. There are plenty of affordable cables that will compete with and sound better than these over marketed expensive brands.
I love the Mapleshade Double Golden Helix Plus, still use my pair, but found in my main system that Transparent Super MM2 sounded much better...don't know that they sound 400% better though...
I felt it would be a tragic waste of my awesome Dali Speakers and Pass Amp to not get the best sounding cable I could afford, and that would have good resale value...I never thought about what the cables I auditioned cost to develop, manufacture, market and distribute...
One could take a look at their minimalist design and think they are overpriced as well for what they are.
But thing is I tried them specifically because of their unique minimalist approach (something clearly much different than the norm just by appearance) and have found them to sound best overall especially in regards to coherency top to bottom. So I have dropped a few hundred into these wires that appear to not be much different than your run of the mill 300ohm dipole wire antenna you paid $5 bucks or so for a t Radio Shack in years past and no longer have any real interest in others unless they provide something truly unique for a comparable price.
Well, they are single strand I believe and some come with beefed up connectors so I suppose that gotta cost something.
"Your negative or unsubstantial results actually don’t match what the majority of audiophiles experience with expensive cables, therefore your contention that expensive cables are not worth the price is unfounded." --Says you. I know plenty who have had the opposite experience. It's hard not to convince yourself that your mega expensive cables improved the sound of your system after spending so much money on fancy dressed copper wire. So your contention is unfounded.
"Two, your contention that blind tests reveal that all expensive cables are no better than cheap cables is either your own puffery and untrue or if you have been involved in a blind test, which BTW I actually doubt, that produced negative results I suggest it is simply an outlier and can be thrown out." --Not even sure how to even begin on this one. When did I ever claim blind tests reveal ALL expensive cables are no better than cheap cables? I said there is no correlation. Please look up the definition of correlation if I've confused you. So anything that goes against your belief is an "outlier"? You're full of yourself.
"Besides the tests you yourself (for some bizarre reason) linked earlier on this thread actually show the opposite - they show that there ARE significant differences among cables as heard by almost ALL listeners in the test." --When did I ever claim there is no difference in sound among cables? I have repeatedly stated that I hear differences in cables. This shows you're blinded by your own biases and not EVEN LISTENING to what I have been saying. First, I thought you're just a troll. Now I know you're not even a good troll.
Perhaps you should just take your own advice. "This is just a hobby." You're losing your cool.
"However, if you wish to use room treatments as the alternative to expensive wires, a word of caution. Room treatments you know, like the tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, the Synergistic Research stuff, the Audio Magic stuff, Shakti Hallographs, SteinMusic Harmonizer, heck, even the ubiquitous Tube Traps ain’t cheap, not by any means. I bet you think room treatment involves simply putting up a couple squares of SONEX."
In my earlier posts, I specifically stated what room treatments I use. They are all GIK Acoustics products, probably the most affordable and effective room treatment I’ve come across. All their products are based on proven acoustic principles and physics. They are nothing like the "tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, the Synergistic Research stuff, the Audio Magic stuff, Shakti Hallographs, SteinMusic Harmonizer". All in all, I’ve spent about $4k on the acoustic treatments, which is tens of thousands less than a pair of Odin speaker cables. I have combination of diffusors and absorbers to tame room resonances, slap echos, comb filtering, etc. It took me several years to fine tune my room after multiple consultations with the proprietor of GIK Acoustics. My listening room has no windows and is double dry wall construction. So no, I don’t think room treatment involves simply puttng up a couple of squares of SONEX. Obviously, you have no idea what room treatment involves. Like all your attacks, it's based on your own imagination.
"Operators capable of raising capital must set pricing on the products the capital is used to produce at a level that maximizes the net-present-value of all future cash flows generated by that capital (as determined using a discount rate equal to the operator’s cost of capital) which in turn must maximize the rate-of-return on each dollar of the capital raised.
Those who employ capital must make such pricing decisions by assessing the price elasticity for the product in question and the incumbent capital required to meet the demand for any given price point. The cost to produce any particular product is only used to determine the floor for pricing to determine a go-no-go decision on the capital project.
Failure to employ rate-of-return maximizing corporate finance principals will quickly undermine the operator’s ability to raise capital as such capital will alternatively flow to those who understand these concepts.
What you describe harkens back to a Soviet style centrally planned economy where the cost of manufacturing is used to determine pricing. Maybe this is one small part of the disconnect so many have with your approach to things.
Regarding your comment 4, I must confess I oscillate between whether I think you really believe the things you say about cables (and as such simply need enlightenment as a scientific matter) or you understand how ill founded your positions are but nonetheless use them within the nebulas nature of the subject to berate those who’s success you deplore. All things considered, (i.e., your clear venom toward the affluent, juvenile treatment toward anyone who logically challenges you, and the weakness of your positions) I continue to lean toward the latter.
Take the corollary of your position into consideration. In my experience I have generally found the correlation coefficient between intelligence and economic success to be greater the zero. On its face, your position argues that the most successful of the successful have happened upon their economic position in spite of the fact that you claim a correlation coefficient of less than zero. A pretty illogical proposition in my opinion.
I strongly encourage you to spend some time with the brain trust you purport to maintain to understand how inductance and capacitance not only impact current availability but influence bandwidth in analog cables; why skin effect is so critical in speaker cables (why I prefer Nordost btw); etc.etc.etc. The mere existence of snake oil is not justification for dismissal of all sound scientific principals. That behavior wreaks of an agenda.
As I pointed out (and you chose to mock rather than acknowledge) there are 70,000 people in the USA alone who’s time is valued to such a degree that it makes no economic sense for them to sort through the low priced cables to achieve the performance they desire. Such an endeavor would actually be more expensive not less expensive than going to a cable company with sound engineering and paying for their services. I refuse to believe you are incapable of grasping this concept but choose to ignore it because it stands in the way of your purpose here."
--You’re now an economist and political scientist in addition to being an "engineer" and "psychoanalyst". It’s really hard for me to take you seriously at this point. I was hoping you would be elucidating instead of being just weird. At least Geoff makes specific points, although unfounded. You hide behind your words and have added nothing useful. BTW, yes skin effect, capacitance, inductance, and resistance. They're real and measurable and are the bases for all sensibly constructed cables. Again you have added nothing new or elucidating.
"All in all, I’ve spent about $4k on the acoustic treatments, which is tens of thousands less than a pair of Odin speaker cables."
Well, of course you can find cables that are much more expensive than your $4K room treatment; however, $4K is much more than most audiophiles spend on cables. Besides, your $4K pales in comparison to what better heeled audiophiles spend on room treatments. Ergo, your contention that one can obtain better results for a lot less money (than expensive cables) by employing things like room treatments is patently false.
dracule1 OP 957 posts 06-21-2016 1:13pm Geoffkait: "Your negative or unsubstantial results actually don’t match what the majority of audiophiles experience with expensive cables, therefore your contention that expensive cables are not worth the price is unfounded."
to which dracule1 replied,
"--Says you. I know plenty who have had the opposite experience. It’s hard not to convince yourself that your mega expensive cables improved the sound of your system after spending so much money on fancy dressed copper wire. So your contention is unfounded."
I suggest you try to get a different circle of friends. Plus, as I’ve said previously, a thorough and careful experimenter will be able to isolate or control variables such as expectation bias and placebo effect.
Geoffkait: "Two, your contention that blind tests reveal that all expensive cables are no better than cheap cables is either your own puffery and untrue or if you have been involved in a blind test, which BTW I actually doubt, that produced negative results I suggest it is simply an outlier and can be thrown out."
to which dracule1 replied,
"--Not even sure how to even begin on this one. When did I ever claim blind tests reveal ALL expensive cables are no better than cheap cables? I said there is no correlation. Please look up the definition of correlation if I’ve confused you. So anything that goes against your belief is an "outlier"? You’re full of yourself."
Any single test should be considered just a data point. A single test doesn’t prove anything. When taken in the context of the totality of tests when most gave positive results the ones that gave negative results can be thrown out.
Geoffkait"Besides the tests you yourself (for some bizarre reason) linked earlier on this thread actually show the opposite - they show that there ARE significant differences among cables as heard by almost ALL listeners in the test."
to which dracule1 replied,
"--When did I ever claim there is no difference in sound among cables? I have repeatedly stated that I hear differences in cables. This shows you’re blinded by your own biases and not EVEN LISTENING to what I have been saying. First, I thought you’re just a troll. Now I know you’re not even a good troll."
I never said you did say there’s NO difference between cables. What you keep saying, though, is that there is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in sound quality between very expensive cables and inexpensive cables. And you yourself provided evidence to the contrary when you linked the blind test that showed otherwise.
dracule1 - why don't you contact the cable manufacturers whose products you find disagreeable & ask them to justify their prices...? Then you can post the response...
One more thing, why give a s**t what some manufacturers charge...? There are plenty of items in this world that I feel are over-priced so I don’t buy them & can still find items that I feel are reasonably priced.
At best, you could say that the thread: -helped us recognize that many cables are perceived to be overpriced -acknowledged (I think) that there are sonic differences among cables, but -the high priced spread isn't necessarily always "the best" for some people. It also helped us see that -the subject of cables is a seemingly endless controversy, and one that won't likely be resolved soon, by this thread or otherwise, owing in part to the fact that the perceived results among cable seems to vary, depending on listener and system; -that some folks who have higher priced cable that have chimed in here (not necessarily a good, representative sample of anything) don't feel ripped off by spending money on cables to achieve synergy with their systems, whereas Dracula and perhaps a few others (I didn't have the energy to wade through it all again) have used "fancy" cable and concluded that they get better results from less expensive cable products. There have been a few attempts to describe the science, but I'm not sure it adequately describes why different cables sound different or work more synergistically with some equipment than others. Frankly, I'm always interested in opposing views. The sniping gets in the way of productive discussion, in my estimation.
I think @almarg summed it up best in his post on 6-03-2016, referencing a post of his on another thread from 3-15-2016. As Al so eloquently put it:
Can everyone agree on most or all of the following, and then perhaps this less than constructive discussion can be concluded:
1)Wires
sound different, to a greater or lesser degree depending not only on
the wire but on the technical characteristics of what they are
connecting, their lengths, the AC voltage and noise characteristics at
the particular location in the case of power cords (at least), the
system, the room, the recording, and the listener.
2)For many
reasons, including synergy with the aforementioned variables, the
correlation between cable price and cable performance is significantly
less than 1.0 (i.e., significantly less than perfect).
3)Based in
part on a substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has accumulated
over the years, the correlation between cable price and cable
performance is significantly greater than 0.0 (i.e., significantly
greater than none).
4)It seems evident that some cables are
overpriced, one reason among several being that their prices are
determined in part based on what the market will bear. And it seems
evident that SOME segment of the market assumes a higher degree of
correlation between cable price and cable performance than is actually
the case, and that segment of the market will therefore pay higher
prices to achieve results that may (with sufficient experimentation) be
achievable at lower prices in their particular cases.
5)Additional
reasons that cables may in many cases be overpriced relative to the
benefit they are likely to provide (I’m quoting from myself in the
following thread from a couple of years ago; and pardon the redundancy
with some of the points mentioned above):
(a)As seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles, cable performance is highly system dependent.
(b)From
a technical standpoint, it can be expected that cable performance will
vary significantly depending on the technical characteristics of the
components that are being connected, such as impedances. Even to the
point of a comparison between two cables yielding exactly opposite
results depending on what they are connecting. In past threads, such as this one,
I have cited examples of situations in which exactly that can be
expected to occur. [See especially both of the paragraphs in my post in
that thread dated 12-15-2012 which begin with "one interesting
example"].
(c)It seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles
that cable performance cannot be either fully explained or fully
predicted based on generally recognized science. It follows from that,
however, that the cable designers have no way to accurately predict the
point of demarcation between optimization of a given cable parameter or
design characteristic and what may be overkill of that parameter or
design characteristic, which will accomplish nothing in most or all
applications. Therefore it can be expected that what is likely to be a
significant driver of the cost of many very expensive cables is overkill
of some or all of their design parameters and characteristics, which
will accomplish nothing in most or all applications.
6)It
can be expected that if SOME audiophiles whose cable experience has
focused disproportionately on the higher part of the price spectrum were
to give equal opportunity to a variety of cables at lower price points,
and experiment with such cables as extensively as they do with higher
priced cables, there is a significant chance that they may be able to
achieve performance comparable to what they have achieved at those
higher price points at significantly lower price points. A substantial
body of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere
supports that conclusion, for example the threads about vintage Western
Electric wires.
7)It can be expected that if SOME audiophiles
whose cable experience has focused disproportionately or entirely on the
lower part of the price spectrum were to focus on the higher part of
the price spectrum they might in some cases, depending in part on their
equipment, be surprised at how good the results are. A substantial body
of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere supports
that conclusion
8)Some audiophiles care more than others about
achieving the last 5 or 10 or 20% of the performance their components
are capable of. Some are satisfied with 80% and just want to listen to
music. Both approaches are equally valid.
9)Assertions that wire is just wire are erroneous, and that belief should not be promulgated.
10)Assertions
that more expensive necessarily = better are also erroneous, and that
belief should not be promulgated, by implication or otherwise.
11)Just
as not all audible differences are measurable, not all measurable
differences are audible. I say that in connection with measurable
differences that are presented in some marketing literature.
12)An
assertion that spending more on cables rather than less increases the
**probability** of achieving optimal results is arguably correct, but
pronouncements to that effect are not gospel. And opinions to the
contrary, if presented in a respectful manner, can and should be
discussed in a respectful manner.
Regards, -- Al
Nothing more really needs to be said. It pretty much covers every cable debate, every time.
Two, your contention that blind tests reveal that all expensive cables are no better than cheap cables is either your own puffery and untrue or if you have been involved in a blind test, which BTW I actually doubt, that produced negative results I suggest it is simply an outlier and can be thrown out.
Basically if if your test results aren't what I want them to be they are "an outlier" and can be thrown out. Too bad that doesn't work in court🙄 And by the way drac I don't think you should exclude coat hangers from your statement. They probably sound better than some 2k cables.
there are many expensive cables I do not like and many inexpensive ones I like very much, but I have never heard a $2k cable that didn't sound better than a coat hangar, regardless of metal used in the hangar...
analogluvr 232 posts 06-22-2016 7:47am "I love this one by Geoff,
Two, your contention that blind tests reveal that all expensive cables are no better than cheap cables is either your own puffery and untrue or if you have been involved in a blind test, which BTW I actually doubt, that produced negative results I suggest it is simply an outlier and can be thrown out.
Basically if if your test results aren't what I want them to be they are "an outlier" and can be thrown out. Too bad that doesn't work in court🙄 And by the way drac I don't think you should exclude coat hangers from your statement. They probably sound better than some 2k cables."
I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. That's not what I'm saying, not by a long shot. What I'm saying is when most blind tests are positive, you know, like the ones the OP posted, you can throw away the ones with negative results because they don't mean anything. They're just data points way off the curve. Follow?
I think cables do make a difference from personal testing, but the guys over at AVS forum are ruthless to defend that a 5 dollar copper cable sounds the same as a 1000 dollars speaker cable.
From personal testing this is not true, the difference is not so dramatic but there are clear differences. I am start to wander now each forum has a set level of thinking. Audiogon forum loves the high end cables reasonably priced. AVS forum either cant afford it so they dismiss it or dont have clean enough ears to make a sound judgement. Audio shark forum goes all out and buys what ever they feel they want. Audio circle forum has alot of decent price cables users. Gearslut forum does not believe in cable differences.
I think one of the cheaper price Purist audio design are well built and good sounding cables. Never tried there anniversary but the commanding price is the same as a secondhand decent sports car.
Once you go past the 1000-1500 dollar mark its Law of Diminishing Return playing in at a 100 fold. Anything above this budget to me starts to get bit too silly.
Same applies to power cords and interconnects. Anything above 1000 dollars is ridiculous.
I think Neotech is by far the best value in the cable business.
analogluvr 233 posts 06-22-2016 10:15am Geoff I quoted your statement word for word.... How is that putting words in your mouth??
Simple. It’s your misunderstanding or mischaracterization of what I meant obviously. Otherwise you would not have written, "Basically if if your test results aren't what I want them to be they are "an outlier" and can be thrown out." Follow?
"Basically if if your test results aren’t what I want them to be they are "an outlier" and can be thrown out,"
you were putting words in my mouth. You were saying it as if I said it. Hel-looo! (Although I would not use two ifs in a row myself.) thus, you both misunderstood what I said and put words in my mouth.
I’ve mentioned before "earning on foolish and ez way of living". Therefore I’m here in USA and I like that type of earning (hey dontcha as well huh?) and making living and use it every day except nights weekends and vacations and so is lots of high-end manufacturers on something people go crazy and spend foolishly.
The foolish at the same time, having no other brains but anger and aggression thirst (similar to our future leaders hey personally don’t give a truck which one) goes onto someone else’s lands and dwellings and takes away the wealth by force to support economy (or tell me what else y’all know). Identically to audiophile industry brainwash, to justify such imperialistic actions, mass media works efficient to convince foolish to believe that it’s for their security and protection. It seems that the "goal-finale" is to have small number of people dominate large number of people by depleting knowledge sources and education so they can more easily believe to nonsense and brainwash globally at this point of time... There’s a lot evidence to it and ones that don’t notice global national retardation (xk’uz my French), is either ignorant or indeed foolish.
Therefore we’re in constant conflict between war and peace.
Oh god Geoff, go sell a bag of rocks or something. That is called paraphrasing, you did say it, Hel-looo!
Do you know what irony means? The definition is Geoffkait whining about someone mischaracterizing something he's said, when he basically makes a career out of doing that to people he disagrees with.....
analogluvr , Did you ever try to sell bag of rocks for $$$?
It doesn't matter how you make your career. If that's the way than the way is found and the wealth is built by once again convinsing fool. The end result is all that matters. Same applies to wire and any other manufacturers. Kimber cable has affordable wires and mega-priced wires for foolish rich parents' children. Why should you blame them?
Isn't it interesting how, at times, Audiogon threads resemble, or even are, microcosms reflecting the growing fear and cynicism of our current epoch?
There is a way to be satirically and cynically funny and informative simultaneously. Effort is needed to keep it there without collapsing into personal jabs. Perhaps this is also reflective of the apathy meter readings amongst some of our fellows, sometimes.
Two, your contention that blind tests reveal that all expensive cables are no better than cheap cables is either your own puffery and untrue or if you have been involved in a blind test, which BTW I actually doubt, that produced negative results I suggest it is simply an outlier and can be thrown out.
Basically if if your test results aren't what I want them to be they are "an outlier" and can be thrown out. Too bad that doesn't work in court🙄 And by the way drac I don't think you should exclude coat hangers from your statement. They probably sound better than some 2k cables. "
One thing I've learned about Geoff is that he is incompetent at trolling. He will repeatedly stick his foot in his mouth, and then pretend like he never said or meant it even though you quote him verbatim. He will try to come off being "cool" posting what he thinks is witty and then get all defensive when someone points out his contradictions.
I agree there are a few pretty incompetently designed expensive cables that may have trouble competing with coat hangers. Imagine the controversy if I started the thread this way. Watts and Geoff would have their pants up to their nipples and challenging me to a dual.
"I never said you did say there’s NO difference between cables. What you keep saying, though, is that there is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in sound quality between very expensive cables and inexpensive cables. And you yourself provided evidence to the contrary when you linked the blind test that showed otherwise."
Sigh. You just don't get it do you? How many times do I have to repeat myself. CORRELATION, CORRELATION, CORRELATION!!! You're a horrible troll.
"dracule1 - why don't you contact the cable manufacturers whose products you find disagreeable & ask them to justify their prices...? Then you can post the response..."
Infection, funny that you ask. I did do that at an audio show. One manufacturer was dumbfounded that I even asked the question and fumbled to give me an answer. In the end, he said something to the effect of his cables being the Mercedes of cables. Righhhhhhhhhht. Others will try to overwhelm you with their proprietary but unproven technology hoping you'll buy into it.
Then, I called a well known cable manucture who makes cables up to about $2000 to $3000. His most expensive power cord is about $900 for 1.5 meters. I asked him what goes into $15,000 power cord. He is a metallurgist and an engineer. He basically told me he couldn't justify the cost of such power cord based on his knowledge of price of metals, insulators, cost of manufacture, advertising, and distribution. Either he doesn't know what he's talking about, which I highly doubt because I own several of his power cords and would put them up against any PC, or there is a lot of price gauging in high end. He is not my friend, and I have no loyalty to him. I'm just his customer.
"Well, of course you can find cables that are much more expensive than your $4K room treatment; however, $4K is much more than most audiophiles spend on cables. Besides, your $4K pales in comparison to what better heeled audiophiles spend on room treatments. Ergo, your contention that one can obtain better results for a lot less money (than expensive cables) by employing things like room treatments is patently false."
Geoff, you're not even making sense. My $4k in room treatments has done more to improve the sound of my system than any $40k speaker cable or $10k interconnect I've auditioned. I need a translator. Or is this another one of your bad attempts at trolling? If you're claiming some audiophiles spending way more than myself in room treatments is proof that my contention is false, then you're one marble way from frontal lobe dementia. You don't know much these audiophiles are spending, and you have no clue how much of an improvement the acoustic treatment is having relative to cables, especially given your idea of acoustic treatments is brass bowls, etc. Man, I thought you're smarter than this, but you disappointment me every time.
It's pretty obvious you have very little knowledge of room treatments given what you've sited as room treatments in you past comment. Go to GIK Acoustics site and other sources and educate yourself on scientically validated acoustic room treatment, which is one of the very few things in high end where one can actually CORRELATE measurements with what we hear. There's that pesky word you seem to have so much trouble understanding.
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