It is incorrect to use % in the assessment of the sound. It is either acceptable or not. So..expensive cables are worth paying for, sometimes.
Are audiophiles still out of their minds?
I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
486 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
whart930 posts06-15-2016 3:16pmDon’t take the "percentages" as literal, folks. I don’t, and perhaps I didn’t make that clear enough in my earlier post.In algebra of complex numbers, each number can be represented with real and imaginary part similar to (5+3i) where 5 is real number and 3 is imaginary followed by letter ’i’. Don't take it for multiplication with variable. It's different case |
Wow! Let the record show that on 6-15-2016 at 5:26 pm EDT Geoff submitted a post that I actually agree with 100% :-) As for the meaning of Czarivey's post to which he was responding, I'm not sure but my guess would be he was implying that a reason sonic quality should not be characterized in percentage terms is that a component of such assessments tends to be imaginary in many cases :-) JL35, thanks very much for your comments earlier in the thread about my post that was quoted by Wattsperchannel. Regards, -- Al |
geoffkait3,587 posts06-15-2016 12:00pmTo my knowledge no audiophile ever thought his sound was unacceptable. Even when it sounds like cats being tortured.or acceptable for that matter. geoffkait3,587 posts06-15-2016 4:26pm Thus the square of the imaginary number 3i is -9.True but still hard to imagine. |
Facten, "ask dracule1 a question , what's the difference in making a decision to purchase an expensive (new or used) DAC like the Golden Gate when there are presumably good sounding less expensive DACs, and someone making a decision to purchase expensive vs inexpensive cables?" Glad you asked, but let me rephrase you're question to be consistent with my original post. Why spend tens of thousands of dollar on wire when other components in your system like acoustic room treatment, speakers, DACs, turntables, amps make more of a difference in sound and often cost less than wire? For example, a 10' pair of Nordost Odin 2 speaker wire retails for $46k. That's close to 3x the cost of the Golden Gate DAC. And more than 12x the cost of my acoutic room treatment. Which do you honestly think makes more of an improvement in your system? IME, the audio wire loses embarrassingly. The GG DAC is hand built, contains components that require in-depth knowledge of engineering, is orders of magnitude more complex in parts and construction, etc. Acoustic room treatment makes the biggest improvement IME. OTOH, there's no rocket science in audio wire construction (I know high priced cable manufacturers will argue otw. E.g. electrons in our wire travel at the speed of light. 😒) . Audiophile wire can be made in miles by a machine unless you're boutique one man operation working out of your home. Most of these high prices wire is copper, not gold or palladium or platinum. There's nothing about audiophile wire that justifies some of the stratospheric prices asked by many of these cable manufacturers. |
Dracule1, unless you are a rocket scientist you cannot say if this kind of science is required or not to design or build a great cable. You simply are not qualified to judge it from this angle. And another point. Some people have enough funds for everything including $70k cables, but I don't think that you do. Nor do I. Yes, wealth distribution in this country is far from fair. I don't like it but I can tolerate it unless it is totally out of control. Can you? |
inna and others here left shaking their heads, I design and build high precision electrical components for folks like Mercedes Benz (S-Series), US Military (M-1 Abrams Tank and F-16 Fighter Jet), and the National Atomic Particle Accelerator (Fermi Lab). I suppose we could discuss Gauss's laws, Maxwell Equations, eddy currents, skin effect etc., but it would serve no purpose here. Get close to the the facts and the OP will revert to anecdotal gibberish or personal insult. The OP just appears to enjoy making others feel bad......period. If you corner him with facts which demonstrate the preposterous nature of his claims, he will retaliate with a personal dagger like his endless insults to Geoff, his comments to folkfreak regarding the SQ of his DCS stack or to me regarding my Nordost cables, the merits of which are laughable on their face. His stock in trade seams to be the nebulous because that allows him to play his game. For instance, when I point out the vagaries of using poorly designed DBT's (i.e., those lacking degrees of freedom, statistical significance or variable control), in his very next posts he references two more DBT's of dubious design and doubles down on their use as justification of an irrational position. Poorly designed experiments are used in marketing and politics; not to determine the truth. This is not the behavior of a person seeking the truth, but rather avoiding it because it gets in the way of his joy ride. There are literally thousands of permutations of a DBT-DOE that can create completely misleading results. Take components with an impedance matching too close to parity. The worse a cables impedance characteristics the better the system is likely to perform. A coat hanger will likely sound better than a Nordost wire and a long coat hanger will sound better than a short one. This proves absolutely nothing. No thoughtful electrical engineer would question that a nordost wire mated with a system designed to work best with the nordost wire will reach sonic heights well beyond a system made with the equivalent design approach using a coat hanger. Yet people get these issues confused, or worse, knowingly use the confusion for devious purposes. |
This post speaks volumes----a lot of butt hurt here. |
From the OP's perspective I could probably advocate the point that most components are seriously overpriced too. As an example, you can get a great if not outstanding sounding acoustic guitar made by a famous Spanish master for, say, $7k-$10k. It takes talent and decades of work to be able to build an instrument like that. What equipment can you get for $10K ? Decent sounding Rowland or Gryphon integrated? Not much. So they are overpriced big time too, correct? |
Inna, "Dracule1, unless you are a rocket scientist you cannot say if this kind of science is required or not to design or build a great cable. You simply are not qualified to judge it from this angle. And another point. Some people have enough funds for everything including $70k cables, but I don't think that you do. Nor do I. Yes, wealth distribution in this country is far from fair. I don't like it but I can tolerate it unless it is totally out of control. Can you?" Goodpoint. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I have physicist friends and colleagues, one of whom works for NASA and another of whom is a die hard audiophile! When I show some of them, who are not audiophiles, cable prices and cable manufacturer's white sheets, they can't believe the cost and the unsupported dribble. They go on to shred every voodoo claim by these high priced manufacturers. So can I get some love here 😘? BTW, I was a chemistry major in college, so I do have more than basic understanding of physics and materials science. If I save up for several years, I could afford $70k cables, but why would I waste my money on them? I would put that into my retirement account. You don't think $100k for audio wire is totally out of control? I guess we just have very different tolerance levels for the absurd. Anyway, thanks for your input. |
"From the OP’s perspective I could probably advocate the point that most components are seriously overpriced too. As an example, you can get a great if not outstanding sounding acoustic guitar made by a famous Spanish master for, say, $7k-$10k. It takes talent and decades of work to be able to build an instrument like that. What equipment can you get for $10K ? Decent sounding Rowland or Gryphon integrated? Not much. So they are overpriced big time too, correct?" Being a classical guitarist myself, I really appreciate your comment here. England, France, and Spain all have master luthiers who have devoted their entire adult lives to their craft. Some of these guitars can take months to build and are true works of musical art, yet their prices are still less than most of these overmarketed cables. Intolerable, no? I guess not to the filthy rich audiophiles - my apologies to the filthy rich audiophiles for offending their delicate egos. |
| Post removed |
"The OP just appears to enjoy making others feel bad......period. If you corner him with facts which demonstrate the preposterous nature of his claims, he will retaliate with a personal dagger like his endless insults to Geoff, his comments to folkfreak regarding the SQ of his DCS stack or to me regarding my Nordost cables, the merits of which are laughable on their face." Actually, I like making people feel good, if you’ve read my posts. 😘 As for those who feel bad because of my views on audiophile cables, get over it. It’s just an Audiogon discussion thread. I like Geoff. He’s just a smartass. I see no harm in him. Folkfreak is so rich he doesn’t know what to do with his money, by his own admission. He had his say and left because he has better things to do. Watts, You on the other hand, are a disturbed individual. You keep stalking me. You give me the creeps, man. 😱😳😮 |
Dracule1, let's just not call them 'filthy rich', they are simply rich. We don't want to start a class civil war here, really. If you ask me, I would never pay $70k for any cables regardless of my finances. Yes, it's too much! And how much is not too much? Well, I am not sure, $15k for a masterpiece perhaps. I had no idea that great acoustic guitars are also made in England and France, I thought only in Spain. Yes, I have a high tolerance for the absurd but not unlimited. And I am tired of paying $20 per pound for my favourite European cheese ! Too much, goddamn it ! |
Inna, ok. I'll call them "wonderfully rich". How's that for political correctness? I wasn't trying to start a class war, as I wouldn't mind being "wonderfully rich" myself. But I wouldn't spend $10k for cables even if I hit a record Power Ball jackpot. Oh yes. There are other countries that make excellent classical guitars besides Spain. If I had the money, I would spend $10k on a classical guitar made by a master luthier. My favorite classical guitarist is Julian Bream, an Englishman, who was trained by the father of modern classical guitar Andre Segovia, a Spaniard. European cheese? I thought velveeta was the bomb! I'm glad I don't have expensive taste in cheese. I have taste buds of a goat. |
| Post removed |
dracule1 OP937 posts06-17-2016 12:36amBTW, I was a chemistry major in college, so I do have more than basic understanding of physics and materials science. Ok Drac, I will give you credit for your humor. That is friggin hilarious. |
Watts, you're the self proclaimed master engineer, but all you do is throw around "decision matrix" and "permutations" to make yourself sound intelligent. But we all know you have real insecurity issues to deal with. You gotta stop bringing up your childhood, economic status, and your "awesome" job with Mercedes, BMW, and US military. No one here has posted so much about how great they are. Love the way you look down upon me and attack me, while proclaiming yourself as humble fair minded individual and the all knowing psychoanalyst. "Hell has no fury over a woman scorned" aptly describes you. How's that for hilarious? |
geoffkait3,589 posts06-15-2016 5:26pmAct-too-ally both 5 and 3 are real numbers in Czarivey’s example. The expression 3i is, however, an imaginary number. Thus the square of the imaginary number 3i is -9. As Al I totally agree! Please be also noted that MAGNITUDE of complex number that only has imaginary part IS totally NEGATIVE! ISN’T THAT SUPER DARN COOL? |
I'm with @wattsperchannel on this...@dracule1 comes off as whiny. I have no qualms if you want to put $70K in your retirement plan. I also don't mind if you want to spend $70K on cables; whatever blows your hair back.. To me, there is a clear difference here and this is not the same type of spend. One is an investment and the other is discretionary spend. Currently there's a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2's for sale here asking $14,340 ($35,850 original price.) I highly doubt audiophiles are in it for the investment... Furthermore, who care about what people make on this thread. Be happy for those that have financial freedom as well as those working toward it. As much as I'm turned off by people that constantly brag about what they have which to me is a very 'new money' thing to do, I am equally or possibly even more so turned off by people that state "I don't have that type of money" or "I can't afford that." I find it off putting and a bad look. And please...let's not start talking about what classes we took in high school as a means to somehow qualify our chops... |
asp307, "Currently there’s a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2’s for sale here asking $14,340 ($35,850 original price.) " Guess what...if this person is one of those special Nordost dealers and selling it for $14,340, he is still making a healthy profit. If this person bought it for the original list price, you know my opinion on that. "As much as I’m turned off by people that constantly brag about what they have which to me is a very ’new money’ thing to do, I am equally or possibly even more so turned off by people that state "I don’t have that type of money" or "I can’t afford that." I find it off putting and a bad look." Ok. Whatever blows your hair back. "And please...let’s not start talking about what classes we took in high school as a means to somehow qualify our chops..." Who ever talked about high school classes? From what I can tell, most people have college and post graduate degrees here. Are you saying these science and engineering degrees have absolutely no bearing on what qualifies someone to give there opinions? "I’m with @wattsperchannel on this...@dracule1 comes off as whiny." And you’re not? Get real. |
"Currently there’s a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2’s for sale here asking $14,340 ($35,850 original price.) " To which dracule1 replied, "Guess what...if this person is one of those special Nordost dealers and selling it for $14,340, he is still making a healthy profit. If this person bought it for the original list price, you know my opinion on that." "If" is the operative word here. Nobody pays retail. Hel-loo! And why the USED audiophile market is SO strong, particularly since the Big Short selling scandal. Geez, high end audiophile cables are probably the most recession proof audio product in the world. Much better than real estate or the stock? A clever fellow can actually make money buying and selling cables. Over here we can just borrow really expensive high end cables from the Cable Company at no charge. Kind of a no brainer, eh? An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. cheerios |
"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance." Au contraire, mon frère. You already mentioned the "used" route. Remember when "upgrade" didn't mean "flavor of the month" but the gradual building of a system over time? For some of us of an age, I started in high school, and built my system further while in college. I didn't really have much money to spend on gear, but it took priority over other things someone else might spend their disposable income on. When the SP-11 preamp came out in in the late '80s, I bought an SP-10 mk ii, which wasn't cheap, but to me, worth every dollar. By then, I had a decent job, but it was still real money to me. Some folks I know who have true wealth wouldn't spend a fraction of this on audio gear (maybe that's why they are wealthy, but they have different priorities). Others- some poor as church mice-- have killer systems, built over the years. (Yes, they had inside prices working in the industry, or spent judiciously, but were hardly "rich."). To me, the real answer to all of this is to do your own evaluations, find the bargains or overlooked pieces of gear on the used market and make your own decisions on what sounds "right" without following the herd. The DIY camp--which I really am not adept at because I lack vital skills--is where a lot of the action is. |
whart, " To me, the real answer to all of this is to do your own evaluations, find the bargains or overlooked pieces of gear on the used market and make your own decisions on what sounds "right" without following the herd. The DIY camp--which I really am not adept at because I lack vital skills--is where a lot of the action is. " You got that right. Look for overlooked pieces of gear, like vintage SS Japanese gear from the 80's and 70's. Very affordable and sounds better than some of the most highly touted gear today. Don't follow the herd and buy the most advertised gear, which is usually the most expensive. And DIY is probably the best thing an audiophile can do for himself to get some of the best sound with the lowest cost, provided he has the time to learn. DIY cable is the easiest thing to make and just as good or better than half of the cables costing thousands of dollars. |
This has turned into one hell of a pissing contest. Several times the streams have crossed in general agreement (not necessarily on things audio) but the animosity that has built up and the innate hubris seems to have blinded the participants to this. Keep it up and there'll be no dessert. :-) Carry on. |
Dracula Playbook Step 1) Bash the wealthy by any means available. Step 2) Add the appearance of credibility to your positions, by doing so in an arena where facts are complex and subjectivity hides true intent. Step 3) If someone figures out your purpose, revert to a higher level of personal insult in hopes of driving them from the conversation. Step 4) Repeat. The scars run deep in this one. |
"And please...let’s not start talking about what classes we took in high school as a means to somehow qualify our chops..." Who ever talked about high school classes? From what I can tell, most people have college and post graduate degrees here. Are you saying these science and engineering degrees have absolutely no bearing on what qualifies someone to give there opinions? Not sure if you actually use your chemistry degree for your livelihood or if you are too busy channeling your inner Llobet but I haven't seen much detailed feedback from you on why these cables aren't worth their price. Have you A/B tested a wide range of cables in various set-ups? What steps have you taken to deduce a cable isn't worth 'X' amount? Or is your opinion formed on your own set of circumstances and what you find to be unacceptable because of the price tag it wields? We agree that we both feel that prices are substantial and over the top so it's not all disagreement. But what I find over the top is acceptable to someone else. "I’m with @wattsperchannel on this...@dracule1 comes off as whiny." And you’re not? Get real. We disagree here. I am genuinely happy for people and their success by however they measure it (healthy kids, meaningful job, financial freedom, totally awesome hi-fi..ahah.. etc.) I guess I'm just not sure why you speak down to the "filthy rich" the way you are as if it's a negative to be financially successful...what purpose does that serve? Hence, it sounds whiny... |
| Post removed |
Bringing up credentials, especially when they aren’t particularly relevant, such as chemistry in a physics debate or discussion, is what we refer to as Appeal to Authority, a particular form of logical fallacy. A recording engineer who might argue against cables making a difference in SQ cannot win the argument based ONLY on his credentials as a recording engineer. A chemistry major or even a EE cannot win any physics argument based on his credentials. |
| Post removed |
