I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
dracule1 OP 913 posts 06-13-2016 9:17am "Geoffkait, no wiggling needed. You even quoted me, in which I clearly stated that I never claimed there is no difference in cable sound, and no test is perfect. I even stated cables can make a difference in sound in my original post. Was I not clear enough? And why only bring up the Minnesota test and not the others? Cherry picking are we?"
unless everyone agrees on terms such as "ridiculously expensive" and "significantly better" there will never we any resolution. Besides what percentage of audiophiles actually spend $100K or more on cables? What percentage spends $10K or more on cables? If you don't know say you don't know. Pardon me for saying so but your angst and disgust, if real, seems kind of like a tempest in a teapot.
Geoff, how many times have you stuck your foot in your mouth by not paying attention to my words or twisting my words to fit your argument? Now you're changing the subject cuz you got nothing. Give it up. You're boring me.
Then why are you here pennsy? You've shown no ability to provide any advice. Spelling isn't your only problem, you struggle with grammar as well. Hopefully, English is not your first language. If it is, you write at a 3rd grade level.
Just because you suck up to and agree with the OP does not make you right. That is the fun part of cable debates, nobody wins, nobody loses. The wheel just goes round and round. I've been watching this debate spin for decades now. You have brought nothing new to the table, besides your petty bitterness towards me. All you are doing is pissing in the wind.
dracule1 OP 914 posts 06-13-2016 11:04am "Geoff, how many times have you stuck your foot in your mouth by not paying attention to my words or twisting my words to fit your argument? Now you’re changing the subject cuz you got nothing. Give it up. You’re boring me."
So, you’re mad because someone somewhere, at least according to you, spent $100K on cables, which I actually doubt. Your whole thesis is that it’s stupid to spend a lot of money on cables because there is no significant difference in sound quality between relatively inexpensive cables and super expensive cables. Yet you seem to be gracefully backing off that position by agreeing that there are, according to blind tests you provided, significant differences among cables, even when the "expensive" cables involved in the test are only $1K. You got some ’splainin’ to do.
I’m not twisting your words. Those are your words. I don’t have to twist them. They are what they are. This all appears to be nothing more than a bad case of buyer's remorse. Heck, you're complaining about $2K cables. One can only imagine what this would be like if you had spent say $20K on the cables. Real scary.
If the whole world is out of mind why shouldn't audiophiles be? Personally, I save on many other things to be able to buy good audio stuff. So $10k for cables is insanity, and $1k for a dinner for two is not? $3k for a bottle of lovely French wine, anyone? Not me, I'd rather go with $10k cables if I have to.
Still, I don't buy Levi's jeans, I buy vintage Diesel and Dior on ebay. And I never actually tried $3k wine, I tried something close to $1k but I didn't pay for it, it was a gift, and the one who gave it to me didn't pay all that much. That Bordeaux vintage was great, can't compare it to your usual $100 bottles.
Price should never be the determining factor for what one buys other than to stay in budget as needed. Wires are no exception. It just seems sillier when people spend large sums of cash on things to solve a relatively simple problem that might have been solved just as well or maybe even better perhaps for less.
"It just seems sillier when people spend large sums of cash on things to solve a relatively simple problem that might have been solved just as well or maybe even better perhaps for less."
Very well said. This was what I was pointing out in my original post. There's more to be gained, for example, from simple affordable room treatments than any expensive cable can provide.
Geoff, I gave you way too much credit. You’re vaporware. Not much to be gained by responding to your circular baiting , but I know you will continue cuz that’s what you get off on. Prove me wrong. But I know you’ll prove me right by posting more dribble. I will thank you for it when you do.
I thought the OP might actually benefit from hearing from someone who has quite rationally decided to spend >$10K on a piece of wire and >$100K on all the cables in my system
Firstly anyone with any sort of listening experience can appreciate that cables do sound different (note not necessarily better or worse, just different). If you doubt this then using anything other than the manufacturer's stock is a complete waste of time for you. In the case of my most expensive cable purchase (8' speaker connection) I listened to wires between $15K and $70K and chose the cheapest, it sounded best to me in my system and, surprise surprise it also seemed best "value for money"
Secondly the simple "either/or" of cables or other spending on other items such as room treatment or component upgrades is bogus. At this level of spending you should be using extensive and carefully selected room treatment - acoustic treatment, cables and isolation (stands, footers etc.)
As an aside don't you hate the glamor shots of one NYC dealer who shall remain nameless who parades installs of multi $100K systems into NY apartments with acres of glass and bare walls and no treatment in sight?
Most importantly the comparison of cable vs component upgrade is equally bogus. The reality is components at this level and up (and arguably at all levels) demonstrate the incremental improvements the right cables and other accessories can deliver. To give a specific example a DCS Paganini stack ($50K) sounds great out of the box with the stock cables but over the years I have spent $30K+ on BNC, AES/EBU and Power Cords all with great benefit -- and still have other steps to make. Yes I could have gotten a Vivaldi DAC for the same spend but each incremental step gave benefits I could hear and enjoy, and all of the cables are transferable if/when I do get that Vivaldi.
So in conclusion for me at least cable upgrades do give valid returns in the context of an appropriately set up system especially as they meaningful improvements at relatively low per unit incremental cost - often much less than a comparable component upgrade (especially if cables are bought in the secondary market or at deep discount dealer demo as the majority of mine were)
folkfreak, I get it and it's nice that you explained why you purchased expensive cables. If I had the money I would. I don't understand why people are so quick to judge others and name call. What I get out of this thread is for me to be more humble. In the future when I respond to threads I will never say, product "A" is better than product "B", but simply state my preference and why.
Folkfreak, have you ever tried cables in the $300 to $2000 range instead of $15k to $70k range? Or did you consider cables in this range below what you would consider given your expensive system? You stated cables sound different, which I agree with, and are system dependent, which I also agree with. Wouldn’t you have saved tons by trying out these affordable cables that may sound just as good or even better if you gave them a chance? The problem with many audiophiles who own expensive speakers and electronics is that they seem to be compelled to buy mega expensive cables to justify their expensive gear. They think you have to buy expensive cables because only expensive cables can bring out the best in their gear. At one point, I thought this way, and so I auditioned many of these overhyped cables and compared them affordable cables many rich audiophiles would never consider. Guess what? There’s no consistent correlation between cable price and good sound. Some of these expensive cables sound very high fi that gets your attentention with too much detail, huge diffuse sound stage, etc and in the long run tiring to listen to. And the worse thing you can do is buy expensive cables based on audiomag reviews, but many do without ever comparing them to affordable cables.
BTW, dCS equipment never sounded correct to my ears. No amount of cabling can correct what I consider is inherent flaw.
Jafant, there are a lot in this range with some starting below $100. And like I said cabling is highly system dependent, and the only way you’ll find out if it’s good for you is to try it out in your system. Some of the manufactures I can recommend are dB Audio Labs (USB cable), Signal Cable (ICs and speaker cables), DH Labs (power cord), Grover Huffman (ICs), Triode Wire labs (power cord), Ridge Street Audio (sorry defunct but you may find used), Kaplan Cable (now Waveform Fidelity), Reality Cable, etc. Don’t let the affordable price fool you. Most of these manufacturers will give you a free in home trial, which is critical. Good luck.
You remind me of the guidance I received from a mentor as a young man. He always counseled his colleagues to treat those lacking knowledge with respect as most are good people doing the best they can in life, but always be mindful of people lacking knowledge to such an extreme degree that they do not recognize they lack knowledge. They are the dangerous ones.
Through that deficiency into the mix with the pathology of a child that was incessantly beat-up on the playground as a grade-schooler and threads like this get started.
Watts, we don’t need to hear about your life story here. What’s with you and the psychoanalysis? You’re an engineer by your own admission. So you failed as a psychotherapist in your past life, and I'm sorry for your past failings. But this is not the forum to solve your personal problems.
dracule 1, OK, I'll try to be reasonable but hard to do so when your response to my polite posting is to immediately lambast my choice of digital equipment. Perhaps you've never heard DCS gear with the best cabling 😏
And yes I have evolved in the current system. Some examples
Digital: Veloce Black Cat -> Nordost Valhalla -> Audioquest Eagle Eye -> AudioQuest Wild -> Transparent Reference XL (note that these are not all increases in price, it went up and down)
Analog Interconnect: Nordost Tyr -> Nordost Valhalla -> WEL Signature (big jump at the end I know but I got a great deal on a 10M length of the latter which I needed and the impact was amazing)
Speaker: Nordost SPM (yes I've been around this game for a while!) -> Nordost Valhalla -> Synergistic Galileo LE (as you can see I can keep cables for 10-20 years)
Power: Nordost Brahma -> Valhalla -> AQ WEL Signature -> Synergistic Galileo LE
jafant -- re auditioning and your point dracule about most $$ is not best, most recent big change was speaker cable. Three local dealers allowed me home demo on Nordost Odin V1 ($35K), AQ WEL Signature (a bi-wire pair no less at $75K!) and SR Galileo LE at $15K. WEL was flat and boring, Odin was very clean but slightly lean and Galileo was just right. Subsequently I've improved the performance of the Galileo by adding a SR Transporter, nice that you can make a cable sound even better
So dracule we folks with money are not stupid as you constantly imply, we care about sound and want value for money but unlike some commenters on this thread we are open minded and happy for all the help the helpful people on these boards and the dealers we work with give us. Side note the dealer who loaned me the Odin actually lost $900 out of pocket as he accidentally put through my AmEx charge and then had to reverse it, for those who think dealers don't have to work for their money it's a salutary tale
mapman13,395 posts06-13-2016 9:31pmJoecasey it's pretty simple really. It's called having a rational discussion. Personal attacks are the thing not called for.
Ya Joe Casey no personal attacks. Feel free to call people "fools, gullible, crazy, dumb, brain-washed, audio-fools, suckers and retarded" like the OP does but NO personal attacks or you are gunna get a woopin.
If I had $50k speakers and $35k amps I would still compare $2k speaker cables to $10k cables, so I think this point is valid. But I would not try $300 cable. Let's not exaggerate both sides of the argument. Really good Hi-Fi is expensive and has the right to be but it doesn't have to be ridiculously expensive. I never touch both Nordost and Audioquest, by the way, price no object.
Folkfreak, don’t be so sensitive. I didn’t lambast the dCS. It’s just not what I call realistic based on my experience as a regular concert attendee of classical and jazz music and as a classical guitar player. I love my Golden Gate DAC, but you will likely hate it because it’s the antithesis of the dCS. But I wouldn’t care if you lambasted the GG because we obviously have different tastes in what music should sound like.
Nordost SPM? Remember the original van den hul D102 IC from the 80s? I think I got you beat.
Getting back to the important subject at hand, you didn’t answer my original question. Did you compare your expensive cables to the cables in the $300-$2000 range? My guess is you have not. I have heard the top of the line offerings from Nordost, Transparent, Audioquest, MIT, etc. While some are very good, just as good or better cables can be found for a lot less depending on your system. A big chunk of the cost of these megabuck cables goes into advertising, but I’m assuming you know this if you’re a seasoned audiophile.
If you were wise with your money, wouldn’t you have given these "lesser" cables from less known manufacturers a chance? I did and saved tens of thousands of dollars over the years.
As for cable dealers working hard for a sale, I can assure you he hit the proverbial jackpot when he sold you those Odins even after losing $900, which btw is his own fault for not paying attention. Some of these cables you’ve tried have some of the highest markups in the industry. He probably made more by selling a pair of Odins than selling many of his speakers or electronics. According to my industry sources, the markup of some of these cables can be as high as 10:1.
If you feel happy with you’re purchase knowing what I’ve told you, then oh well.
Inna, why wouldn’t you try a $300 cable? Just because of the price you’re assuming it wouldn’t sound good? IME, that is one of the biggest fallacies in high end. I gave it a try and found cables in this price range competing with cables 10 to 20x the price. These are audio cables, not speakers or amplifiers that require in depth knowledge of electronics and physics, although some cable manufacturers will argue otherwise. It doesn’t take a genius to come up with great sounding cables. But it does take a marketing genius to convince audiophiles to buy mega buck cables - Oh wait, I take that back.
Ok dracule1 -- for one last time let’s deconstruct your response and hopefully 😕 help you understand how you come across
It’s just not what I call realistic based on my experience as a regular concert attendee of classical and jazz music and as a classical guitar player.
Implication -- I’m the only one that knows what "real music" sounds like, my ears are better than yours, your opinion is worthless.
Note that your original ding at DCS was
BTW, dCS equipment never sounded correct to my ears. No amount of cabling can correct what I consider is inherent flaw.
"Never sounded correct to my ears" is fine, we each have preferences but you had to add "inherent flaw" which is an absolute statement and comes across as pejorative
Getting back to the important subject at hand, you didn’t answer my original question.
Sorry, how was it not clear when I described my process in a DCS rig of going from the "free" BNC and Firewire included in the box, to a $500 AQ Eagle Eye, to $1000 Valhalla (bought used), to $2000 AQ Wild to $3000 Transparent Ref XL. A good cross section of manufacturers and price points all with the same equipment and improvements at every step that were obvious. Could I have found other cables that worked? Maybe, but as others have noted my time is valuable and the combination of dealer recommendations (Brian Berdan) and manufacturer recommendations (John Quick) led me to the Transparent. Same story on the other sorts of cables in my system, especially power cords where I’ve been amazed by the improvements that have been possible.
If you were wise with your money
Another insult for no reason. I also spend money on mechanical watches ... and I like to buy my wife jewelry and first edition books, would you like to criticize that as well?
I did and saved tens of thousands of dollars over the years.
Bully for you. I’ve wasted way more money than my cables cost buying a new sports car and seeing it depreciate .. so what, who cares? At the end of the day every $ we spend helps someone else make a living, isn’t that a good thing, called capitalism? Spend money and feel happy, otherwise I think we have something called a recession.
Some of these cables you’ve tried have some of the highest markups in the industry. According to my industry source, it can be as high as 10:1.
Seems you don’t understand pricing theory, Dealer markup, manufacturers cost are all irrelevant -- what matters is price:value for the end buyer everything else is irrelevant. As it is apparent you as an end user place an extreme premium on "getting a deal". Have you never purchased software? What do you think that costs to make? As a consultant for the pharma industry I have a pretty good handle on the complexities of pricing and personally have no issue with the same manufacturer having a markup of 2:1 on their cheapest cable and 100:1 on their top of line, the latter will sell in tiny quantities relative to the former and btw the ads (and the trickle down from the positive feedback on the top of line) drives sales of the former. Plus I appreciate the dealer service I get. This is the same in every industry so why do we get so bothered?
If you feel happy with you’re purchase knowing what I’ve told you, then oh well
This just about takes the cake -- Dracule the savior here to tell it as it is. It's great you help people find bargains and different lines to consider but why do you have to be so holier than thou in the process? Oh and by the way I, like you, trust my ears at the end of the day and am very happy with my system. A quick review of my other posts show the small adjustments and tweaks I enjoy to get the most out of it, cables are part and not by any means the most important (acoustics and isolation matter more) but making those small changes whether they cost $1 or $10K is all part of the fun and fun is what it should be, not winning arguments so on that note this audiophile will exeunt this thread and return it to the OP
Oops, I’m not up to date pricing on BNC cables for digital gear. My bad. For that my apologies. It would be helpful if you put the pricing in your original comment. After all, this is about pricing of cables. You can’t automatically assume we know the prices of all your cables. I was concentrating more on your other cables, but again it would help if you list what you paid for them. I know some are expensive as hell.
But boy, you’re really reading into my comments for things that weren’t implied. I have my own taste, just as you have yours. If you thought that my opinion on what sounds more realistic to me as being superior to your opinion, then you got some inferiority complex to deal with. For this, I owe no apology.
If you have no issues with 100:1 markup, then good for you. Most of us do because we’re not filthy rich.
So because I like affordable cables I’m looking for an extreme deal? These cables I buy are not discounted, and I pay the retail price because they're affordable. So I’m cheap scraping at the bottom of the barrel for the best deal? Here is where you’re coming off sounding like a complete douche. I buy based on what sounds good to me within my means. Some are expensive and some aren’t. Some I pay full retail, some I don’t. So if you’re looking down on me because I can’t afford some of the rediculously priced items you can afford, then we all know you’re the kind of audiophile that gives a bad rap to the audiophile community.
Frankly, I have no issues with those who place "an extreme premium on getting a deal" because that’s the only way some people can afford things that are normally out of there reach. People like you who can afford expensive sports cars, mechanical watches, jewelry for the wife, first edition books, dCS gear, Odin cables have lost touch with people of lesser means. You’re failed trickle down economic theory of "if I’m rich and spend money, the little people will benefit" pretty much says it all. This reminds me why I don’t hang around with the filthy rich.
We're all as mad as hatters regarding this tinker.
If one's budget has the bandwidth to accomodate expensive equipment, or cabling -more power to you. (Wow, there's a couple of unintended associated references...)
I've been disappointed by a few of my gear purchases over the years but I've yet to utterly regret any I've made. As I've moved up the proverbial food chain I've experienced "wow" moments and "wtf?" moments alike, neither necessarily derived from the dollars spent.
"
I buy based on what sounds good to me within my means" So the question then to you is why do you demean the purchasing decisions of others that do likewise but at a different price point? " So if you’re loking down on me because I can’t afford some of the rediculously priced items you can afford" . Not sure I've read anyone looking down on you, rather they are taking a different position that you can't seem to get over. What difference does it really make to you if folkfreak or anyone else is in a position to possibly spend more on cables than either you can or choose too? If you think for instance that Signal Cables does the trick for you great; I've had them in my system and they were "okay" at best so I replaced them. So what!
"
People like you who can afford expensive........... have lost touch with people of lesser means". Come on man, if someone can afford to spend more than you or someone else they shouldn't? Sounds like sour grapes
Not me I think I don’t recall ever saying anyone specifically spent too much money. It’s completely up to them what they choose to buy obviously.
I am supporting the argument in general though that there may be less expensive alternatives to some more expensive products that may perform as well or better. That’s good news for those on a limited budget and for the audio industry that might like to have more potential customers. . For those who are not, price does not matter and I’m sure their wires sound great. I’ve heard some very good systems with some very expensive wires.
I did say God bless everyone who is happy with their music. What else can I say there?
Does this then make some people "out of their mind" as proposed? That’s strictly a judgement call that can’t be controlled, but it should not bother those who knowingly arrived wherever they are and are happy being there.
Trying to be rational about it.
Of course one could always turn to good quality pro audio wires and avoid the high end audio murk altogether, but that's another story....
facten561 posts06-13-2016 9:40pmdracule1 - too each his own, you spend your money on what you find works for you and let others spend theirs as suits their needs.
folkfreak - really nice system!
facten,
You normally make very thoughtful posts but your logic in this case is lost on me. Under your approach, how would Drac work on his self-image? There is little here about cables? Nothing else explain this insanity.
mapman, I was not quoting you , if you look I prefaced the post dracule1 , they are his quotes.
I'll ask dracule1 a question , what's the difference in making a decision to purchase an expensive (new or used) DAC like the Golden Gate when there are presumably good sounding less expensive DACs, and someone making a decision to purchase expensive vs inexpensive cables?
This thread is off the hook. Mapman was asking the other dude, JMc, not facten. JMc was not quoting Mapman in the body of his post. Hel-loo! Who’s on first? :-)
Not me I think I don’t recall ever saying anyone specifically spent too much money. It’s completely up to them what they choose to buy obviously.
The original quote about looking for rational was yours. The rest of the comments about spending too much or not is simply the general theme of ALL of these type of cable threads.
The names change, but the basic comments stay the same.
"Wire is wire"
"No, it's not"
Same as it ever was, year after year, decade after decade.....
I’ve stated many times that I do not think ANY two things are exactly the same so I do not think "wire is wire", a fuse is a fuse, etc.
The debate is always about various paths people take to a good solution and cost is always a part of that discussion.
I don’t see a problem. We know that everyone will never agree on exactly the same solution and that everyone wants the best sound possible that they can afford.
the path is an interesting question, in part because there are hundreds of products available and thousands of potential combinations, so we all have to find a way to try what we can, knowing we can never try most products or combinations...
"I don’t see a problem. We know that everyone will never agree on exactly the same solution and that everyone wants the best sound possible that they can afford."
Pretty sure audiophiles don't think too much about affordability. Any more than a rat in a crack experiment. But it's pretty to think so.
The money issue is a little bit of a red herring. I’ve been to people’s homes with expensive gear in place, but very poor set-up, and no thought to maximizing what the person has--I’m not talking about expensive tweaks, but basic stuff, like layout, AC power, turntable set-up and isolation, room treatment, etc. I’m sure all of you have had the experience of hearing a system that doesn’t purport to be state of the art that sounds great, because care was taken in the selection and set up of the components as a system in a given room. For someone at home, striving to get the best sound obtainable-- that last 5% is often challenging and as I think Mike Lavigne said here somewhere, often makes the biggest difference once everything else is dialed in. Cables can be part of the equation- not necessarily the most expensive, but the ones that make the system shine with the fewest negatives. I’m not an absolutist about any of this- if you think old WE cable, or some very basic, inexpensive product sounds good in your system, go for it. This hobby started as DIY and I respect the people who are willing to do the work on that level too, rather than just buying the latest sonic bauble. In the long run, I’d bet some of us have spent more money on switching gear, "upgrading," changing components and buying modestly priced "tweaks" over the years that are now in the graveyard of forgotten audio than the cost of some fancy cable. Anybody doing this hobby for any length of time realizes that they are really doing it for themselves- few family members or outsiders are going to care much one way or the other. I appreciate the lure of "OMG, this cable will change your life," but hopefully, most of us have been around long enough to realize that you have to make evaluations based on listening in your system, hopefully over enough time to hear not only the "positives" of any change, but the negatives as well. Remember how, in the old Absolute Sound days when Harry P. was in top form, and he would write about a component that had no sonic signature, was absolutely revealing, and gave him a entirely new perspective on the rest of the gear? And some issues later, that same piece of gear was revealed to be flawed in some way? (Not faulting HP, it was the nature of his adventure, in those days, and was quite fun to read about). But, that elusive chase for the ideal? The pinnacle? At some point --at least for me--it is a tail chasing exercise and consumes more money, time and effort than the results. I think if you buy good gear, it can give pleasure for a long time. That might include cables that, after evaluation, seem to "gel" with your particular combination of components and your ears. At that point, it can be money well spent if it enables you to use the system for its intrinsic purpose, rather than listening solely to figure out what needs to be improved. Not an easy place to get to-- but we all have that point of diminishing returns where expectations, money, research, time and effort lead us (or ought to lead us) to a place where we say "hey, this sounds really great- I know where the weaknesses are, and I’m happy with the cost/benefit I’ve struck to get there." That point is obviously a very individual choice, and depends as much on the obsessive nature of the enthusiast as it does on their finances. I would assume, perhaps wrongly, that some reason and judgement goes into drawing those lines for each of us.
Dracule1, I currently run older Purist Audio Colossus fluid cables that cost over $1k new. In the past I tried couple of $300 cables from Audioquest and Cardas, I also tried a few inexpensive interconnects from them, from Purist and Tara. The probability that any $300 cable will sound better with any components than what I have now is extremely low though not zero. However, I could, if I could get a hold of them, try DiMarzio super M-path cables. They were, I think, $600 new but no longer made, I guess. I have his $150 M-path RCA cable and it's very good especially with analog source, but $800 older Purist Maximus and $1200 Colossus are better. Yes, in my system to my ear. But for $150 it is a hell of a cable.
To very shortly prove the topic, simply cut-paste selected posts and send e-mail to shrink. You will DEFINITELY get an immediate response to seek psychiatric attention.
"For someone at home, striving to get the best sound obtainable-- that last 5% is often challenging and as I think Mike Lavigne said here somewhere, often makes the biggest difference once everything else is dialed in."
It’s highly probable that the remaining percentage is a long way from 5%, not to be too argumentative about it, but I’d put a number on closer to 50%. There are simply too many things out there these days that have the potential to double the performance. It all depends on where a particular system happens to lie in the overall scale of things. I know what you’re thinking, "But MY system has only 5% to go until the Absolute Sound." There are no absolutes.
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