jl35, I'm ok with Gates having Wamm system, along as he had the sense to kick the guy, who was trying to sell him $100k cables, out the door. 😏
Are audiophiles still out of their minds?
I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
Showing 50 responses by dracule1
Ricred1, I have auditioned cables in the $10k+ range. They make a difference in sound, but not necessarily for the better. Having speakers that are $40k+, I thought expensive cables should make a whole lot of improvement for that kind of money. Even if it did make a improvement in sound, I rather go buy better room treatment or amplifier, which I know have made much bigger difference IME. What I'm opposed to is the tremendous mark up in price and very little engineering involved, as compared to producing a speaker, amplifier, DAC, etc. And cable manufacturers having the balls to ask ridiculous price and us audiophiles believing these cables are worth the asking price. Of course, there are very credible cable manufacturers out there who ask reasonable prices, not rivaling price of an entry level car or more. But you're right, there are people who can crap money and not care about how much they spend on cables. |
Jond, almost everything is subjective in high end, including the price of cables. $375 for cables is IMO reasonable. Now is your cable really worth the original asking price of $2000? May be or may be not, given you never saved up to buy them for the original price. Now, if the cable manufacturer decided to charge $10k for them, what would you say even with the improvement it made to your system? |
Philipwu, not a dumb question at all. What is dumb is the person who came up with the idea that 15-20% of your system should be spent on cables. It was probably cable manufacturers who brain washed gullible audiophiles to spend that much on cables. I've been in this hobby for 30 years, and you hear all kinds of BS based on no credible evidence. Like some have said, you can replace $2000 worth of cables with another for $250 and get better results because of system synergy. Unfortunately, there are audiofools who will not consider a component worthy unless it costs above a certain price point. So to accommodate these fools, manufactures will purposely make components expensive by adding bling to the chassis but doing nothing to the all important circuitry. A friend, who is a manufacturer of audio gear, once told me you won't get press or attention unless you make the chassis huge and substantial and charge a hefty sum. It is not unusual for some high end gear with 30-40% of its cost just in the chassis work. So that $50k amp you're drooling over is largely made up of bling that doesn't improve the sound. Clever marketing will claim the substantial chassis is for resonance control, I know of another famous audio designer who came up with a very efficient component with small footprint, but his customers complained it wasn't big enough. So he just put the same circuit in a bigger macho looking chassis which drove up the cost. We audiophiles often shoot ourselves in the foot with our own stupidity. |
Nice try, geoffkait, I bought my $2700 cables 5 years ago. Adjusting for inflation, the price hasn’t changed much at all given the slow growth of our economy. And any cable with asking price $2700 is still too expensive today, IMO. 20 years ago, I was a poor kid in graduate school and couldn’t even afford a $50 cable, even though I was bitten by the audiophile fever. But didn’t I admit I regretted the purchase to begin with? Why try to dig up crap where it doesn't exist? |
Faster61woman, acoustic room treatment -- now that's a subject really worth deep discussion! It perplexes me to no end when audiophiles spend $10k on speaker cables, and you find their system is in a room with no acoustic treatment other than their furniture. With only $2-3k in room treatment, you can greatly improve the sound of your system, sometimes more dramatically than buying new speakers. Everything sounds so much better, including your $10k speaker wire 😏, when you have a properly treated room. |
Dear Callaway, my current system includes Raidho D2 (waiting fir my D2.1 to arrive), completely rebuilt QUAD ESL 57, Ridge Street Audio Sason (out of business now), Silverline Minuet, slightly modded Bob Carver Cherry 180 (kickass 200 watt tube mono blocks with Vcap, Goldpoint input attenuator), Bedini 25/25 1Meg, Pioneer M20 (vintage class A 30 watt SS amp), Lampizator Golden Gate DAC, Audial Model S DAC with Double Crown TDA1541 chip, Tortuga Audio LDR preamp, and modded Acurus RL11 preamp (surprisingly good). My music server is the dB Audio Labs Revolution server which is a completely reworked quad core Mac Mini with battery power supply, SD memory, gamer RAM, and rewritten Mac OS source code to improve audio quality. It includes dB Audio Labs' version of Audiovarna music software. All this for under $2k with money back guarantee. Sad, hardly anyone knows about this gem of a music server. Instead all these PC based servers costing $5 to $20k get all the attention in the media. I built a dedicated windowless, audio only room measuring 17x22’ with 10’ ceiling with two dedicated AC lines and extensive acoustic absorption and diffusion treatments. My AC line is treated with Environmental Potentials filtering/protection system at the mains box of the house. As for cabling, I use various manufacturers including some DIY, but none are overrated megabuck cabling. Like I said, the most expensive cables I have are my $2700 silver ribbon speaker cables by the now defunct Ridge Street Audio. They are very natural sounding cables with no silver brightness of most silver cables, but I still think they are too expensive. I can only justify its cost because of the amount of high quality silver (couple of pounds), hand manufacturing, and clever terminal-less spades which are contiguous extension of the ribbon wire. I’ve done many comparisons of mega expensive cables in the past and found them wanting. They may do audiophile things well like imaging and soundstaging, but faulter on natural timbre of acoustic instruments and vocals. |
Phusis, although you can try "natural" acoustic treatments as you describe it, they are nowhere nearly as effective as absorbers and diffusors that are made based on mathematic calculations from acoustic theory. For example, book selves filled with books do minimal or no diffusing. I was dissapointed when I found out. Believe me, I've tried using plants, rugs, bookshelves, couches, etc. In a problematic room, these don't come anywhere close to real diffusors and absorbers. |
David12, I didn't start this thread to start a flame war. Recently I looked into speaker purchase, and someone on another forum started a thread on cabling for the speaker I was interested in. The cabling for the whole system costs over $100k. Yes, that's not a typo. For that kind of money you can build a kickass dedicated audio room or put a downpayment on a second home. Or feed a needy child for many years, if you're inclined to donate. If one has that kind of money to throw around for cabling, I'm not here to stop him. I just think he needs a reality check. Everyone draws the line somewhere, but high end has become comically retarded. |
Asvjerry, it takes two to tango. The sucker who buys $10k+ cable thinking it's money well spent. And the cable manufacturer who thinks there's a sucker around each corner and charges $10k+. You take the sucker out, and no more ludicrously priced cables. But it's difficult to educate a sucker. I suppose we were all suckers when we started in this hobby, but some of us saw the BS in high end and stopped buying expensive wire lined with fairy dust and infused with rainbow juice. |
Just a thought. How do cable manufacturers justify the price of their megabuck cables? The material cost of nearly unobtanium radioisotope treatment of there cables? Their mega research facility cost? Labor cost? Cost of hiring a Haitian voodoo doctor? All of the above? Or just suckers who are willing to pay no matter how rediculous the price. |
jl35, I'm repeating this for the 3rd time. I've already said $2700 was too much for speaker cables and regret the purchase. Funny thing is no audiophile ever told me that was too expensive. Sorry, I don't agree $100k cabling might be good fit for a 7 figure system, when I'm certain you can do just as well, if not better, with cabling costing a tiny fraction of that. |
wattsperchannel, " Certain individuals find $100,000 wires cheap, some do not; where is the profit in belittling one or the other. It all seams so trite, wreaks of jealousy, and ignorance. Get over it, accept your lot in life and enjoy it for what it is; we only get one. You may find the whole journey a little more enjoyable." Hmm, and your comment isn’t belittling and a little self serving like you have it all together in life? Your type of attitude feeds into the justification of ludicrously priced wires. It seems you are the one ignorant of the cable industry with its crazy markup and backhanded deals between dealers and manufacturers where the markup can be easily over 10x and customers get ripped off. I know because I have insider friends who deal with cable manufacturers. Find me an individual who thinks $100k wire is cheap. Or are you just pulling that out of your nether region? Me jealous of $100K cables? I have no choice but to laugh at this nonsense. The only profit I’m hoping for is to steer some newbie audiophile away from these high priced high end cables, which are complete sham. Thank you for such an enlightening response. I guess just have to accept my life isn’t perfect like yours. |
jl35, even with those "good deals" from direct sale cable manufacturers, they are making a healthy profit, much more than if one were to produce and sell a speaker or amplifier. Why do you think there are so many guys out there making cables from their home? It’s relatively easy to make, requires no degree or competent knowledge in engineering or electronics, and materials are cheap, unless you start buying from those "audiophile" wire producers. I’m not criticizing the small guy producing cable from his home. Usually they’re reasonably priced. I know a guy who made good tube amps. He found out how much markup there was for cables through an associate who made audiophile cables for a living. Now he’s making cables, and his tube amps are history. The markups for $100K cables are insane. |
Eattsperchannel, I’m not your "dude". I never said mine was the right one. So you are misinterpreting my opinion as fact. All of us are expressing our opinion. You are calling my views on price of cables narrow minded and I’m defacing innocent bystanders. Did I call out anyone particular? No. While you are on your high horse belittling me and my opinion, look in the mirror? Or did I hit a nerve because you have ridiculously priced cables in your system? You're taking this too personally. So take a chill pill, homie. |
I never said all weren't engineers. There are cables that are made with proven engineering practice by engineers. Whether they sound good to you or not is a different matter. "I never worry about the guys who spend a fortune on new cables. if not for them, we couldn’t buy used cables." Well, you have a point there. Let the suckers buy them first, and you reap the benefits later. "I had Transparent XL and Super MM2 for 8 years, at a $50 total cost after I sold them" So you do know the business model. Crazy markup. |
jl35, "Curious as to which cheap cables you felt sounded as good as your Ridge Streets" It it depends on which set up I’m using. The ridge street speaker cables are fantastic with the ridge street Sason speakers with tube amplification. But in another system with brighter sounding speakers, it can sound tonally a little thin. In cases like these, cheap copper speaker cables from Signal Cable work very well and I prefer it over the ridge streets. Some the very best ICs I’ve ever had in my system is using the affordable Signal Silver Resolution IC wire (Ag/Cu hybrid) with Furutech RCA plugs with the solderless clamping nut (under $400 retail). I was surprised how much solder can degrade sound. I compared this with ridge street Altheia pure silver IC which retailed for over $1000. Surprisingly in my main setup, the Altheia sounded looser in the bass, more rounded and fuller in the mids, and less extrended in the highs like a classic tube gear. Wasn't really a fan of this type of sound. Power cords from DH labs are on the expensive side, but 5’ Red Wave PC can still be had for $750 retail and sound great in a variety of systems I’ve tried. Very dimensional, extended, dynamic and detailed without sounding strident. You can get used Red Wave for less than half the price, which IMO is very reasonable for what it does. It definitely is better than the much less expensive PC offerings from Signal. Cable sound is all over the map and doesn't necessarily correlate with price IME. |
Jmcgrogen, "I ask because you come off the same way as those blokes back in the day (1990’s?). Acting as if you are out trying to save the world, when inside it seems like all you really desire is a good tussle. You live for the antagonism, it gives you a natural high. You are reveling in this troll thread.......ahhh good bait!!!" Save the world by posting my beef about cables? What have you been smoking? It seems you’re the one who gets off on a good tussle repeatedly trying to bait me. 😏 Time to ignore you. But I'm certain you'll try to get the last word in and try to bait me with endless dribble. Have you're last say and RIP. |
O_holter, yes there cable manufacturers who are genuinely trying to make great sounding cables at a reasonable cost. I’ve never evaluated JPS. It’s nice to hear they are willing to support customers who bought their cable used. It’s only during the early 1990’s, did we see a slew of cable manufacturers start charging over $1000. Clever marketing, over the top reviews by top mags at the time, and a big dose of support by gullible audiophiles catapulted cable prices to the obscene we see today. |
One notable point. Most of the legendary designers of high end audio like Neson Pass, Bob Carver, Arney Nudell, Peter Walker, etc do/did not use or believe in these fairy dust audiophile cables. These are legends that cable manufactures who hock megabuck cables would freely give or give at cost their cables just for marketing reasons. I have had long conversations with one of these legends who opened my eyes on what goes behind the scenes in high end audio. There are so many fallacies that audiophiles will believe and defend to this very day. |
Mitch, "However, there are well-respected manufacturers who do believe in high end/priced cables being different/better so courses for horses, just like with the folks on this thread." Some of them also manufacture speakers and recommend their extremely expensive cables for their speakers. Incredibly, some of their cables cost more than their speakers. Go figure. As as my conversation with one of the legends of audio revealed, many of these well-respected manufactures who "believe" in high priced cables use/promote those cables more for marketing reasons than their inherent value. |
Eatts, we have a difference in opinion. Yet you seem to be unable to grasp this simple concept. First, you claimed $100k for cabling is considered cheap to some. Now you revised that to $20k. That’s factor of 5 differential. Either way it’s ridiculous, but be consistent in your argument. You claim time is more valuable than the cost differential. To a few that may be true, but I guarantee you that for 99.999999999% of the population, spending $100k for wires for an audio system is incomprehensible. You can use whatever permutation you like to justify your purchase, but you’re coming off like a person born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I guess it’s easy to convince yourself of your delusion when you can afford Soluution electronics with your Raidho D3. I was extremely lucky to come on a great deal on a D2, which I would have never purchased otherwise. So I’m looking from a different perspective than yours. The fact that you don’t want to reveal what cabling you have in you’re system says a lot. It may have everything to do with why you were compelled to comment. You were offended that I called people who spend tens of thousands on cables suckers. Do you fall into this category? Like I said, everyone who got into high end at one point was a sucker, including myself. No shame in that. And I get the distinct feeling I’ve been in this hobby almost as long as you’ve been alive. So in the end, we have a difference in opinion. You think it’s justifiable to spend $100k on wire. I don’t. If you think I’m ignorant because of that, then there are a lot more who belive you're ignorant for justifying spending a down payment on a house for audio wire. Yes, it all boils down to value judgement. But your sense of value is so far off from the rest of the population, it’s like arguing with Donald Trump. Hopefully, I was pedantic enough for you to be able to grasp my perspective. I see no point in responding to you after this. |
Geoffkait, "Lots of notable people don’t believe in things like high end cables, or say wire directionality or aftermarket fuses or fuse directionality and other things that have been around like forever. But that in itself doesn’t mean they’re not true." If their claim isn’t true, don’t you think those who claim it’s true need to prove it? Oh wait, this is high end audio. Sorry for even suggesting that. 🙄 All jokes aside, from what I recall there have been several published blinded AB tests to test differences in sound between cables and even between amps. But as we know, the results are always the same and not in the favor of cable manufacturers. But that’s another whole can of worms. Einstein and his refusal to accept quantum mechanics. You have a point there, but he was right about so many other things like gravity waves, space-time, black holes, photo-electric effect, etc. Who knows in the future some genius will turn quantum mechanics upside down and prove Einstein was right. 😏 |
Watts, thank you for your online University of Pheonix psychoanalysis. I’m happy you’re crawling back to whatever hippy new age culture you sprang from that compels you to give psycho babble advice to someone you’ve never met. I’m very happy listening to Nora Jones while I write this. And good luck with your journey back to your plane of existence. |
Here are links to blinded tests. No test is perfect, but it’s better than just believing there’s a difference without evidence or even worse believing in the manufacturer claims. I never claimed there is no difference in cable sound. I just think the pricing has gone to the ridiculously extreme. The first link is the most comprehensive I’ve found. Eat your heart out Geoffkait. http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths http://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0#LyBXQZi... |
Geoffkait, no wiggling needed. You even quoted me, in which I clearly stated that I never claimed there is no difference in cable sound, and no test is perfect. I even stated cables can make a difference in sound in my original post. Was I not clear enough? And why only bring up the Minnesota test and not the others? Cherry picking are we? |