Are audiophiles still out of their minds?
Such decisions are based on individual value systems, free markets, and free will. An individual's failure to understand another's decision paradigm or share his resources doesn't justify criticism. People have the money to spend or the markets wouldn't be there to serve the consumer. One man's dollar is another's $10,000. |
I enjoy meaningful discussions regarding the performance of gear when input is experienced based and reasonably objective. Such discussions about price (or value) by definition have little meaning as price is entirely a relative analyses. Certain individuals find $100,000 wires cheap, some do not; where is the profit in belittling one or the other. It all seams so trite, wreaks of jealousy, and ignorance. Get over it, accept your lot in life and enjoy it for what it is; we only get one. You may find the whole journey a little more enjoyable. |
dracule1 OP894 posts06-10-2016 5:29pmwattsperchannel,Dude how about you go back and re-read my words and this time try to think about their meaning. I do not believe you understood what I said. I am sorry if I was not clear. All of your comments about price are meaningless. You are trying to instill your very simple, very narrow (mis)understanding of the such things on the masses. Why do you insist on thinking your interpretation of a wholly subjective matter like relative-value is the right one? Maybe spend some time evaluating the pathology of such behavior as opposed to defacing innocent bystanders. Like I said above, you might find the journey a little more enjoyable. |
Drac, If I explain things in a somewhat pedantic fashion; for that I apologize, but I do so in hopes that it will help with your understanding. I never said mine was the right one. So you are misinterpreting my opinion as fact. You started the thread and have maintained a derogatory attitude throughout the thread toward people who spend their money in ways with which you disagree. In doing so you don’t just imply but you entirely predicate these suppositions on your view of an ethereal concept like value being the correct one. This is the very basis of your claim. A person can’t call people crazy and/or fools without such claims being founded on a a judgement made by that person. This really isn’t a very complicated concept. You are an antagonist and thats fine, but at least step up and own it. You are calling my views on price of cables narrow minded and I’m defacing innocent bystanders. No, I am calling them meaningless for the reasons I have stated. Allow me to use just one example to make the point as simple as I can: $20,000 cables for some are cheap and DIY cables for those same people are expensive because those people’s time is more valuable than the cost differential. There are a million other permutations of personal circumstances and value judgments that drive an individual’s decision matrix. You are taking your personal matrix and applying it to the masses and then being critical. Thats not very thoughtful or nice. This concept seams completely lost on you, yet you are the one impugning the intelligence of people making sound financial decisions. Until you can begin to get your head around this perspective (which I fear is unlikely) you will never appreciate how you appear to people. If you want we can spend time on the numbers cuz it is primarily about math. Did I call out anyone particular? No. Ummm, no you did not. I do not understand if you are making a point here. May I ask what this comment has to do the discussions? While you are on your high horse belittling me and my opinion, look in the mirror? Goodness, I apologize if I was belittling. My purpose was actually to point out that the premise you were using to do the belittling made no sense. The whole thing is actually kinda funny. You need a paradigm shift. I am just trying to save you from yourself. Or did I hit a nerve because you have ridiculously priced cables in your system? Another comment that I have trouble understanding. How do my cables have anything to do with you ripping on people from a position of abject ignorance? I know I am really happy with my cables. Does that help clarify anything for you? You’re taking this too personally. So take a chill pill, homie. What have I said that would make you think this has anything to do with me or that I am even a little bit riled up? Intrigued, amused, entertained, I will give you those; but I assure you I am totally chill dude. |
Drac, I agree there is no further point in interacting on this subject as we are not connecting on the important issues. Whether you realize it or not the discussion we attempted to have has little to do with audio or cables. You appear to me to be a very unhappy person. Concocting irrational positions to justify an attempt to lift yourself above others will only add to your burden. Look within; focus on the pathology of that which drives your need to behave in such a way. Its the only only way out. Good luck with the journey. |
Al, That is pretty funny. I too am an engineer but have spent a lot of time over the years with some brilliant litigators as well . I feel a comfort level with your approach to reason. It is quite socratic. When you approach from all angles you leave no escape hatch for the unreasonable. I also have DOD experience having manufactured parts on the F16 and electrical system components for pretty much everything in the US Army that moves--the M1 Abrams, Bradley, Humvee etc. Maybe we can blame them for our approach to such matters. :) |
Al, I hope you take no disrespect from this but when I read your posts (like the two below), I feel I am reading my own thoughts but expressed in a more refined manner. Your logic is typically spot-on, sequentially developed and cogent, yet complete. (I would speculate you are an engineer or have played one in a former life; but that is just a guess. I suppose a litigator could be an option as well.) I see very little room for a thoughtful person to argue any of your observations in the second post. The only minor quibble I have would be the use of the term "over-priced" in paragraphs (4) and (5) which has the potential to leave a negative connotation based on a subjective measure (namely value). Certainly some wires have different "price-to-performance ratios," but given you have done such a intelligent job of compiling a list of objective observations void of subjective noise (i.e., crafted in a manner that disavows contention), I might have said it differently. None-the-less, very well done. So when the content of your second post is juxtaposed with the understanding that the definition of "value" is entirely personal, in my opinion it becomes quite clear that people using purchase decisions (be they of cables or otherwise) as a weapons do so for reasons completely unrelated to audio. almarg6,448 posts06-12-2016 10:13amGeoffkait 6-11-2016 6:04 pm EDTWhile there are those who would consider an Appeal to Authority to be a logical fallacy, as I see it such an appeal is not at all illogical. Rather, it is simply less than conclusive, to SOME degree. The degree to which it is less than conclusive, and the persuasiveness of the appeal, comes down to a matter of judgment, taking into account the credibility and relevant background of the particular authority, the persuasiveness of conflicting evidence that may be available, the nature of the particular subject, and perhaps other factors. And as always, the judgments of different individuals will frequently differ. almarg6,448 posts03-15-2016 2:30pmCan everyone agree on most or all of the following, and then perhaps this less than constructive discussion can be concluded: |
geoffkait3,570 posts06-12-2016 10:35am This reminds me of the old quip by Mark Twain (if I recall correctly) about "lies, damned lies, and statistics." People with an agenda take perfectly sound analytic protocols like DBL's and regression and distort the results for a living. Ignoring basic test parameters like degrees-of-freedom and statistical significance not only creates incorrect conclusions but gives the protocol itself a very bad name. |
Well this may be the dumbest thing I have done in a while but its a lazy Sunday and I am bored so what the heck, I will have a bit more of Drac's luscious troll bait. dracule1 OP905 posts06-11-2016 3:56pmFirst, you claimed $100k for cabling is considered cheap to some. Now you revised that to $20k. That’s factor of 5 differential. Either way it’s ridiculous, but be consistent in your argument. Whether $100K or $20K cables really isn't the issue. My point is people have different views about value based on their personal economic conditions and life philosophy. I have no issue with someone believing or not believing in the benefits of cables or any other product for that matter. That is their prerogative and I respect it completely. What I do not respect is someone using words like "fool, gullible, crazy, dumb, brain-washed, audio-fool, sucker and retarded" to describe other people strictly because their view of the value of a dollar is different than theirs. You claim time is more valuable than the cost differential. To a few that may be true, but I guarantee you that for 99.999999999% of the population, spending $100k for wires for an audio system is incomprehensible. Actually last count there where around about 70,000 people in the USA worth more than $30 million and 14,000 who are worth more than $100 million; by your math every last one of these people would consider such a purchase "incomprehensible." Maybe this lack of capacity for seeing the big picture generally and inability to do simple math specifically that explains a lot about your posts. You can use whatever permutation you like to justify your purchase, but you’re coming off like a person born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I guess it’s easy to convince yourself of your delusion when you can afford Soluution electronics with your Raidho D3. The fact that you don’t want to reveal what cabling you have in you’re system says a lot. It may have everything to do with why you were compelled to comment. You were offended that I called people who spend tens of thousands on cables suckers. Do you fall into this category? I am not interested in justifying my purchases to anyone but myself. I assure I am completely satisfied with my system and would happily purchase each piece again. I am happy to "reveal" my cables. I did not do so because I don't typically wave my system's details in front of people to prove something. On the other hand, I certainly would not hide my system because of the kinda nonsense you spew. My analog wires are Nordost and my power wires are Furutech. Could I get the same thing or something better for a different price both more or less---of course I could; not to think so would be silly. However, I would never criticize another person for spending more or less. Oh, and let me give you some background on my silver spoon. I grew up in a lower-class-income family of 8; I have never received a dime of inheritance; and I have personally earned every penny I spend. Maybe that's why I respect the rights of others to spend their money as they see fit. Like I said, everyone who got into high end at one point was a sucker, including myself. No shame in that. And I get the distinct feeling I’ve been in this hobby almost as long as you’ve been alive.Ummm, I am old as dirt so I hate to think about your annual Geritol bill. Good thing you don't need cables. So in the end, we have a difference in opinion. You think it’s justifiable to spend $100k on wire. I don’t. If you think I’m ignorant because of that, then there are a lot more who belive you're ignorant for justifying spending a down payment on a house for audio wire. Here is where you need take some of the Ritalin you mock others about and pay closer attention. I definitely think you are ignorant but NOT because you do not think it is justifiable to spend $100k on cable. That would be me behaving like you. I think you are ignorant because you belittle people who think it is justifiable to spend $100K on cable. You haven't the slightest clue about their condition and yet you are incessantly demeaning. Thats messed up dude. |
Drac, You remind me of the guidance I received from a mentor as a young man. He always counseled his colleagues to treat those lacking knowledge with respect as most are good people doing the best they can in life, but always be mindful of people lacking knowledge to such an extreme degree that they do not recognize they lack knowledge. They are the dangerous ones. Through that deficiency into the mix with the pathology of a child that was incessantly beat-up on the playground as a grade-schooler and threads like this get started. |
mapman13,395 posts06-13-2016 9:31pmJoecasey it's pretty simple really. It's called having a rational discussion. Personal attacks are the thing not called for. Ya Joe Casey no personal attacks. Feel free to call people "fools, gullible, crazy, dumb, brain-washed, audio-fools, suckers and retarded" like the OP does but NO personal attacks or you are gunna get a woopin. |
facten561 posts06-13-2016 9:40pmdracule1 - too each his own, you spend your money on what you find works for you and let others spend theirs as suits their needs. facten, You normally make very thoughtful posts but your logic in this case is lost on me. Under your approach, how would Drac work on his self-image? There is little here about cables? Nothing else explain this insanity. |
geoffkait3,587 posts06-15-2016 12:00pmTo my knowledge no audiophile ever thought his sound was unacceptable. Even when it sounds like cats being tortured.or acceptable for that matter. geoffkait3,587 posts06-15-2016 4:26pm Thus the square of the imaginary number 3i is -9.True but still hard to imagine. |
This post speaks volumes----a lot of butt hurt here. |
inna and others here left shaking their heads, I design and build high precision electrical components for folks like Mercedes Benz (S-Series), US Military (M-1 Abrams Tank and F-16 Fighter Jet), and the National Atomic Particle Accelerator (Fermi Lab). I suppose we could discuss Gauss's laws, Maxwell Equations, eddy currents, skin effect etc., but it would serve no purpose here. Get close to the the facts and the OP will revert to anecdotal gibberish or personal insult. The OP just appears to enjoy making others feel bad......period. If you corner him with facts which demonstrate the preposterous nature of his claims, he will retaliate with a personal dagger like his endless insults to Geoff, his comments to folkfreak regarding the SQ of his DCS stack or to me regarding my Nordost cables, the merits of which are laughable on their face. His stock in trade seams to be the nebulous because that allows him to play his game. For instance, when I point out the vagaries of using poorly designed DBT's (i.e., those lacking degrees of freedom, statistical significance or variable control), in his very next posts he references two more DBT's of dubious design and doubles down on their use as justification of an irrational position. Poorly designed experiments are used in marketing and politics; not to determine the truth. This is not the behavior of a person seeking the truth, but rather avoiding it because it gets in the way of his joy ride. There are literally thousands of permutations of a DBT-DOE that can create completely misleading results. Take components with an impedance matching too close to parity. The worse a cables impedance characteristics the better the system is likely to perform. A coat hanger will likely sound better than a Nordost wire and a long coat hanger will sound better than a short one. This proves absolutely nothing. No thoughtful electrical engineer would question that a nordost wire mated with a system designed to work best with the nordost wire will reach sonic heights well beyond a system made with the equivalent design approach using a coat hanger. Yet people get these issues confused, or worse, knowingly use the confusion for devious purposes. |
dracule1 OP937 posts06-17-2016 12:36amBTW, I was a chemistry major in college, so I do have more than basic understanding of physics and materials science. Ok Drac, I will give you credit for your humor. That is friggin hilarious. |
Dracula Playbook Step 1) Bash the wealthy by any means available. Step 2) Add the appearance of credibility to your positions, by doing so in an arena where facts are complex and subjectivity hides true intent. Step 3) If someone figures out your purpose, revert to a higher level of personal insult in hopes of driving them from the conversation. Step 4) Repeat. The scars run deep in this one. |
Al, To point out the problems with poorly designed experiments, I gave an example above of how inferior interconnects can help with impedance matching between components; however, I can't think of a scenario where a combination of the variables you list would make well designed AC wires perform worse than romex (save for an extreme example of a reduced voltage drop leaving voltage above the component spec which, frankly, is hard for me to conceive). You always do a good job of pointing out the existence of each end of the bell curve but in this case I am not in agreement. Can you be specific with a scenario I am missing. BTW, I use 10 gauge Furutech OCC in my walls because I like the way it looks on my oscilloscope. |
geoff, Ya but how about bringing up that "I know a guy" who works at NASA and he agrees with me? Now that pretty much clears up this whole topic. Seriously though, I completely agree with your point that an "Appeal to Authority" is often a sophomoric tactic employed when the facts aren’t in support of a position; just as poorly designed experiments (DBT’s as an example) serve the same purpose. That said, I raised my role as a materials scientist not to support a specific scientific claim (as I have made none). Rather, I did so in response to a post made by inna which indicated the OP needed a scientific background to make his claims. I pointed out my credentials to demonstrate my qualifications to engage in a discussion about science regarding the poorly contrived scientific claims of the OP. This is of course a proposition he has shown no desire to pursue for reasons I have mentioned. Namely, I don’t believe this thread is about cables. |
Al, I understand your points. I guess I was presuming if a person was going to take the step of using a wire with superior properties (capacitance, inductance et. al.) they would take the steps to engineer the system holistically. Taking things one point at a time. 1) Ground Loops-- The key to avoiding ground loops is ensuring equal electrical potential at each receptacle ground. The concept that the emi rejection method of a premium spec wire (be it twisting or otherwise) would cause a variation in potential, I suppose is possible, but to me that would indicate the wire by definition was not premium spec. to begin with. Certainly there are wires with tighter geometric tolerances than romex that would quickly render this concern moot as far as the pursuit of improved overall performance is concerned. (As an aside I use a furutech star ground harness which runs directly from my 5 neutrals 3 feet behind my listening wall to a 1" solid copper 8' grounding rod. It does the trick.) 2) RFI/EMI Filtering-- Of course romex has higher inductance and of course inductance cleans up high frequencies but that would be a blunt (backwards) approach to addressing the problem. I would much prefer wire with both inductance and capacitance thereby maximizing current delivery and clean things up with a purpose built device. ( I use a 75 amp Torus ahead of my 20' 10 gauge Furutech lines. It cleans things up with precision as opposed to hoping my wire is long enough and poorly engineered enough to solve the problem.) 3) Bad is Good Rationalization-- Regarding Steve's stuff, the arguement that taking sound engineering steps to improve the performance of one aspect of a system is a bad idea because it might display the other areas of the system that need improvement has never made any sense to me as it relates to audio or system design generally. How does one ever make progress employing such a mindset? 4) Analog Signals and LCR Tuning-- Yes lots can be done to dial in bandwidth and noise on analog signals to taste. That is why I specifically referred to AC wires in my question. 5) System Predictability-- I would agree predictability is low if system inputs are somewhat randomly assembled, but I would argue results become far more linear (and in fact measurable) when proper science is used in the initial system specification. Again, this holds true in audio as well as system design generally. |
Drac, Regarding your comments 1,2, 3, and 5 you seem to lack an appreciation for how things work in a free market economy. Operators capable of raising capital must set pricing on the products the capital is used to produce at a level that maximizes the net-present-value of all future cash flows generated by that capital (as determined using a discount rate equal to the operator's cost of capital) which in turn must maximize the rate-of-return on each dollar of the capital raised. Those who employ capital must make such pricing decisions by assessing the price elasticity for the product in question and the incumbent capital required to meet the demand for any given price point. The cost to produce any particular product is only used to determine the floor for pricing to determine a go-no-go decision on the capital project. Failure to employ rate-of-return maximizing corporate finance principals will quickly undermine the operator's ability to raise capital as such capital will alternatively flow to those who understand these concepts. What you describe harkens back to a Soviet style centrally planned economy where the cost of manufacturing is used to determine pricing. Maybe this is one small part of the disconnect so many have with your approach to things. Regarding your comment 4, I must confess I oscillate between whether I think you really believe the things you say about cables (and as such simply need enlightenment as a scientific matter) or you understand how ill founded your positions are but nonetheless use them within the nebulas nature of the subject to berate those who's success you deplore. All things considered, (i.e., your clear venom toward the affluent, juvenile treatment toward anyone who logically challenges you, and the weakness of your positions) I continue to lean toward the latter. Take the corollary of your position into consideration. In my experience I have generally found the correlation coefficient between intelligence and economic success to be greater the zero. On its face, your position argues that the most successful of the successful have happened upon their economic position in spite of the fact that you claim a correlation coefficient of less than zero. A pretty illogical proposition in my opinion. I strongly encourage you to spend some time with the brain trust you purport to maintain to understand how inductance and capacitance not only impact current availability but influence bandwidth in analog cables; why skin effect is so critical in speaker cables (why I prefer Nordost btw); etc.etc.etc. The mere existence of snake oil is not justification for dismissal of all sound scientific principals. That behavior wreaks of an agenda. I nor anyone I have seen on this thread has argued the lack of existence of extremes in the distribution of outcomes for cables (Al articulated this most clearly). Some high priced cables are poor performers and low priced cables are exceptional. Further, some high priced cables company's are indeed selling snake oil and bling. This reality, however, by no means negates the fact that other high-end cables are engineered and manufactured to very high standards and perform accordingly. As I pointed out (and you chose to mock rather than acknowledge) there are 70,000 people in the USA alone who's time is valued to such a degree that it makes no economic sense for them to sort through the low priced cables to achieve the performance they desire. Such an endeavor would actually be more expensive not less expensive than going to a cable company with sound engineering and paying for their services. I refuse to believe you are incapable of grasping this concept but choose to ignore it because it stands in the way of your purpose here. It is your refusal to embrace alternative thought and the absolute nature of your claims--that people who buy expensive cables are fools, retarded, etc.--that is the problem so many have with you and this thread. |
almarg6,477 posts06-20-2016 4:13pm I agree completely. Complex root cause analysis, particularly when void of relevant third party data, is often even more complex than the initial design, but that can also be the fun part. What drives me crazy is when a component choice (like a cable for instance) is made without regard to best practices regarding system design and then a conclusion is drawn about that particular component in a vacuum. It is like throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks and then blaming the spaghetti for bad behavior. Finally, while as I say I completely agree with your philosophy, it’s interesting to consider that it would seem likely in a lot of situations to come into conflict with the "trust your ears" mantra that many and probably most high end audiophiles seem to subscribe to. A conflict indeed. I say engineer first to give the system as a whole its best chance to excel, then trust your ears. Otherwise your ears can draw the wrong conclusion about any particular component if the system makeup is not logical (ergo my example about the coat hanger sounding better than the Nordost interconnect between components approaching a parity impedance match). This approach does NOT mean trust measurements over your ears. Use your brain first to give your ears the best view of the system (or component’s) true capability. Regarding the mention of voltage drops in one of your prior posts, I would not discount the possibility that there may be a goodly number of circumstances in which a slightly larger voltage drop in the house wiring may produce results that are preferable to a slightly smaller voltage drop. Interesting point that I will do some additional thinking about. I have typically not been concerned about anything beyond the +/- 5 volts my Torus automatically regulates. I run pretty consistently between 120 and 123 and my Soulution amps seem to behave well at this level but I definitely take your point. Thanks for your thoughts. |
Yes xti16 you are correct about Soulution/Raidho but you must be careful. If you use these types of instruments with properly designed isolated power, an MSB Diamond Dac V and a purpose built room you might start hearing differences in cables. This sort of thing can be hazardous to your health in these parts. |
Step 3 is happening all over the place. Drac, If you can’t respect others at least get a little self respect. |
o_holter Vince Galbo at MSB put together the following piece that explains the merits of avoiding line modulation. I use 10 gauge all the way to my isolation transformer. http://www.msbtech.com/support/wiring.php?Page=supportHome This wiring concept, a proper star grounding system and equipment isolation are the first steps in a holistic electrical design that will facilitate experiments showing the differences in cables. |
